"Allah" feud

[FootballDad]

This is something that I've seen the last few days in the news, how Malaysian Catholic churches are being attacked by Muslims over the use of the word/name "Allah" Here is a link to the latest news on this. The Muslim attacks are nothing surprising, it's what they do. And the Catholic position isn't either, as the history of the RCC is rife with dogma and decrees designed to water down correct Christian theology to make it more "palatable" to the masses. Such as the position of the RCC that Islam and the RCC worship the same God, when a cursory examinination of the Quran and the Scriptures reveal a polar opposite deity.
The God of the Bible is revealed to us as "YHWH", rendered as Yahweh, Jehovah, I Am. And to substitute his name with the god of Islam's name "Allah" is sickening. The ignorant position of the RCC and the vast majority is that "Allah" simply is the Arabic word for "God". This is patently false, and shows that these "church leaders" are fools and have not even glanced through the Quran to find out the truth. The Arabic word for "God", according the the Quran is "ilah", while "Allah" is revealed as a personal name. Here are a few surahs for your enjoyment, it's always good to make sure that the folks here at CF are the most knowledgeable people on the planet:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5>
<T>
<TR =row2>
<TD =source>Qur'an 20:8</TD>
<TD =koran>"Allah! There is no Ilahsave Him. His are the most beautiful Names. To Him belong the most beautiful attributes."</TD></TR></T></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5>
<T>
<TR =row1>
<TD =source>Qur'an 20:14</TD>
<TD =koran>"Verily, I am Allah. No Ilahmay be worshiped but I. So serve you Me, and perform regular prostration prayer for My praise. Verily the Hour is coming. I am almost hiding it from Myself."</TD></TR></T></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5>
<T>
<TR =row2>
<TD =source>Qur'an 52:43</TD>
<TD =koran>"Have they an ilahother than Allah?</TD></TR></T></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5>
<T>
<TR =row1>
<TD =source>Qur'an 3:62</TD>
<TD =koran>"This is the true account, the true explanation: There is no Ilahexcept Allah."


</TD></TR></T></TABLE>

 

[jaxvid]

"Verily the Hour is coming. I am almost hiding it from Myself."

 

[FootballDad]

I noticed in the story that they have been putting the name "Allah" in their Malaysian bible translations for "God". This is the exact equivalent of substituting the name "Baal" for "God". What were Moses and theprophetsthinking?They could have tried to pacify all of those Baal worshippers by using that name instead!

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

can't we all just get along?

 

[White Shogun]

SEND IN THE MARINES.

Where are you getting these translated verses? I'm no Muslim by any means, but I see these weird translations pop up in emails and on Christian websites sometimes, and they're not really accurate (not that it matters.)

Sura 20:1-16 [20:14] "I am GOD; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) to remember Me.

[20:15] "The Hour (end of the world) is surely coming; I will keep it almost hidden, for each soul must be paid for its works.

[20:16] "Do not be diverted therefrom by those who do not believe in it - those who pursue their own opinions - lest you fall.

It doesn't really say Allah is hiding it sort of from himself, although that is pretty funny. Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Observer]

FootballDad, your etymologies are much exaggerated. If an Englishman were to say "the god" and a German were to say "Gott", would you blow a gasket about "patently false", etc. etc.? You are smart enough to know that Muhammad did not invent "Allah" and that the root of this word for "God" goes back to deepest antiquity.

Probably you are offended by our Germanic useage also?

You may have reason to think that Islam is a tool of the devil, but that in itself does not seem to me to be a sufficient reason to discard the term "the-god". Or do you assert that this is not really the derivation of the word "Allah"? If a person were at the foot of the Cross and heard Jesus cry out "Eloi, Eloi..." would an inexperienced ear even hear the difference between that and "Allah"?

 

[FootballDad]

SEND IN THE MARINES.

Where are you getting these translated verses? I'm no Muslim by any means, but I see these weird translations pop up in emails and on Christian websites sometimes, and they're not really accurate (not that it matters.)

Sura 20:1-16 [20:14] "I am GOD; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) to remember Me.

[20:15] "The Hour (end of the world) is surely coming; I will keep it almost hidden, for each soul must be paid for its works.

