2010 Week 7

[MostDangerous]

The question is: why would the Vikings waste a 2nd round draft pick on someone they viewed as merely a third down back? Especially when he wasn't used much as a receiver in college?



Typically, teams expect second round picks to become starters, and almost always give them a chance to do that. Unless you are Brian Leonard, Jacob Hester or Toby Gerhart.



It's amazing how things work out in the NFL; while the top RB in college last season wastes away in Minnesota, unable even to secure the precious third down role that future HOFer Chester Taylor had, "troubled" LaGarrette Blount is now apparently the starting RB for the Bucs. Undrafted rookie becomes a starter. Second round pick doesn't get any playing time.



But at least it's better than the NBA.

To be fair, Blount was highly touted by NFL draft "experts" for his talent. The fact that he fell due to character concerns while Toby was drafted highly is a good thing, is it not?

Plus, this is Gerhart's rookie year. It's only been 6 games. Give it some time. If Peterson wasn't off to a great season then I think you'd have a point about Toby not getting any playing time, but the Vikings aren't going to limit Peterson's touches when he is 1) healthy 2) being productive and 3) not fumbling.

 

[snow]

Blount is big, slow and it is looking like any back can have success in that offense he came from.

No its not good. It doesn't matter how the player got there , its getting the playing time. Hillis was a 7th round pick and Hester was a 3rd, but Hester was stuck behind LT, yet when LT declined and was averaging like 3 ypc (along with Sproles) Hester never got a shot. We get it, you think Peterson is great, and you have yet to say one thing positive about Gerhart except that you think he should grind it out and wear defenses out like he is just a powerback and Peterson could break off long runs in the 2nd half, as if Gerhart isn't capable of breaking off long runs himself.

Yes Peterson is a great back, but the question is, why draft Toby if your aren't going to use him even in a Chester Taylor type role? Its a 2nd round pick, they have only won 2 games this season so its obvious they have other needs. Yes Peterson is healthy but the whole point should be to keep him healthy, he shouldn't get 30 touches a game like last week, most backs don't have long careers with those kinds of touches, guys like LT and Smith are exceptions to the rule. You even defended him saying he shouldn't be taken out for a few carries when he had 25 touches for 71 yards, why not put Gerhart in for that situation?

Yes he is top 3 in yards this season, he is also top 3 for carries. Arian Foster has close to the same amount of yards and averages 4 less carries a game. Peterson's rookie season is when he was most effective, and its also when the the carries were more evenly split up. Peterson had 1340 rushing yards with less than 240 carries. Chester Taylor had 844 on 157 carries, and went over 1,000 yards total from scrimmage. Since then Peterson's role has increased with over 300 carries each season, but his ypc went down and fumbles went up. This year he is holding on to the ball, maybe thats why Gerhart was drafted? to send a message to Peterson? Last year he had about the same number of yards he had his rookie season, on 76 extra carries. This is with Favre and a good passing attack.
Edited by: snow

 

[Truthteller]

Ever since he/she signed up, I've felt MostDangerous is probably a troll, who's just trying to play the role of "realist" -- i.e., Toby is good, but he's nothing better than a 3rd downguy....These are the same types thatwould adamantly insist thatHillis should be confined to goal-line running, a few catches a game at fullbackand blocking for the "real tailbacks"...or Danny Woodheadis real good, but his place is as a special teams mascot....or Austin Collie is a ideal 3rd receiver, but nothing more.

Likely another low-level Southern Poverty Law Center worker, with a sports fixation, who comes here to setus stupid Gentiles straight. In the past these types used to come on and get into the face of CF posters (were ultra-belligerent), but were banned quickly. But that didn't matter, as their posts were not touched (left behindfor everyone to read) and then they just changed IP's and signed up again, with a new name....EventuallyDon (and the mods) got smart and started deleting all their posts as soon as they spotted them. So these world-classa$$ clowns that spent hours posting/typing/debating would eventually see all their work erased quickly. Realizing this was fruitless, they sought a new plan.

