40 Times; Overrated?

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I know I overdo it w/ the 40 time talk on this forum, but I still think it is our best argument. It seems, I see at least one Scout.com black "top 10 RB recruit" every year that runs in the 4.6s. But then they have the nerve to call whites that run 4.5s with great short shuttle times too "slow" and "tight hipped" for Division 1A."

Obviously, the first thing recruiters should always look for in a RB is his on field production "can he play?" Then, athletic measurables and a player's size can help determine the upside of a player at the next level.

Here's a little tidbit that will make posters sick about the double standards. Apparently "eye dropping measurables" are hardly needed if you're black. These stats are from the Scout.com Nike Combine. Here is a black "5 star Scout recruit" "#3 RB" in the "entire nation":

Jermie Calhoun
Van HS, TX
6-0 210 lbs. 40: 4.62SS: 4.43 vertical: 28.0"

Hardly impressive measurables for the third ranked RB in the nation, but Wait it gets much worse:

A two star black RB recruit with offers from Central Michigan, Illinois, Florida International and Middle Tennessee.

Darriet Perry; Lowndes HS, GA
5-8.5193lbs4 0:4.76;SS: 4.59vertical 34.0"

Wait it still gets much worse; scanning further down the list of reducing 40 times, I spotted a black 3 star recruit. I clicked on his profile and he had offers from South Carolina, Louisville, Memphis, North Carolina, Clemson, Florida and Georgia.

Martin Ward
Mount Zion HS, GA
5-9188lbs.40 :"5.00" WTF! SS: 4.41 vertical: 27.0"

So I thought to myself "this has got to be a misprint or maybe this guy was injured when he ran a 5 flat 40 yard. I mean come on, I don't even work out and I'm about 20% body fat, but I measured a 27 inch vertical just as he does and I run a 5.3!

But not so fast, I researched further and found several two star RBs that ran in the 4.8ish range with lower tier Division 1A scholarship offers. And you see all these white RBs that post impressive H.S stats and run 4.5s and 4.6s and have no offers at all. It's quite sickening really. I guess these black players possess that mysterious "game speed" that whites never are attributed with according to these "scouts". The situation is even worse than I thought!
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[nhl411]

thats really pathetic, i've only been working out seriously for like 2 years and im significantly more athletic than a lot of D1 football skill position recruits albeit a lot smaller.Edited by: nhl411

 

[Colonel_Reb]

That Ward time must be an error. I ran a 4.95 in 10th grade way back in 1993 and I was a lineman, albeit the fastest one on the team.

 

[celticdb15]

More and more people are starting to realize just how stupid the 40 is

 

[bigman]

What should replace the 40? The 50? These measurements give players a fair hearing with recruiters. If you are small and cant run fast you will never be a D1 running back.

 

[celticdb15]

Well mentioned before on this site, the 20 yard dash could be just as effective

 

[SteveB]

I have written numerous times on this site about 40 times being overrated, but I agree that it is our best arguement for white players. The arguement against white players has always been that they are not fast enough, yet the 40 times of many of these players prove that they are just as fast as most black players that get a shot.

Over on a Texas A&M message board, someone had posted a picture of the all time 40 times at A&M for football players that is hanging in the weight room. The times were of the top 10 times all time by position. People were shocked that Jordan Peterson was ranked 3rd on the list, yet many black CBs that went on to the NFL didn't even make the top 10. Also, QB Stephen McGee ran a faster 40 time than "lightning fast" black RB Michael Goodson. You should have seen the reaction of the Aggie fans when it was shown that their black super athletes were no faster than the white skill players on the roster. Many of the fans were in denial saying that the times were inflated to make the white players look better, but when I pointed out that the times were all electronically timed and accurate, I was attacked for defending the white players. There really is a complete brainwashing of fans when it comes to white vs. black speed.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

There really is a complete brainwashing of fans when it comes to white vs. black speed.

Absolutely true, most fans automatically assume a white WR is a gutsy overachiever "possession receiver". I had a disagreement with an Eagles fan when I mentioned that Kevin Curtis is probably one of the fastest 20 WRs in the league. He goes "I'll name 5 of the top of my head faster than him, Chad Johnson, Keshawn Johnson, Santana Moss, Randy Moss, Larry Fitzgerald". I immediately shot back "just b/c they are good doesn't mean they have blazing speed. You automatically assume they are faster b/c those guys are black. Keshawn and Larry Fitz run a 4.6, Chad about a 4.5, Randy runs a 4.4, Santana has one of the fastest 10 times for any position in the last 10 years at the NFL combine at 4.32. I'm a 40 time buff and can tell you Curtis ran a 4.42 at the NFL combine and has been hand-timed at as fast as 4.21. He goes "well I guess I don't have as much time as you to look this stuff up, I'm just sayin the guys I mentioned are better than Curtis." I replied "give Curtis time and he will prove to be better than Keshawn and much less of a headcase, he's a good player.