[20:16] "Do not be diverted therefrom by those who do not believe in it - those who pursue their own opinions - lest you fall.

It doesn't really say Allah is hiding it sort of from himself, although that is pretty funny.

I have 5 different English translations of the Quran. My favorite is the Shakir.

 

[FootballDad]

FootballDad, your etymologies are much exaggerated. If an Englishman were to say "the god" and a German were to say "Gott", would you blow a gasket about "patently false", etc. etc.? You are smart enough to know that Muhammad did not invent "Allah" and that the root of this word for "God" goes back to deepest antiquity.

Probably you are offended by our Germanic useage also?

You may have reason to think that Islam is a tool of the devil, but that in itself does not seem to me to be a sufficient reason to discard the term "the-god". Or do you assert that this is not really the derivation of the word "Allah"? If a person were at the foot of the Cross and heard Jesus cry out "Eloi, Eloi..." would an inexperienced ear even hear the difference between that and "Allah"?

You miss my point. The Arabic word "Allah" is, and always has been, a personal name. For generations before Muhammad walked the planet, it was the name of an idol in a tawaghit in Mecca. "Ilah" is word in Religious Arabic that simply means "god", like in "my god", or "gott".
Many apologists try to make the claim that "Allah" is simply a contraction of the words "al ilah", but this theory has no evidence to back it up, and is an untenable grasping for straws. So going back to "deepest antiquity" for the name/word "Allah" would involve reading up on the Quraish and the generations prior to Muhammad in central Arabia.

As for Germanic usage, of what? The "J"s for Jesus, Jehovah, Joshua?

As for Eloi/Allah, that is a senseless comparison, as there was no "Allah" in Jesus' time for people to mistake.

 

[Observer]

FootballDad, there are Christians in the Bethlehem area that can trace their lineage back to hundreds of years before the invention of Islam (some of the families with the olive wood artwork). What word for "God" do these Christians use? Isn't it "Allah", at least in part?

Why do you think that a contraction of "al-ilah" is grasping at straws? Because it has become a personal name does not mean that its origin is in any thing other than the obvious "the-god". Or do you have other evidence?

On the Germanic useage, I meant "God, Gott".

If we are to cast away every word that is used badly by whatever group, then we would soon all be mute. Yes, it is important to use care with words. But just because the name "Britney" has taken on a trashy connotation in recent years does not mean that the name is intrinsically "patently false".

If they had instead decided to use the term "ilah" in the Malaysian translation, then the criticism would have been "you should not use the term ilah 'god', because there are many gods (lower-case 'g')". Whether you like the term "Allah" or not (and whether or not you agree with the etymology "al-ilah" as "the [main] god"), it is undeniable that the word "Allah" does now imply ONE god; rather than "ilah", which is a more general term, I think; is it not?

I don't think textbooks in America should used the word "Allah" for "God", but maybe it is just proper useage in speech (not in writing, apparently) in Malaysia to use "Allah" or "Allah _something_"?

Late note: "Allah" as the term for the Christian God has been used in Malaysian print for 450 years. It is the normal and accepted useage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllahEdited by: Observer

 

[FootballDad]

FootballDad, there are Christians in the Bethlehem area that can trace their lineage back to hundreds of years before the invention of Islam (some of the families with the olive wood artwork). What word for "God" do these Christians use? Isn't it "Allah", at least in part?

Like many words in the religious sphere of the Arabic language, it is surmised that "Allah" is a loanword from the Aramaic/Syriac "alaha", which, although the inflection is different, is similar.

Why do you think that a contraction of "al-ilah" is grasping at straws? Because it has become a personal name does not mean that its origin is in any thing other than the obvious "the-god". Or do you have other evidence?

The etymological derivation of "Allah" as a contraction of "al-ilah",
is "popular" etymology and surely not historic. It would be rather
strange thatspecifically the "i" would have disappeared due
to neglect of the speakers, since the syllable "il" is the most
important in "al-ilah": "il" or "el" is the semitic word for God
since times immemorial.

On the Germanic useage, I meant "God, Gott".

I have no problem with other language translations of a title, such as "God", "Gott", "Elohim", etc. as they are merely titles.