New tactappears to bethey come here as"border line" CF supporters...but one who is smart enough to know Toby,Hester and others have their place -- right behind the "real athletes". They've nowfalling to a new low -- idolizing Chester Taylor and LaGarrett Blount (and his reported 4.86/40*)types

* http://warroom.sportingnews.com/nfl/draft/2010/players/9134.html

 

[snow]

Well I don't think we should be too paranoid because of the past and start accusing posters who are probably fine because it makes people on the fence not want to post here..... but I would like to know where he stands on Gerhart. Do you even think Gerhart should be a feature back? Its okay to disagree with posters on white players but Id rather you tell the truth instead of dance around the subject and constantly praise Peterson and try to downplay Gerhart's talent.

first he said he didn't want Gerhart to be in a Chester Taylor type role because he would d rather him be a "pure rusher" and not a jack of all trades and wind up like Brian Leonard. Now all of a sudden Gerhart is not capable of catching the ball but is a guy that can wear down defenses as a power back and isn't getting carries because he should only be closing out games.

He did throw me off when he said Taylor Martinez was ugly and probably had
impure genes because of his face and last name. When in reality, he is
French, Irish and German. The name comes from his father who was
adopted. Also said we shouldn't root for Salas. It made him sound like an extremist, but his other posts makes it sound like he is on the fence which is confusing.


Edited by: snow

 

[PhillyBirds]

Eh, I don't think so. People tend to have differing opinions on things, even if we've all made it to CF. This won't change. I can understand why the "troll tag" may be on a hair trigger at this point, but I think that most people that come here and accrue a decent amount of posts mean well.

Or maybe I'm wrong, who knows. I haven't been posting here long enough to have seen everything. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially if it at least appears that they care.

 

[Don Wassall]

Calling someone a troll whoturns out not to beis the best way to stir up bad feelings, and sometimes drive people away for good.
It's best to PM me or Jaxvid or White Lightning if someone suspects someone else is here with bad intentions, giving reasons. There's always going to be a gray area and I like to give posters the benefit of the doubt. My track record is pretty good after six-plus years of reading posts here. Ifsomeone's a troll, they always expose themselves pretty conclusively eventually.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I don't think he said anything trollish really other than that Gerhart isn't an elusive type back. I think it's because he didn't clarify his point completely. Gerhart isn't a scatback, but IS DEFINITELY ELUSIVE FOR A BIG POWERBACK.

To be fair LeGarrette Blount has been doing well in Tampa so far if I recall his performance. Blount ran a 4.72 40 I believe- basically the same time as Tebow (4.71). Actually Tebow and Blount would be similar style rushers running the ball. To sum it up, Blount JUST BARELY has enough speed to play tailback because he has the other skills necessary. Blount was cut by Tennessee in favour of higher character Stafon Johnson for the team's 3rd back role which I was happy about. Johnson is an inspirational story coming back from his near death injury.

Toby IMO is close to the talent of Peterson, he lags just SLIGHTLY behind. Toby is good enough to make some Pro Bowls in his career IMO if he gets the playing time necessary to put up the stats.

Toby is a rich man's Shonn Greene (a little faster more burst) or Marion Barber with a little more power. Toby is also like Hillis with a little less power and receiving skills, but a little more speed, burst and moves. Other comparisons for Gerhart are Corey Dillon, a larger Emmitt Smith and a rich man's Brandon Jacobs. Going way back- Maybe Jim Brown?Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I just saw that link. That 40 time of Blount's is a misprint I think, I could be wrong. I saw on Footballsfuture, some Redskins' site and NFLdraftscout Newswire- the latter is usually the most accurate- that he ran a low 4.7x- I think 4.72. I think the best way to get 40 times is to google "2010 NFL combine" and see what comes back.

Edited to add: Man I got two different results:
Footballsfuture said 4.62 for Blount
NFLdraftscout gave it as a range and I'd guess their report is correct:
40 Time Range: 4.70-4.83
He has a poor shuttle time of 4.49, but good 10 yard burst of 1.52 which is actually better than half of the top 10 backs. He has a nice 3 cone of 6.85 which is better than all the top 10 backs other than Jahvid Best.
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[whiteathlete33]

Tough, he ran a 4.7 at the Combine. Here is one source, CBS sports.

