Black QB’s and sustained drives

[White Shogun]

So White Shogun, what positions do you think blacks or whites have an advantage at in football?
I will evaluate any position where I think there is a small disparity.

Slight advantage for elite whites:
QB, DE, MLB, Slot WR, RB in power formations or zone blocking schemes.

Slight advantage for elite blacks:
FS, speed RB or RB in spread, Split End WR.

More noticeable advantage for whites:
TE, FB, OL.

More noticeable advantage for blacks:
CB.

Basically no discernible difference (racially neutral):
OLB, SS, Flanker WR.

Basically overall this shows whites might be slightly better football players and the only positions blacks would have an edge at are ones where speed is crucial.

I'd add QB and MLB to discernible advantage for whites, and WR more even, which means there would be way more white WR than black given their larger percentage of the population.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I do agree that WR overall is even b/c I have Slot WR as a slight advantage for whites, Flanker Even and Split End slightly for blacks.

I also think that the old system of FBs being used as power runners was brilliant and confusing for defenses to prepare for two runners. This would increase the carries for whites, even though I only have HB at 60% white or so. FB should be 85-90% white. Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

BTW RBs Jacob Hester or Peyton Hillis would be perfect for power formations and zone blocking schemes as runners. Tre Smith, Danny Woodhead, Cory McCaffrey, Sam McGuffie, Brandon Wegher, Anthony Urbania etc. would be great in speed systems or spread offenses. So there are all types of runners, these of course are just tendencies.

 

[GWTJ]

ToughJ,

Your continued use of the general population ratios has no bearing when comparing the talent level of QB's. The gap between the talent level of the best white QB vs the best black QB is huge. And the gap would become even wider if you compared the 2nd best white QB with the 2nd best black QB and so on and so on. By the time you got to the 5th best white QB and the 5th best black QB the gap would be so big you could fly the Starship Enterprise through it.

How about taking into consideration how many black QB's are starting at the major college level and observing how they transition into the pro game. That would prove that your statement is way off base.

And stop clinging to McNabb as some kind of great QB. He is no HOF QB. He has been inconsistent his whole career. Look at his stats game to game, no consistency at all. Add in his inability to stay on the field and you have a very unreliable QB. I should also add that a lot of his yardage totals were simply Westbrook taking a dump off down the field.

Again, when one compares the body of work of the best white QB's to the body of work of the best black QB's, it becomes obvious to anyone paying attention just how much better white QB's are than their black counterparts.

Black QB's, even the starters, are often so lacking in quaterback skills and fundamentals that the whole offense has to be changed so the black QB can produce. Basically the coaches turn the black QB into a kind of hybrid QB/RB and keep his throws as simple as possible.

Anyone who tells me that white QB's are only "slightly" better than black QB's is telling me he doesn't know football.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Your argument on the second best white QB Manning being "way" ahead of Gerrard is valid. But I'd have to disagree on McNabb not being good.

McNabb has virtually identical QB rating numbers to Brett Favre and could be on the level of a Brees or Carson Palmer if he is healthy again this year. McNabb is very talented when he is "healthy", although not on Brady or Manning's level.

Just look at how Donovan came out in his first game this year after having a whole healthy training camp. I think when you consider that blacks are only 13% of the populous, they don't do "terribly" at QB in the scheme of things. I do agree though that most blacks though that do well in option or spread offenses in college, don't progress well in the NFL.

But as I said, I don't think there is a black Tom Brady out there. It's like saying there will be a black or mostly black Physicist on par with Einstein, not going to happen IMO. There is a bit of a math and science gap for sure IMO regardless of "cultural" factors. The races are all a little different that's just how God made us. Of course the genders are different too.

A black Einsteinian comedian could happen. Some of my favorite comics or comic writers are black. Eddie Murphy and Dave Chappelle are hilarious.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

And McNabb is not only a short dump off QB, his career yards per attempt would prove that. Of course if you have Westbrook you are often going to utilize him often, so the last few years his yards per attempt are down a little regardless of injury. If McNabb can stay on the field from now until he is 38 or so and keeps his rate of play up he will be a HOF QB.

