black vs white receivers...hmm?

[Guest]

The blacks would have...


Jerry Rice..Chris Carter..Art Monk..Andre Reed..Henry Ellard..Randy Moss..Terrell Owens..Michael Irvin..Sterling Sharpe.


Whites...


Steve Largent..Lance Alworth..Don Maynard..Fred Biletnikoff..Don Hutson..Charley Hennighan..Elroy "Crazy Legs" Hirsch..Tommy McDonald..Bobby Joe Conrad.


Close huh?....hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hell let's do the running backs while I'm at it.


blacks...Barry Sanders, Jimmy Brown, Tony Dorsett, Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Emmitt Smith, O.J.Simpson, Marcus Allen, Franco Harris.


whites...John Riggins, Jim Taylor, Larry Czonka, Hugh McElhenny, Ernie Nevers, Steve Van Buren, Bronko Nagurski, The Galloping Ghost, The Four Horsemen, Dickie Post.


close huh?....hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Edited by: Black Ace

 

[Observer]

It is an interesting list for several reasons. One thing that struck me is that some of those black receivers were so slow that they would never have been given a chance if they were white guys. My grandma could have beaten Carter or Rice in a sprint (but she was too short). But they had great hands and could concentrate in the clutch, and so are now known as great players.

The white list has some slow ones also.

It's kind of a good point you implicitly bring up here: greatness as a wide receiver is not about who can run the fastest 40, but rather, who can actually produce.Edited by: Observer

 

[Guest]

It is an interesting list for several reasons. One thing that struck me is that some of those black receivers were so slow that they would never have been given a chance if they were white guys. My grandma could have beaten Carter or Rice in a sprint (but she was too short). But they had great hands and could concentrate in the clutch, and so are now known as great players.

The white list has some slow ones also.

It's kind of a good point you implicitly bring up here: greatness as a wide receiver is not about who can run the fastest 40, but rather, who can actually produce.

When the Raiders had Fred Biletnikoff and Cliff "world class 9.2" Branch it was the slowish Biletnikoff who was the more feared. He's also the one in the HOF not Branch. It's the ability to make those "move the chains" catchs that really count. While guys like Branch, Bob Hayes, Homer Jones,Warren Wells, Randy Moss can score quickly they seldom do. It's keeping the ball away from the opposition that matters. Yes...move those chains!Edited by: Black Ace

 

[Observer]

Brutal, Maximus, Texas Tech, etc.

Just wondering if you've had time to find out more about how fast Travis Jervey really was?

Actually, he may have been faster than Bo Jackson. I thought Jackson had run a 10.13 100m, but it looks like he was at 10.44.

Herschel Walker was fast on the track and I thought he looked fast in college the few times I saw him, but he sure looked slow when he played for the Vikings (I'm from Minnesota, so that's when I mostly saw him).

 

[Freethinker]

To say that speed is the key to success at wide receiver and running back is only partly true. There are many other skills needed like strength, good hands, good vision, intelligence, etc. If you watch the NFL now you notice the large number of dropped passes. Black receiver are targeted all game yet they drop numerous easy passes, while whites are targeted far less but catch almost everything thrown their way. Terrell Owens is always a leader in dropped passes. His "elite" stats are a hoax because he is targeted so frequently.

It would be impossible to ignore how whites dominate the tight end position. The thing that needs to be remembered is that most of these guys WERE receivers until racist coaches at H.S., college or even NFL levels forced them to bulk up. White running backs are always switched other positions as well.

To argue black skill players vs. white skill players is a waste of time on this site. We are aware of the racial dynamics that occur with scouting and coaching and the discrimination that white athletes face. Of course the number of successful black athletes greatly outnumber the whites. These black athletes listed were great players, however we will never know how great the white list could have been if given the equal chance.

This is as much energy as I'd like to put to this......good day

 

[Guest]

BA Moss's talent is beating the bump, as a Packer fan I seen his hand pump more often than I wanted to as he beat the man coverage (black DBs).

 

[bigunreal]

Black Ace, your contentions are absurd. Black players were preferred at RB since at least the mid-1960s. The weeding out process of white RBs began then. It's obviously no surprise that you can name a lot more "great" black RBs than white ones. The same thing goes for white WRs, although a lot of them started in the NFL until about the early 1970s.