Blount's talent is still undeniable. His success as a part-time
contributor in 2008 was not surprising, as he was very highly recruited
out of high school and junior college. He was a second-team all-state
pick in Florida as a high school senior and the top-rated JC back out of
East Mississippi after rushing for 2,292 yards and 18 touchdowns in his
two seasons there. A powerful back with quick feet to elude and just
enough straight-line speed (4.70 40 at Combine, 4.59 at pro day) to gain
yardage in chunks, Blount has legitimate NFL talent. Whether an NFL
team is willing to take the public relations hit for drafting (or
signing as a free agent) a player with his obvious character concerns,
however, is an entirely different matter.


So he has enough speed at 4.7 to play running back, but faster guys like Rob Konrad, Heath Evans, and Jacob Hester weren't allowed to be featured backs. Also, those numbers sound correct. Pro Day times are usually a tenth of a second faster than Combine times.


Edited by: whiteathlete33

 

[Truthteller]

He did throw me off when he said Taylor Martinez was ugly and probably had impure genes because of his face and last name. When in reality, he is French, Irish and German. The name comes from his father who was adopted. Also said we shouldn't root for Salas. It made him sound like an extremist, but his other posts makes it sound like he is on the fence which is confusing.

Folks, I've never called for this poster to banned, or anything like that. But the quote above tells it all. In one instance he'll come off as a Archie Bunker type, whofeels a player needs to look like a Brock Huard(aryan type) for him to accept them/root forthem. And in the next thread, he'llremind us Gerhart and others simply aren't good enough to compare to marginal talents like Taylor and Blount. Just very inconsistent.

Does it really matter what Blount really ran? Perhaps, butmainstream media sites have him anywhere between a 4.70 and a 4.86.As WA33 pointed out, these sort of numbers would almost certainly doom a white running back from the start. WA33, named some more well known white tailbacks that have been "stacked" at fullback for their entire careersbecause their 4.6 flat or even sub 4.5 wasn't good enough. My guess is even at mid-major FBS schools and lowly FCS schools white runners that don't run a 4.6 or better are moved to LB/TE or used as a blocking fullback (Jameson Koonz), while the Arian Foster's, Blount's and Kahlil Bell's that run well over 4.6 or 4.7are bumped up at every level. So there are likely dozens of white runners each year with similar talent and equal computer/workout numbers to Blount, who never even get a NFL try-out.

Look at Hester's deal: LT is gone and Sproles never runs the ball anymore.Yet a guy that led a team to a FBS National Title andwas selected in round 3 (Chargers traded up to pick him)is now relagated to backup fullback, while Mike Tolbert, who was a blocking FB at FCS Coastal Carolina (and ran a slower 40 time), is getting significant carries. As the years go on, Hester seems to have almostgiven up -- looks like he isn't running as hard as he did as a rookie. Perhaps he's figured out how the "system" works and knows he's on a very short leash (could be cut/demotedafter 1 running fumble) and is content to pick up as many paychecks as he can as a jack-of-all-trades?Edited by: Truthteller

 

[Toby Hillis]

Hester seems to have almostgiven up -- looks like he isn't running as hard as he did as a rookie. Perhaps he's figured out how the "system" works and knows he's on a very short leash (could be cut/demotedafter 1 running fumble) and is content to pick up as many paychecks as he can as a jack-of-all-trades?

Truthteller,

Its so ironic you said that about Hester. I was talking to a friend of mine while watching parts of the San Diego/New England game. I swear, I said the same thing and Ive noticed it for weeks.He just has this defeated look all of the time; blank semi-sad stare, shoulders down, walks slowly off field, etc. Its like he barely tries anymore. And I know its not just in my head because I never saw Leonard,Woodhead or Hillis with that look. Hes probably beyond mad that finally a few white RBs are getting thrown a bone, yet hes still a crash test dummy. Too sad.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Hester seems to have almostgiven up -- looks like he isn't running as hard as he did as a rookie. Perhaps he's figured out how the "system" works and knows he's on a very short leash (could be cut/demotedafter 1 running fumble) and is content to pick up as many paychecks as he can as a jack-of-all-trades?