 

[Bart]

Some of my favorite comics or comic writers are black.

You certainly are consistent Riggins - I'll give you that.

 

[White Shogun]

If McNabb can stay on the field from now until he is 38 or so and keeps his rate of play up he will be a HOF QB.

I have no doubt McNabb will be in the HOF, regardless of merit.

 

[GWTJ]

ToughJ,

There are 32 starting NFL QB's. Do you have any other argument besides McNabb to support your argument that white QB's are only "slightly" better than black QB's? Anything at all?

The reality of the QB situation in the NFL is that McNabb is a competent QB. Culpepper had one Pro Bowl year and Gerrard has one competent year on his resume and that's it. Out of 32 starting QB spots available each season in the last ten years, there have been exactly 3 good seasons out of the available 320 that black QB's can be proud of.

That consistent lack of production, regardless of population ratios, falls far, far short of being "slightly" worse than white QB's.

This discussion is starting to feel like an exercise in futility.

 

[Bear Backer]

If McNabb can stay on the field from now until he is 38 or so and keeps his rate of play up he will be a HOF QB.

I have no doubt McNabb will be in the HOF, regardless of merit.

He is an absolute for the HOF in my book despite merit, because he is black and he has had a slightly above average career and has shown some longevity. If he was a white QB however, there is however no way he would be considered a possible future HOF'er. When Healthy McNabb has been a top 10 QB in the league, but only one year has he ever put up elite numbers in terms of yards, touchdowns and completion percentage. I think unless he turns around and proves he can play productively over the long haul this season, he may have even fallen from the top 10 given his age and history of injury. McNabb is definitely overrated and has never been an elite in my book. Good yes, Elite no. As much as I dislike Rush Limbaugh he was absolutely correct about McNabb.

Right now I think that the rankings in terms of pure ability are:

1. Brady *
2. Manning *

* Debatable

3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Carson Palmer
5. Drew Brees
6. Tony Romo
7. Favre
8. Jay Cutler
9. Donovan McNabb
10. Eli Manning

McNabb and Eli are very borderline on this list and could just as easily arguably be replaced with guys like Kurt Warner (who if healthy is a very good candidate for top 10 with his arm) Matt Hasselbeck or Philip Rivers. That is not to even mentioning guys who have a very good chance of emerging and passing McNabb in the next couple of years like Aaron Rogers, Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco, or perhaps even Brady Quinn. All of these guys have good enough arms to be more than just game managers and have the potential to be very accurate passers in the NFL, which an elite QB needs to have. McNabb has the arm, but has never shown the consistent accuracy to be an elite QB because after all these years, due to poor mechanics he still has a tendency to make poor, off blanaced throws. Edited by: Bear Backer

 

[Bart]

Itamazes me how peoplealways placeMcNabb in theHOF, but would never consider JeffGarciafor the same, or evenrank him agoodQB.He had a stellar career in the CFL, before getting an opportunity to play in the NFL. at the ripe age of 30. Let us compare his stats with Donovan's. Formatting is screwy. Justpay attention to the bottom linecareer totals in highlights. Check out the interesting run stats too. Donovan has playedmore games.


Garcia



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McNabb



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[White Shogun]

Bart, not sure if you were referring to my post but I believe McNabb will get in because of his skin color.

What I noticed in the stat comparison you posted is almost 2500 more yards for McNabb in 6 more games, but Garcia actually threw for MORE TD's in fewer games, and also lost 1000 less yards by taking 139 fewer sacks.

You're right - it's amazing that McNabb is entrenched as a starter and lauded so highly, yet Garcia bounces around year to year and has to fight for a starting job, when essentially they are the same quarterback.