So, you see; it automatically becomes "he's black so he's frekin fast" w/o any research! Fans are brainwashed into thinking that "all" black WRs are better b/c they are frekin fast and whites are too slow when that is not the case.

 

[Gi-15]

this is insane. I didn't play competitive football for 2 years and I still have better measurable than this Ward kid right now, and I don't work out anymore. I know a ton of guys in Quebec who have A LOT more athletic abilities than this guy. I'm coaching against some high school kids I could barely play against right now. And this 5.00 27'' 5-9 188 guy is a 3-star recruit with offer from Florida?!? crazy stuff

 

[nhl411]

looked up both of the kids and while their forty times suck there not as bad as you said riggins, they both are listen in the 4.6ish range..still quite bad considering their size though.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

looked up both of the kids and while their forty times suck there not as bad as you said riggins, they both are listen in the 4.6ish range..still quite bad considering their size though.

That is not true b/c I was listing these guys actual Scout.com combine times, not the estimated times.

The time listed on their Scout.com profile was the estimated time that they should run when Scout.com put them into their recruiting database. They estimated he would run a 4.6, but then ran a 5.00 40 yard at the Scout.com combine. If you scroll down the profile you will see their combine stats listed. Unbelievable that top colleges still wanted him after that performance! I don't know maybe he was injured?

You can also see the combine performance statistics by clicking on "combines" and picking a year and position at the Scout.com website.

 

[nhl411]

Oh wow, I never knew they had that on the site, my bad ToughJ. I just looked for it and the way they have it all the way at the bottom is so indicative of the caste system that they don't actually put up his 5.00 40 time, they leave it up there as 4.55 so he looks like he's actually an athlete. If he was white, you can guarantee they'd have the slowest possible time up there.

 

[Bronk]

When you see guys with 40 times listed at 4.0 and 4.2, forget it. Most 4.3s are BS as well.

 

[Guest]

I have written numerous times on this site about 40 times being overrated, but I agree that it is our best arguement for white players.

Personally, I don't think that's the best argument. You can teach technique through practice, and repetition, but you can't teach speed. D1 coaches would rather teach technique toburners, than toslower guys because it'll be much more effective once properly utilized.You can have the highest football IQ in the world, but if you can't catch the guy you're chasing, or elude the guy pursuing you, what good will it do?


Also, according to that scout combines link: [url]http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=9&c=15&yr =2007&sort=40[/url]


Of the 75 fastestguys, 70 of them were black.49 of the top 50 are black. And white high school players probably outnumber black players6 to 1. This realization isn't lost on D1 coaches. The4.6 Keyshawn Johnson's and 4.6 Emmit Smith's are anomalies. They're the exception to the rule. Decades of historytaught these coaches that takinga raw 4.2 - 4.3 freshmanis a better gamble than araw 4.5 - 4.6freshman.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Yeah, those scout.com numbers are really accurate.

 

[jared]

Do white HS football players get INVITED to those combines at the same rate as blacks? I'd be curious to know. Because every trend I've seen shows that whites are consistently weeded out at every level up to pro, even when they are on equal footing athletically with their black peers.
Football speed is important so you can "catch the guy you're chasing"??? How about football IQ is important so you don't end up f%&@#ing chasing someone in the first place because you read the play correctly and put yourself in the right place. I don't think 4.6 40 skill position players of the 90's were an anomaly, I think they were a vast majority. I think that a lot of the HOFers out there ran very average 40 times. It's also just one very limited metric that seems to be put on a pedestal above a lot of other telling tests like the 3-cone, short shuttle, etc. Wes Welker ran a very average 40 yard time but has some of the best short-area agility and speed of any players in the NFL.
I think decades of history show that it's better to take a savvy 4.6 40 guy over a raw athlete with a wonderlic even lower than his 40 time.
Lastly, everyone is going to have their own pre-set genetic, athletic ceiling but if a player is improving his running times through different workouts, breathing, or movement techniques, that's teaching speed to me.

 

[Don Wassall]

Excellent post.