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<div>Truthteller,</div>
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<div>Its so ironic you said that about Hester. I was talking to a friend of mine while watching parts of the San Diego/New England game. I swear, I said the same thing and Ive noticed it for weeks.He just has this defeated look all of the time; blank semi-sad stare, shoulders down, walks slowly off field, etc. Its like he barely tries anymore. And I know its not just in my head because I never saw Leonard,Woodhead or Hillis with that look. Hes probably beyond mad that finally a few white RBs are getting thrown a bone, yet hes still a crash test dummy. Too sad.</div>

I've noticed that too, Toby. Jacob' situation is a sad one, but he brought some of it on himself by bulking up to be a battering ram and saying he was willing to do anything to help the team. I hope things change for him, but I don't know if it will.

 

[Deadlift]

I'm so glad that San Diego and Cincinnati are struggling mightily, and, coming into this season, I figured they would struggle.

Beyond being fragile, I knew Ryan Mathews was nothing special... and he's "so big" (and powerful) -- really?... he looks pretty damn small on the field to me! Think about it, the Wyoming defense stuffed him a bunch of times in their Bowl Game, but the media still "sold" Mathews as some kind of "Superman"... and San Diego took the bait.

 

[snow]

Yes, no talk of Matthews inability to stay healthy in the WAC when he was drafted in the first round or him struggling a few times against so called "weak competition". Meanwhile, Luke Lippincott who had a knee injury after his season where he had 1400 rushing yards and 18 total touchdowns, took a year off and fully recovered from it and rushed for 1,000+ yards splitting carries, averaged 7.7 ypc 11 tds in the same conference, doesn't even get a tryout.

Matthews was injured and missed games every single season he played. I bet Vai Taua, the guy that Lippincott split carries with, will also get drafted and given a chance. Matthews is talented but should have never gone in the first and should have never been considered a feature back/replacement for LT. It is sad they won't give Hester carries. I think you guys are right, I mentioned this before after he just kind of let the dropped pass sit there for a second, it looks like he doesn't care anymore.

 

[MostDangerous]

Ever since he/she signed up, I've felt MostDangerous is probably a troll, who's just trying to play the role of "realist" -- i.e., Toby is good, but he's nothing better than a 3rd downguy

I'm sorry, but you are a moron. Where did I say Toby would be
"nothing better than a 3rd down guy"? Nowhere. I said the EXACT OPPOSITE
you ignoramus.



Sure, I'm a troll because I have reading comprehension which you
obviously lack? If anything, you are the troll seeing as you've been here for over a year yet hardly post.

.....These are the same types thatwould adamantly insist thatHillis should be confined to goal-line running, a few catches a game at fullbackand blocking for the "real tailbacks"...or Danny Woodheadis real good, but his place is as a special teams mascot....or Austin Collie is a ideal 3rd receiver, but nothing more.

What the hell? How many posts of mine have you read? Maybe you should go search for them, because obviously you think making an assumption because I don't believe Toby is GOD that I hate all white players. It's ignorant morons like you that keep CF from being the beacon of light that it SHOULD be.

<div>Likely another low-level Southern Poverty Law Center worker, with a sports fixation, who comes here to setus stupid Gentiles straight.

Well, you are a stupid Gentile, that's for sure.

In the past these types used to come on and get into the face of CF posters (were ultra-belligerent), but were banned quickly. But that didn't matter, as their posts were not touched (left behindfor everyone to read) and then they just changed IP's and signed up again, with a new name....EventuallyDon (and the mods) got smart and started deleting all their posts as soon as they spotted them. So these world-classa$$ clowns that spent hours posting/typing/debating would eventually see all their work erased quickly. Realizing this was fruitless, they sought a new plan.

Oh, it's a "new plan" that the trolls are working on, is it? I bet you know ALL ABOUT THAT, don't you, "Truthteller". I'm beginning to think you're trying the ol' "if I say this they'll never think I'm actually behind it" routine.
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<div>New tactappears to bethey come here as"border line" CF supporters...but one who is smart enough to know Toby,Hester and others have their place -- right behind the "real athletes". They've nowfalling to a new low -- idolizing Chester Taylor and LaGarrett Blount (and his reported 4.86/40*)types

I'm sorry that I recognize what OTHER PEOPLE think of Blount, where I said they thought of him highly. Go back to the cave you crawled out of you worthless troll.
</div>

 

[MostDangerous]

He did throw me off when he said Taylor Martinez was ugly and probably had impure genes because of his face and last name. When in reality, he is French, Irish and German. The name comes from his father who was adopted. Also said we shouldn't root for Salas. It made him sound like an extremist, but his other posts makes it sound like he is on the fence which is confusing.