If you really have an interest in this subject, then read the archives here. There are a myriad of examples of white RBs, WRs and DBs with great production in high school, and the same kinds of measurables as the top black players at those positions, who were ignored by all the biggest college programs and/or instantly slotted into acceptable positions like bulked up blocking fullback or tight end.

Your lists also left off quite a few white players. White RBs like John David Crow, Paul Hornung, Donny Anderson, Jim Otis, Ed Podolak, Tom Matte, Ken Willard, Mark Van Eagan, Marv Hubbard, Rocky Bleier and many, many others.
In most cases, their numbers were held down, and careers shortened, because the teams they played for spent a high draft choice on a young black RB or two. The colleges were already, during the 1960s, churning them out in great numbers. In some cases, potentially great white RBs (Nick Eddy and Johnny Musso immediately spring to mind) were constantly injured. In those cases, the teams in question simply didn't have the patience with them that they would for talented black RBs that were chronically injured. I'm still not sure what happened with John Cappeletti, the last white RB to win the Heisman Trophy. Ed Marinaro was turned into a third down type of receiving back, Tommy Vardell was never given the chance to be a full time runner and eventually had to bulk up to play fullback. The stories are all different, but the results were the same; for whatever reason, these white backs were replaced by blacks, most of them #1 or #2 draft picks.

Your WR list is similarly incomplete. Raymond Berry was universally considered the greatest receiver of all time for many years. He still has the best hands I ever saw (with the possible exception of Jerry Smith, whose absence from the Hall of Fame makes it a mockery). Dan Abramowicz was outstanding on an awful team. There were numerous white WRs who were obviously fast enough to catch a lot of bombs (when DBs were permitted to play a much more physical style than they can now)- Jack Snow, Lance Rentzel, Carroll Dale and many others. How could you leave Gary Collins off your list? He was a member of the all 1960s decade team, yet somehow isn't in the Hall of Fame.

White RBs and WRs, as well as CBs, excelled in the NFL for decades. They didn't suddenly become extinct. They have been systematically discriminated against by a Caste System that seems to want an entirely black league.

 

[Don Wassall]

Brutal, Maximus, Texas Tech, etc.

Good call, it was Brutal. He's been coming on here periodically since about June of 2005. Always makes the same lists and same arguments, and is quickly banned. He's as predictable as a wind-up doll, and possibly slightly smarter than one.

 

[Ground Fighter]

  The blacks would have...


Jerry Rice..Chris Carter..Art Monk..Andre Reed..Henry Ellard..Randy Moss..Terrell Owens..Michael Irvin..Sterling Sharpe.


Whites...


Steve Largent..Lance Alworth..Don Maynard..Fred Biletnikoff..Don Hutson..Charley Hennighan..Elroy "Crazy Legs" Hirsch..Tommy McDonald..Bobby Joe Conrad.

Ok, now lets "revise" that White reciever list juuuuuuuust a shmidgen, Mr. Brutal. My list is a little more "up-to-date".

Tim Dwight, Don Beebe, Bill Schroeder, Wes Welker, Don Maynard, Lance Alworth, Kevin Kasper, Wayne Chrebet, Ed McCaffrey and yes, even Mr. Cocaine himself, Matt Jones.

There, now thats better. Edited by: Ground Fighter

 

[whiteathlete33]

I woke up this morning and noticed this clowns messages. I knew who it was. He posted basically the same thing several weeks ago.

 

[Observer]

Brutal, Maximus, Texas Tech, etc.

Good call, it was Brutal.  He's been coming on here periodically since about June of 2005.  Always makes the same lists and same arguments, and is quickly banned.  He's as predictable as a wind-up doll, and possibly slightly smarter than one.

I have run across Black Ace, Brutal, Texas, etc. on track forums in the past. Here is a link to a thread that will throw some perspective (he is Texas in the thread)Fred Kuller - Greatest White Sprinter in US History?

I don't know that Black Ace is anti-white at all, but he is as stubborn as a mule, and just enjoys a good argument. (Never thought about it until now, but maybe that is the definition of a troll?) Note paulthefan's comment about dirt tracks and sprint times that he addresses to Texas:

well at least you admit that today greats would runner slower on dirt.. well that is a good start... to the best of my knowledge this is the first time you have said as much...I can not find through reams brutal texas discussion on the history of sprinting where you have felt compelled to even mention this aspect of the sport... very strange.. but this is progress...

Hilarious... if only paulthefan could see the commotion here!