We could go around all day looking at the origins of words, and simply be tilting at windmills. In the modern day vernacular, the word/name "Allah" is used for the god of Islam. It is recognized worldwide in the modern era as that, as the name has come into usage through Muhammad and Islam, not through early Christians and the word "alaha", or contractions of "al ilah" by way of writings of the Hanifs. As such, the meaning and usage of the name "Allah" is determined by the context of the Quran and Islam, and in that definition, it is a proper noun, which is incompatible with the Torah or the Christian faith.

Late note: "Allah" as the term for the Christian God has been used in Malaysian print for 450 years. It is the normal and accepted useage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

Ain't wikipedia fun? The bibles used by the Malaysian Catholics are translated as such due to errors in Catholic tradition. In the Catholic Catechism, paragraph 841 (which predates the earliest printing of these bibles) it states "The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

In these confused ramblings by the agents of the Vatican, they equatedAllah with Yahweh of the bible.Since "The Lord", which is how most Christian bibles translate the Hebrew tetragrammation, is interchangeable, according to the diocese, with "Allah", that is how those translations erringly substituted the proper name of a false god for the Almighty.

 

[Observer]

Actually, you must not have read the Wikipedia link. The new Catholic Catechism dates to the 1980's, while the Malaysian and Indonesian Bibles using the word "Allah" go back to Francis Xavier -- who died in 1552. This use of the term "Allah" has nothing to do with that new catechism, having preceded it 11x over.

Just admit it, the word "Allah" is the term for "God" used in that part of the world. Like it or not, it's just the way it is. To strip away that use from Arabic-speaking people would be like taking away "God" from the Germanic.

 

[White Shogun]

I recall that Allah was the name of a god in the Arabian peninsula before the time of Muhammad. My memory may not be accurate, but I remember the story along these lines: Muhammad declared that there was one God, and Allah was that God; all the other gods were false idols.

This is confirmed (if you can call it that) by the wikipedia entry on 'Allah.'

 

[White Shogun]

I have 5 different English translations of the Quran.  My favorite is the Shakir.

So you're saying the Shakir version translates those verses as you have them here?

 

[FootballDad]

That's all well and good, but I don't regard wikipedia to be authoritive. Wikipidia is an online collage of thought, I could edit and dispense information through wikipedia myself, whether or not it's true comes down to peer review. The dissemination regarding Allah on wikipedia is fraught with assumptions and conclusions based on assumptions. As an example, the Etymology segment is false on its face, and then entire sections, such as the "In other scripts and languages" are based on this etymological assumption.
As for the Arab Christians mentioned in the article, these are, in fact, adherents of Roman Catholicism, which has a muddled view of the situation. A missionary friend who is based in Iraq says that evangelical, protestant Christians use Jesus or "El" in their work with the Iraqis and Arab neighbors, such as the Kuwaitis.
As further proof of the folly of the wikipedia "study", it mentions a pre-Islamic pilgramage to Mecca! Prior to Islam, the Ka'aba and Mecca was nothing more than an unhewn, unmortared rock pile filled with many rock idols, Hubal being "chief god rock". The site was one of many tawaghits scattered throughout Arabia, with nothing special to recommend it. An absurdity, yet gospel according to wikipedia. I suggest that you look to a more broad-based study of a subject instead of the error-fraught wikipedia site, whether it's in regards to Allah or just about any other subject I can think of.

 

[White Shogun]

FootballDad,
I have read a great deal on Islam, and I've read the Qu'ran. I do not consider wikipedia a reliable source, hence in parentheses I said 'if you can call it that.' You don't know what I know or what I've studied. Now I do realize that you can only know this if I point it out and cite references. I haven't done that because I didn't think we were engaging in a debate.

Furthermore, the post that I wrote that seemed to light your fire actually SUPPORTED your position that Allah was not just the Arabic word for God.

It should be patently obvious that Christian missionaries in modern day Muslim countries will use some other word for God rather than Allah. They don't want there to be any confusion about which God they're representing.

The fact that some Christians refer to God as Allah is not indicative of how others view the term or where it might have originated.

To be straight: I disagree that the portions of the Qu'ran quoted by you above are not accurate translations and do not convey the intent behind the verses. I do however agree with you that the term Allah, despite it's use in some Christian communities as the word for 'God,' derived from the name of an ancient tribal deity worshiped prior to the arrival of Muhammad.


Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Observer]

A missionary friend who is based in Iraq says that evangelical, protestant Christians use Jesus or "El" in their work with the Iraqis and Arab neighbors, such as the Kuwaitis.

OK, so foreign Protestants have been in Iraq for 20 years and use the word "El". In other words, a bunch of foreigners using their own word as the natives smile at their ignorance.

Francis Xavier was in India, Malaysia, and Indonesia 20 years after Protestantism was born, and the word "Allah" has been used since that time in Christian evangelization within Arabic's sphere of influence.

Bethlehem's Christians (eastern Catholics) say "Allah", and they have been around for 2000 years.

FootballDad, why should a small foreign group (of protestants who have just come on the scene via a war-mongering U.S. government) have precedence over the useage of a term used for many generations by the vast majority -- whether Christian, Muslim or heathen?

Without convention/custom/tradition/history, the human language becomes an unintelligible sequence of grunts. The episode in Malaysia is NOT about Catholics sneaking in the word "Allah". It has been used for many generations. Whether you think that it should have been used in the beginning is a separate issue, but there is nothing novel about its continued usage at this point in history.
----------
Some background here from the Malaysia newspaper:
Malaysia Herald
"So many people have been using the word... In the language of our people, the Lunbawang and Lundayeh, ‘Allah' means God,"Â

"...We have been using it for almost 300 years. The case was only filed because of the ban from the Home Ministry...the controversy only erupted recently, after the federal government banned the Catholic church from publishing the word "Allah"Â to refer to the Christian God in the Bahasa Malaysia section of its weekly paper.
...
"We can use the word ‘Allah' in our Bible, but it cannot be sold in public bookstores," he told The Malaysian InsiderEdited by: Observer

 

[FootballDad]

Going back to some research on this matter, I can see that Old Scratch has really been working on this for a long time. The earliest Arabic bible translations found showing the inclusion of the name "Allah" date from the 8th and 9th centuries, which is a curious timeline. Thinking scholars and historians (not employed by wikipedia) trace the root word for "Allah" to the Aramaic/Syriac "alaha" and "alah"(from which alaha is derived, the final "a" being the definite article, "the"). There is no evidence of this word being used for God in any writings of the early church, or even any Talmudic studies or any other rabbinical work. So one can speculate that the name "Allah" has been used in Jewish and Christian circles for 2,000 years, but there is NO evidence to support it.
I could post all day about how these folks are misled, all the way back to the Septuagint, but I'll get back to the original post concerning the Malaysians.

Why on earth do the Malaysian "Christians", people of Indonesia, not the middle-east, need to use an ARAB name/word/whatever you want to call it, for "God" in their bible translations? Why not use the Malay (or Lundwang, Lundayeh) word for "God", "Tuhan" instead? Using this argument, the Arab Christians using "Allah" would make sense, since by this logic "allah" simply means "god". Germans can use "Gott", the French can use "Dieu", Italians "Dio". You don't see German, French, or Italian translations using "Allah", why does the Malay?
As an aside, NO authorized Quran substitutes another "word" for Allah in any translation. In French, it's "Allah", in German it's "Allah", in Italian it's "Allah".
It seems that my title for this particular post is quite fitting........

 

[Observer]

Why on earth do the Malaysian "Christians", people of Indonesia, not the middle-east, need to use an ARAB name/word/whatever you want to call it, for "God" in their bible translations?  Why not use the Malay (or Lundwang, Lundayeh) word for "God", "Tuhan" instead? 

History happens, whether or not we think it "should have" happened as it has. Many peoples today look at their own societies and ask "Why on earth have we all become Americans?"
Allah can't be substituted with Tuhan in Bible translation

 

[FootballDad]

Nice find Observer! Interesting that they would substitute a title "Tuhan" (lord) for a proper name (Yahweh) but a proper name "Allah" for a title (elohim)! All very twisted.
I guess that I've been picking on the Malaysians and Arab Christians too much here, when right in my own bible, "THE LORD" is substituted for "Yahweh" pretty much everywhere. In any Hebrew dictionary, Ba'al is translated "lord"..........