Yes, I did say he was a bit ugly, but honestly that's a personal opinion. I stand by it. I didn't know he was white, I made the mistake of assuming he was mixed and that's why he looked that way. I never doubted his ability, though.
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</div>
<div>Folks, I've never called for this poster to banned, or anything like that. But the quote above tells it all. In one instance he'll come off as a Archie Bunker type, whofeels a player needs to look like a Brock Huard(aryan type) for him to accept them/root forthem. And in the next thread, he'llremind us Gerhart and others simply aren't good enough to compare to marginal talents like Taylor and Blount. Just very inconsistent.

Yeah, I never said anything of the sort. You are twisting my words to try to to get me banned because I don't agree in lockstep with everything posted everywhere. Sorry, some of us have opinions of players that aren't white. I think Gerhart is better than both Taylor and Blount. I'd rather Toby not have to sit behind Peterson, but I don't think playing him on 3rd downs is what best suites Toby's abilities. You can argue all you want but he has never been a guy to catch a ton of passes out of the backfield. It's simple facts like this that make me scratch my head when you take that to mean that I somehow think Taylor and Blount are all of the sudden better than Toby!
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<div>Does it really matter what Blount really ran? Perhaps, butmainstream media sites have him anywhere between a 4.70 and a 4.86.As WA33 pointed out, these sort of numbers would almost certainly doom a white running back from the start. WA33, named some more well known white tailbacks that have been "stacked" at fullback for their entire careersbecause their 4.6 flat or even sub 4.5 wasn't good enough. My guess is even at mid-major FBS schools and lowly FCS schools white runners that don't run a 4.6 or better are moved to LB/TE or used as a blocking fullback (Jameson Koonz), while the Arian Foster's, Blount's and Kahlil Bell's that run well over 4.6 or 4.7are bumped up at every level. So there are likely dozens of white runners each year with similar talent and equal computer/workout numbers to Blount, who never even get a NFL try-out.

Sorry, but I never cared for 40 times. True football speed is something different all together. I would say that regardless of the race of the player. I don't think Blount is fast or any good, to be honest, so I'm not defending him. It's sad that on here I have to defend myself on something I DIDN'T SAY.
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<div>Look at Hester's deal: LT is gone and Sproles never runs the ball anymore.Yet a guy that led a team to a FBS National Title andwas selected in round 3 (Chargers traded up to pick him)is now relagated to backup fullback, while Mike Tolbert, who was a blocking FB at FCS Coastal Carolina (and ran a slower 40 time), is getting significant carries. As the years go on, Hester seems to have almostgiven up -- looks like he isn't running as hard as he did as a rookie. Perhaps he's figured out how the "system" works and knows he's on a very short leash (could be cut/demotedafter 1 running fumble) and is content to pick up as many paychecks as he can as a jack-of-all-trades?</div>

Hester got screwed, and it boggles my mind why the 'Bolts picked him as high as they did. Jacob should get out of San Diego ASAP before that team implodes.

 

[MostDangerous]

Tough, he ran a 4.7 at the Combine. Here is one source, CBS sports.

Blount's talent is still undeniable. His success as a part-time
contributor in 2008 was not surprising, as he was very highly recruited
out of high school and junior college. He was a second-team all-state
pick in Florida as a high school senior and the top-rated JC back out of
East Mississippi after rushing for 2,292 yards and 18 touchdowns in his
two seasons there. A powerful back with quick feet to elude and just
enough straight-line speed (4.70 40 at Combine, 4.59 at pro day) to gain
yardage in chunks, Blount has legitimate NFL talent. Whether an NFL
team is willing to take the public relations hit for drafting (or
signing as a free agent) a player with his obvious character concerns,
however, is an entirely different matter.


So he has enough speed at 4.7 to play running back, but faster guys like Rob Konrad, Heath Evans, and Jacob Hester weren't allowed to be featured backs. Also, those numbers sound correct. Pro Day times are usually a tenth of a second faster than Combine times.

Thank you for proving my point that OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT HIGHLY OF BLOUNT. How hard is this for you to understand, "Truthteller"? Stop putting words into my mouth.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I'm not trying to play both sides here b/c I'm Canadian lol. I don't think it's good to call someone a troll unless it's clear they are against white athletes and don't believe in the CS. Basically they'd have to show they were here for bad purposes- and MD has made some good points about the CS.