 

[Don Wassall]

One big difference between Garcia and McNabb is that it's highly unlikely that McNabb will still be playingin the NFL when he's 38 at any level much less a high one. Garcia apparently is struggling out of the gate this year but led his team to an unexpected division title last year and made the Pro Bowl.


Not a one of the "new breed" of "athletic" quarterbacks has shown good staying power. McNabb is only 31, still relatively young for a starting QB,but the Eagles were worried enough to draft his likely replacement in 2007 in Kevin Kolb.


The saying is that football players enjoy short careers, which is true on average, but just notice how many black players at all positions are washed up by their late 20s and early 30s.


Edited by: Don Wassall

 

[Bart]

Bart, not sure if you were referring to my post but I believe McNabb will get in because of his skin color.

No, I wasreferring to the typicalfootball fan and media.The general perception is that Garcia is the classic over achievinglittle guy,with a weak arm, and lotsof grit.Plucky guy, but nothing special. McNabb on the other hand is recognized as a superior athlete, several rungs above Jeff on the ladder of quarterbacking excellence and success.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I actually completely forgot about Garcia in my rankings of QBs, he is injured right now and Griese is set to start. Yeah he is definitely a good player. Garcia was Pro-Bowl caliber in San Fran. Kurt Warner is no longer a top 10 QB. He has been struggling in the red-zone most currently and doesn't make his reads nearly as fast as pre-concussion on the Rams. I don't know, it could just be a mental thing?

 

[GWTJ]

Anyone here remember Dave Krieg. He never got much love from the media or fans. All he has done in his 19 year career is throw for over 38,000 yards, throw 261 TD's, throw for more than 3,000 yards six times and he has a career QB rating of 81.5. Those numbers are really over a 16 year period as he never played in his 1st season or his last 2 seasons.

Comparing him to two of the best black QB's we see that he is as good as them statistically yet he is dismissed as a journeyman in the minds of the drunk white fans.

Here are some career stats comparing Krieg with Warren Moon and Steve McNair:

passing yards + attempts + comp. %:

Moon -- 49,325 in 6823 att for a 58.4 comp. %
Krieg -- 38,147 in 5311 att for a 58.5 comp. %
McNair-- 31,304 in 4544 att for a 60.1 comp. %

career passer rating:

Moon -- 80.9
Krieg -- 81.5
McNair-- 82.8

passing TD's:

Moon -- 291
Krieg -- 261
McNair-- 174

won loss record as starting QB:

Moon -- 102-101
Krieg -- 98-77
McNair-- 91-62

playoff record as starting QB:

Moon -- 3-7
Krieg -- 3-6
McNair-- 5-5

How about rushing stats - att + yards + average:

Moon -- 543 att for 1736 yds for avg of 3.2
Krieg -- 417 att for 1261 yds for avg of 3.0
McNair-- 669 att for 3590 yds for avg of 5.4

There you go, the top two black QB's compare to a competent white QB. Let's add one more QB into this comparison. A top white QB. Joe Montana is considered one of the top white QB's of all time. Let's see how he measures up.

passing yards + attempts + comp. %:

Montana -- 40,551 in 5291 att for a 63.2 comp. %

career passer rating:

Montana -- 92.3

passing TD's:

Montana -- 273

won loss record as starting QB:

Montana -- 117-47

playoff record as starting QB:

Montana -- 17-7

How about rushing stats - att + yards + average:

Montana -- 457 att for 1676 yds for avg of 3.7


The word "slightly" doesn't quite describe the difference in talent level between white and black QB's. Even when comparing the best blacks have to offer they still fall way short.

A better word to describe the talent difference between white and black QB's would be "monumental".

 

[White Shogun]

A better word to describe the talent difference between white and black QB's would be "monumental".

Or, looking at it from the other side's point of view, the word to use would be 'disastrous.'