Jason Whitlock mentioned in his article about how Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have been put in environments where they can thrive. Look at Wes Welker. Here's someone who was a star at a major college program as a receiver and kick returner yet went undrafted and was waived or in constant danger of being waived no matter how productive he was in the NFL. Then the Patriotsaggressively go after himand for the first time he has no job insecurity, in fact he knows he's going to get an extended opportunity to play, and as a result he has really blossomed and become a genuine star at wide receiver. Nurture white players like you do black ones and you'd have a whole bunch of other stars besides just at quarterback and a few tokens here and there. Unfortunately that's exactly what the Caste System doesn't allow.

 

[Don Wassall]

Also, according to that scout combines link: [url]http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=9&c=15&yr =2007&sort=40[/url]

31 times in the 4.2-4.3 range, eh?

They must have used the same timer that was at Virginia Tech the day Michael Vickran his one and onlytimed 40.Vick and a bunch of his teammates were all also timed in the 4.2-4.3 range.


If those times were accurate there should be that many fast times being run at the NFL Combine each year, in fact a lot more since the prospective playerswould have been through four years of college training and four more years of physical development. How do you account for these wonderfully fastathletes getting slower as they go through college preparing for a pro career?

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

If you check out this link:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/nflcombinescores.php

You will see that only 6 players total have run under 4.3 in the 40 yard since 1999 at the NFL combine. So Tech, you are wrong using 4.2 and 4.3 40 times as examples of what college coaches find in black players, they are extremely rare. There are loads of starting black RBs and WRs in the NFL that run 4.55 and slower in the past decade, but a white that runs that slow never gets a sniff of the NFL in most cases. I have posted a list of 40 times of lots of famous blacks that fit the slow profile.

Yes, all the top 25 players for 40 times since 1999 were black, but you have to remember that "many more" black skill players are invited to the combine than whites. And also Don Bebee ran a 4.2 flat which is tied for second all time at the combine with Deion Sanders, but is not recent enough to be listed.

Also, you will see that Eric Weddle is tied for "1st place" in the 10 yard dash since 1999 and Kevin Kasper is "first" in the short shuttle. And, their were "lots" of whites listed in the top 25 times in the 3 cone and a handful in the vertical jump as well.

So, white skill players (when they get invited to the combine) match blacks in drills other than the 40 yard and are not even far behind in that department either. This proves that there is a bias, b/c the supposed reasons whites aren't good enough is a lack of athletic ability which is disproved by combine results.

Whites measure up quite nicely! Losing "half a step" to a black player over 40 yards shouldn't be keeping whites from getting a shot if they have impressive H.S production. Football is a game of angles and it is almost unheard of to have a straight line foot race over 40 yards in game. How often do receivers have time to run a straight 40 yards on a fly pattern before the QB has to get rid of the ball?

To use RB as an example, Eddie George who is considered a great RB with over 10,000 yards only has "two runs" of 40+ yards in his entire career. This is why I think athletic measurables is our strongest argument, b/c we already know that whites match blacks in production in H.S and would also at higher levels if given a chance!Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[SteveB]

You can teach technique through practice, and repetition, but you can't teach speed. 

That is the most inaccurate cliche of them all. Yes, you can teach speed. It is called strength and conditioning training. With a good speed training program, a raw athlete can lower his 40 time by 0.2-0.3 seconds. I ran a 4.6-4.7 hand timed forty in high school and worked it down to a high 4.4 electronic timed 40, after just one year of working with the college strength and conditioning coach.

Very few fast white athletes run track in high school (in Texas at least). Most play baseball or don't participate in sports during the football offseason. On the other hand, many fast black kids do run track in the offseason. Just by the fact that these kids are training for track, they are lowering their 40 times. If you look, most of the white kids that have outstanding 40 times were also track athletes (Sam McGuffie, Brock Fitzhenry come to mind).

 

[jared]

Sorry SteveB, you weren't really getting any faster, you just had a motor that never quit.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Sorry SteveB, you weren't really getting any faster, you just had a motor that never quit.

That was good jared! I think SteveB was just experiencing a torque rise when his times went down.Edited by: Colonel_Reb

 

[SteveB]

Sorry SteveB, you weren't really getting any faster, you just had a motor that never quit.

That was good jared! I think SteveB was just experiencing a torque rise when his times went down.

No I had sneaky speed.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Sorry SteveB, you weren't really getting any faster, you just had a motor that never quit.

That was good jared! I think SteveB was just experiencing a torque rise when his times went down.

No I had sneaky speed.

Hilarious stuff SteveB!

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Yeah, but Steve B has very tight hips!