But as far as the "impure genes" comment about Taylor Martinez being a "mongrel" and not worth rooting for much, it bothered me. As far as Mexicans, most are a mix of Spanish and indigenous Indian admixture and I can root for them. They are definitely victims of the CS too. My wife happens to be part Cherokee actually and I definitely have a high opinion of SOME of the indigenous tribes of the Americas. White and Amero-Indians seem to have more in common than whites and blacks and it seems to work out better genetically when having children. I'm not trying to push white-Amero Indian marriage, just that personally it doesn't bother me and people should go where love leads them.

As far as black and white intermarriage- I don't think it's a good idea because of a culture gap. However, I CAN cheer for athletes who have a small amount of black bloodlines if they are not beneficiaries of the caste system when fans and media see them mostly as white.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[snow]

You act like Toby should wait to play on another team. He has signed a contract, he will stay in Minnesota for a good deal of time, I think 4 years, no team is going to knock down the door for a white runningback with 15 NFL carries. The same way nobody is going to knock down the door for Hester. Hillis got lucky because of 6 backs getting injured and he got to showcase his talent, and Woodhead had some impressive preseason film, and the Patriots are probably the only team smart enough to give a guy like him a chance. This isn't like with wide receivers that can last until their 30's. Runningbacks peak early. The average career for a back is around 3 years, and Toby probably won't get out of there until 4, so why not hope for him to get on the field any way possible.

Why exactly wouldn't Gerhart make a good 3rd down back? Wouldn't that be better than not seeing the field at all? Once you said you didn't want him to wind up like Leonard which was your reasoning, but then you said he had no experience catching the ball. He proved he can catch the ball, they threw to him in preseason, and he did fine at the combine drills, and he was an outfielder. The hand eye coordination is there. Pretty much every time they threw him the ball at Stanford, it was at least a 1st down. How does it not suite his "abilities"? Do you think hes lacking something? Pretty much every white guy that has played knows how to catch a football. Guys like Shockey are considered to have bad hands because they drop 3 or 4 passes a year. Correct me if I am wrong, from the way you have talked about Gerhart, you have said he is a "grind it out" kind of guy, and Peterson could break off the long runs. You are implying that Gerhart can't break off long runs and is just a powerback, are you not? And what is the deal with insisting that he should only get carries to close out games? How is that worthy of a 2nd round pick? Your whole basis is that he didn't catch a lot of passes in college...so what? Neither did Chester Taylor, what does it matter? He can catch, right? There hasn't been any proof to prove otherwise. He is athletic, is he not? His film and combine prove that. Then why shouldn't he see time as a 3rd down back until there is an opportunity to run the ball more? Unless you have some other explanation that your not elaborating on.

MostDangerous</span>
"because obviously you think making an assumption because I don't believe
Toby is GOD that I hate all white players. It's ignorant morons like
you that keep CF from being the beacon of light that it SHOULD be."

So is that the truth? is that what is behind all of this. You don't think Toby is great? because pretty much everybody else does, even a few guys that aren't on our side. The film shows it and his measurables prove it as well. Why didn't you just come out and say this in the first place instead of dancing around the subject. Nice job of calling someone an ignorant moron though, along with other insults Thanks for shedding light on that, this whole time I was angry at a whole bunch of other people, when it has really been truthteller keeping us back this entire time. Not saying people shouldn't have different opinions, but I would love to hear your analysis of why you think Toby isn't that great.

and why would you not care if the entire offensive line was black? You seem to think that the lines would be no different than if they were majority white. Newsflash, there aren't enough black people with that type of build to fill every position on the line. Big blacks tend to have more body fat, have less strength, lacking fundamentals, have more penalties and are lacking stamina. Just look at guys like Jake Long and Joe Thomas compared to the many first round sumos. It just doesn't make sense to care enough about someone being ugly and having a hispanic surname to not root for them, but don't care if every offensive lineman was black. How am I supposed to know if you doubted Martinez's ability or not? You just said "with a name like that you have to wonder if he isn't white" and that "his ugly face was indicate impure genes." I am sorry wavy hair, light eyes and ears that stick out are soo ugly to you. I didn't know we were judging whites by whether they were pretty or not. You were acting like the guy looks like Blake Griffin or something.