 

[whiteathlete33]

Guys, the thing that gets me down is that when clowns likes this post garbage, everyone posts. We need to most more and positive messages. One idiot shouldn't be an excuse to get us going.

 

[Cassiodorus]

" When the Raiders had Fred Biletnikoff and Cliff "world class 9.2" Branch it was the slowish Biletnikoff who was the more feared. He's also the one in the HOF not Branch."

I don't know how to determine "fear." Biletnikoff had more career receptions and is in the HOF. In addition, there is no "Branch Award" for college WRs.

 

[Ground Fighter]

" When the Raiders had Fred Biletnikoff and Cliff "world class 9.2" Branch it was the slowish Biletnikoff who was the more feared. He's also the one in the HOF not Branch."

I don't know how to determine "fear." Biletnikoff had more career receptions and is in the HOF. In addition, there is no "Branch Award" for college WRs.

Hmmmm...Cassiodorus. That user-name sounds familiar. You're an Am-Ren poster as well, aren't you?

 

[Cassiodorus]

" When the Raiders had Fred Biletnikoff and Cliff "world class 9.2" Branch it was the slowish Biletnikoff who was the more feared. He's also the one in the HOF not Branch."

I don't know how to determine "fear." Biletnikoff had more career receptions and is in the HOF. In addition, there is no "Branch Award" for college WRs.

Hmmmm...Cassiodorus. That user-name sounds familiar. You're an Am-Ren poster as well, aren't you?

Yes.

 

[dwid]

You know posts like this one, and "Reality", and other ones like it in the past, whether it be one person or multiple people, why do they do it? It does not seem like they are coming here to convince us that blacks are better, but rather to convince themselves because deep down inside they know that the black superiority myth is a lie and totally absurd. You were proved wrong in "reality" and you will be proved wrong again. You are grasping at straws to find some reason to believe the media's lies.

 

[dwid]

"Ok, now lets "revise" that White reciever list juuuuuuuust a shmidgen, Mr. Brutal. My list is a little more "up-to-date".

Tim Dwight, Don Beebe, Bill Schroeder, Wes Welker, Don Maynard, Lance Alworth, Kevin Kasper, Wayne Chrebet, Ed McCaffrey and yes, even Mr. Cocaine himself, Matt Jones.

There, now thats better."

Don't forget Kevin Curtis who ran a hand timed 4.21 and 4.35 at the combine, Mike Furrey, Kevin Walter, Jordy Nelson, Drew Bennet, Anthony Gonzalez, Ricky Proehl, and Brandon Stokely come to mind. Funny thing about Stokley, last night on MNF they were talking about the glory days when the colts had 3 1,000 yard receivers, they mentioned Wayne, Harrison and then tony kornheiser acted like he couldn't remember who the third one was like he was insignificant. finally like a minute later someone else said stokley. So some of these guys have proven they can gather over 1,000 yards in receiving when given a chance, others on the list werent given enough playing time to prove it, some still have time to prove it, while others weren't even given a chance to see the field during the regular season despite great preseason and training camp performances (Mike Hass), and others who weren't even lucky enough to even get a chance to prove how good they were even in preseason. I am sure if you search there is a post or two somewhere on this site about all of the good white guys who got screwed over and never given a chance. There are more White receivers who are doing well in college right now, some who will excel in the nfl if given the chance, but only time will tell if they get that chance.

lets not forget about tight ends that are asked to bulk up to play instead of wr, look at greg olsen, this guy runs a 4.5 even at 255 he would be great as a wr(in fact i think he would produce alot better there), dallas clark plays well in the slot, and there are tons of other great white tight ends who outnumber the great black ones that the media loves to overhype such as Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates
Edited by: dwid

 

[dwid]

i truly hope this poster is not banned because that will only confirm his beliefs and he will walk away "i said blah blah blah and they banned me, so i MUST be right"

 

[Maple Leaf]

Brutal, Maximus, Texas Tech, etc.

Good call, it was Brutal.  He's been coming on here periodically since about June of 2005.  Always makes the same lists and same arguments, and is quickly banned.  He's as predictable as a wind-up doll, and possibly slightly smarter than one.

If you guys really wanted to make him drop his pants for all of us to laugh at why don't you put up a white/black quarterback list? I mean, if he really wants to embarrass himself?

Or, if you really feel mean, why not put up a list of white/black scientists? Oh, now THAT really, really would be a funny comparison!