 

[Bart]

Anyone here remember Dave Krieg. He never got much love from the media or fans.

passing TD's: INT's
Moon -- 291 233
Krieg -- 261199

You're right about Dave Krieg. I have added interceptions to your TD comparison. Moon had 1,500 more passing attempts than Krieg, which accounts for thediscrepency in total yards, yet their TD's - INT's are relatively close.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Yeah, but McNair in his prime scrambled better than Kreig and almost won the Super-Bowl GWTJ, if not for a goal-line tackle. McNair's later career is where it went downhill, kind of like McNabb's has been going.

But comparing Krieg to Moon they are virtually equal it seems that is valid.

I guess McNabb so far is the only black QB that ever really will deserve the hall of fame, if he ends up playing for 6 more years or so.

I honestly feel McNabb could become as high as the 4th best QB in the league again if he avoids injury. However, I would agree that Brady, Manning and Rothlisberger are a step above the rest.

 

[Tom Iron]

Looks to me as if we've past the high water mark of black QBs. From here on, it's ebb tide for them. Coming into this year, I thought Jacksonville might do something, but they imploded with their black QB and are just about out on the playoff race.

In the next few years, there'll be a decided moving away from the black QB era and at some point it'll be back to drafting black QBs as defensive backs or running back, etc. Nobody will seriously draft them anymore as QBs. I wonder what Al Davis is going to do with Jmarcus Russell?

Tom Iron...

 

[icsept]

Record in games started by Black quarterbacks so far this year:

D. Garrard4-6
D. McNabb4-5-1
D. Culpepper 0-2
T. Jackson0-2
J. Campbell6-4
J. Russell2-7
S. Wallace1-3
V. Young1-0

Total 18-29-1, winning percentage .383

The record speaks for itself.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

icsept, these facts are too much for somepeople tohandle. Yes, the record speaks volumes! Edited by: Colonel_Reb

 

[dwid]

why do black qb's tend to have accuracy issues and why do alot of black wr's do not possess the hand eye coordination to catch consistently? the intelligence part of being a qb can be debated by nature vs nurture, well just about every excuse you can think of, but these two other things i wonder about too

 

[dwid]

Record in games started by Black quarterbacks so far this year:

D. Garrard4-6
D. McNabb4-5-1
D. Culpepper 0-2
T. Jackson0-2
J. Campbell6-4
J. Russell2-7
S. Wallace1-3
V. Young1-0

Total 18-29-1, winning percentage .383

The record speaks for itself.

taking a quick glance at that i first thought it was attempts/completions haha, the 2-7 jarmacus russel, i think he had a game like that

 

[whiteathlete33]

The record is just part of it. The only black quarterback who plays half decent is McNabb and he too is inconsistent.Jason Campbell sometimes have good games as does Garrard but thats about it.

 

[Bear Backer]

why do black qb's tend to have accuracy issues and why do alot of black wr's do not possess the hand eye coordination to catch consistently? the intelligence part of being a qb can be debated by nature vs nurture, well just about every excuse you can think of, but these two other things i wonder about too

I believe black QB's tend to have poor accuracy as a group for two reasons. The first reason is that they tend to have poor mechanics. All of the black QB's who have been drafted high in the draft over the last several years (Donovan McNabb, Daunte Culpepper, Akili Smith, Michael Vick, Vince Young, cantaloupe shoulders Russell) have all had questionable mechanics. They have poor mechanics because they have never developed them. black QB's tend rely on their legs over their arms and in general as is the trend among black athletes in all sports, favor flash over substance. The other reason is obviously because blacks are falsely elevated at the QB position. Almost any black player who shows a good amount of success at the collegiate level, who doesn't completely have a noodle arm or who isn't a midget, can expect to be given a shot in the NFL. The NFL and media are so desirous for black QB's to increase representation that if you are black you already have a leg up on the competition. It is nothing short of a form of affirmitive action. Marginal prospects are elevated to mid rounders and Guys like McNabb, Vick, Russell, Culpepper, Young etc who have or at least have had some raw talent are automatically elevated to savior status.