MostDangerous</span>
"Well, you are a stupid Gentile, that's for sure.
Oh, it's a "new plan" that the trolls are working on, is it? I bet you
know ALL ABOUT THAT, don't you, 'Truthteller'. I'm beginning to think
you're trying the ol' 'if I say this they'll never think I'm actually
behind it' routine."

and he isn't trying to get you banned, nobody has the authority to do that except Don and the moderators. It just seems you are either trying to convince us that talented guys like Salas or speed freaks like Martinez aren't white or guys like Gerhart just don't have the ability to do certain things, like be a 3rd down back, or break off long runs. Yes his accusations were out there but don't try to turn things around and try to make people turn against him. This isn't divide and conquer, which is what it appears you are doing with certain white players as well. There have been a lot of trolls on here, so of course there is suspicion from time to time, Don said if there is then you should contact someone on the site like himself or a moderator instead of posting it on the forum, so there is no reason to sit there and disobey what Don just posted after the initial accusations. Be the better person.

Edited by: snow

 

[MostDangerous]

Why exactly wouldn't Gerhart make a good 3rd down back? Wouldn't that be better than not seeing the field at all? Once you said you didn't want him to wind up like Leonard which was your reasoning, but then you said he had no experience catching the ball. He proved he can catch the ball, they threw to him in preseason, and he did fine at the combine drills, and he was an outfielder. The hand eye coordination is there. Pretty much every time they threw him the ball at Stanford, it was at least a 1st down. How does it not suite his "abilities"? Do you think hes lacking something? Pretty much every white guy that has played knows how to catch a football. Guys like Shockey are considered to have bad hands because they drop 3 or 4 passes a year. Correct me if I am wrong, from the way you have talked about Gerhart, you have said he is a "grind it out" kind of guy, and Peterson could break off the long runs. You are implying that Gerhart can't break off long runs and is just a powerback, are you not? And what is the deal with insisting that he should only get carries to close out games? How is that worthy of a 2nd round pick? Your whole basis is that he didn't catch a lot of passes in college...so what? Neither did Chester Taylor, what does it matter? He can catch, right? There hasn't been any proof to prove otherwise. He is athletic, is he not? His film and combine prove that. Then why shouldn't he see time as a 3rd down back until there is an opportunity to run the ball more? Unless you have some other explanation that your not elaborating on.

All I think is that he's not ideally suited to be a 3rd down back. He's a powerback, much more like Brandon Jacobs than Reggie Bush. It's not that hard to understand. Powebacks aren't (usually) known as receivers. You are way too defensive of him. I never said he wasn't a good player or that he didn't have skills. He went in the 2nd round as a white RB, he had perhaps the best season I've ever seen of a runningback in college (and believe me, I was watching when he thrashed USC). I don't believe in giving someone praise for something they haven't done yet, which is why I have yet to anoint him as a great receiving threat yet. Once he gets a chance then I will become a believer (which hopefully is sooner rather than later).

"because obviously you think making an assumption because I don't believe
Toby is GOD that I hate all white players. It's ignorant morons like
you that keep CF from being the beacon of light that it SHOULD be."

So is that the truth? is that what is behind all of this. You don't think Toby is great? because pretty much everybody else does, even a few guys that aren't on our side. The film shows it and his measurables prove it as well. Nice job of calling someone an ignorant moron though. Thanks for shedding light on that, this whole time I was angry at a whole bunch of other people, when it has really been truthteller keeping us back this entire time. Not saying people shouldn't have different opinions, but I would love to hear your analysis of why you think Toby isn't that great.

Yeah, I was using hyperbole. And yet there it is again, someone accusing me of not thinking Toby is great. As if thinking of him as "very good" would be a slap in the face of a rookie? Please. He's a great player. Get over the fact that other people have different opinions on ONE aspect of his play. Nowhere have I ever doubted him as a rusher, and I was impressed with his blocking in pass protection against the Packers. I saw him catch passes at Stanford, but yet, the facts are he caught very few. Those are facts, you can't dispute them.

and why would you not care if the entire offensive line was black? You seem to think that the lines would be no different than if they were majority white. Newsflash, there aren't enough black people with that type of build to fill every position on the line. Big blacks tend to have more body fat, have less strength, lacking fundamentals, have more penalties and are lacking stamina. Just look at guys like Jake Long and Joe Thomas compared to the many first round sumos.