A word to the not-so-wise (Brutal): be carefull to mind your manners when you are in another man's house.

 

[DWFan]

Brutal, Maximus, Texas Tech, etc.

Good call, it was Brutal.  He's been coming on here periodically since about June of 2005.  Always makes the same lists and same arguments, and is quickly banned.  He's as predictable as a wind-up doll, and possibly slightly smarter than one.

If you guys really wanted to make him drop his pants for all of us to laugh at why don't you put up a white/black quarterback list? I mean, if he really wants to embarrass himself?

Or, if you really feel mean, why not put up a list of white/black scientists? Oh, now THAT really, really would be a funny comparison!

A word to the not-so-wise (Brutal): be carefull to mind your manners when you are in another man's house.

If we have to have just one ultimate comparison list, I want to vote for philosophers.

 

[ManifestDestiny]

The blacks would have...


Jerry Rice..Chris Carter..Art Monk..Andre Reed..Henry Ellard..Randy Moss..Terrell Owens..Michael Irvin..Sterling Sharpe.


Whites...


Steve Largent..Lance Alworth..Don Maynard..Fred Biletnikoff..Don Hutson..Charley Hennighan..Elroy "Crazy Legs" Hirsch..Tommy McDonald..Bobby Joe Conrad.


Close huh?....hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hell let's do the running backs while I'm at it.


blacks...Barry Sanders, Jimmy Brown, Tony Dorsett, Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Emmitt Smith, O.J.Simpson, Marcus Allen, Franco Harris.


whites...John Riggins, Jim Taylor, Larry Czonka, Hugh McElhenny, Ernie Nevers, Steve Van Buren, Bronko Nagurski, The Galloping Ghost, The Four Horsemen, Dickie Post.


close huh?....hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can say without a doubt that neither of those lists are even close. Nobody in their right mind could argue that Randy Moss and Jerry Rice are worse than any "white" receiver. It's not even close.

Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, heck even Emmitt Smith are all way better than any of the "white" runningbacks mentioned.

I think white athletes can be just as good as black athletes but this argument has no logic at all and is downright asinine to even suggest that the lists are remotely close.

 

[chris371]

What made emmitt smith better than for instance, Mike alstott? The fact that he was slower and weaker, perhaps?

 

[FootballRules]

Wow, I got banned because I said the lists weren't even close? I actually thought this site was legitimate, I came here to discuss the issue but if you just ban people for no reason then that is pathetic. I never said anything bad about white people, I just said the lists aren't even close. Open your eyes and you'll see that Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, etc. were better players than any of the other receivers listed in the "white" category.

If you don't want to accept that, then fine. But it has nothing to do with the color of their skin, the fact is that the three aforementioned players are better.

As for the assertion that Mike Alstott was a better player than Emmitt Smith, you guys need to give that a rest. Alstott was a great fullback, I liked the guy, he was a big and powerful runner, but he was not better than Emmitt Smith in terms of being a pure runningback. Smith was faster, more elusive, and more durable. Not to mention Smith has rushed for more yards than Alstott. Mike was a great blocker, was better at breaking tackles, and definitely was stronger, but that doesn't make him a better back.

I'm sure I'll get banned again for this, but you guys need to wake up to the fact that just because whites are stereotyped against in positions (in other words, yes, the caste system is in fact real) does not mean that black athletes all of the sudden are no longer good or that player X is just as talented as player Z but he is getting discriminated against for being white.

Believe it or not, there are some legitmate white players who were not good enough to make it at positions like wide receiver, runningback, and cornerback. Sometimes black players are better. Sometimes white players are better. But some of the statements made here are absurd.

I don't like when people play the race card but I cannot for the life of me think of any reason someone would think of Randy Moss and say "You know, he's not as good as Steve Largent". The only thing I can think of is that you just like one player over another because of his skin color. If that's the case, aren't you propogating the very thing you say you are trying to prevent? I thought this site was about white players not getting a fair shot at normally "black" positions, not that all of the sudden every white runningback was secretly better than every black runningback.</span>

I really hope I don't get banned because I am very interested in discussing the topic of race without having people make absurd claims like the OP in this topic.

I do think some white players are good at runningback, receiver, corner, etc. and I do think some don't get a fair chance, but that doesn't excuse racism.

 

[Don Wassall]

What do you mean you werebanned???All of your "Manifest Destiny" posts are still up.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Cry me a river, ManifestDestiny/FootballRules.