Why don't I care? Because skill players are the ones the media cares about. Nobody gives a crap about offensive lineman. There may be a caste for offensive line, but I have never heard of someone saying that a white player wasn't good enough to play OLINE. That's why I don't care.

It just doesn't make sense to care enough about someone being ugly and having a hispanic surname to not root for them, but don't care if every offensive lineman was black. How am I supposed to know if you doubted Martinez's ability or not? You just said "with a name like that you have to wonder if he isn't white" and that "his ugly face was indicate impure genes." I am sorry wavy hair, light eyes and ears that stick out are soo ugly to you. I didn't know we were judging whites by whether they were pretty or not. You were acting like the guy looks like Blake Griffin or something.

It was a personal opinion of him. It's kinda funny, I've read all these things on here of all places about coaches being called like McEminem and the like, and I know I've seen some places where you refer to coaches about their weights. Oh, but I say something about a player being ugly, and now all of the sudden I'm a troll? How is my one instance of a personal opinion of a player different than your (and others) personal opinion on someone's appearance either?

"Oh, it's a "new plan" that the trolls are working on, is it? I bet you
know ALL ABOUT THAT, don't you, "Truthteller". I'm beginning to think
you're trying the ol' "if I say this they'll never think I'm actually
behind it" routine."

and he isn't trying to get you banned, nobody has the authority to do that except Don and the moderators. It just seems you are either trying to convince us that talented guys like Salas or speed freaks like Martinez aren't white or guys like Gerhart just don't have the ability to do certain things, like be a 3rd down back, or break off long runs. Yes his accusations were out there but don't try to turn things around and try to make people turn against him. This isn't divide and conquer, which is what it appears you are doing with certain white players as well. There have been a lot of trolls on here, so of course there is suspicion from time to time, Don said if there is then you should contact someone on the site like himself or a moderator instead of posting it on the forum, so there is no reason to sit there and disobey what Don just posted after the initial accusations. Be the better person.

Why should I "be the better person"? When someone calls me out, I face it like a man. All I want to do is talk about football and enjoy the success of white players, but when someone tries to get me banned I take issue with that, especially when I've done nothing to deserve a ban.

 

[MostDangerous]

But as far as the "impure genes" comment about Taylor Martinez being a "mongrel" and not worth rooting for much, it bothered me. As far as Mexicans, most are a mix of Spanish and indigenous Indian admixture and I can root for them. They are definitely victims of the CS too. My wife happens to be part Cherokee actually and I definitely have a high opinion of SOME of the indigenous tribes of the Americas. White and Amero-Indians seem to have more in common than whites and blacks and it seems to work out better genetically when having children. I'm not trying to push white-Amero Indian marriage, just that personally it doesn't bother me and people should go where love leads them.

As far as black and white intermarriage- I don't think it's a good idea because of a culture gap. However, I CAN cheer for athletes who have a small amount of black bloodlines if they are not beneficiaries of the caste system when fans and media see them mostly as white.

Interesting. This guy basically says he's okay with interracial marriage between white and native americans but I don't hear anyone considering him a troll. Yet I speculate that someone might have impure genes and get called a troll. I have nothing against you, ToughJRiggins, and you seem like you know what you are talking about football wise, but I don't see anyone calling you a troll. Is it because I'm new here or something?

 

[snow]

I have to run for tonight but I have time adress one thing you said right now

"Why don't I care? Because skill players are the ones the media cares
about. Nobody gives a crap about offensive lineman. There may be a caste
for offensive line, but I have never heard of someone saying that a
white player wasn't good enough to play OLINE. That's why I don't care."

Plenty of people care about offensive lineman, and if you don't think people have doubted the ability of whites to play offensive line then go look at every draft guru rag or site ranking the top tackles. Rarely are there any white guys. Most of the good white guys get moved to guard, and if they are good left tackles they get move to right, they are said to not possess some magical quality, or said to have too short of arms, not athletic enough etc. There are a few exceptions to the rule, like Jake Long and Joe Thomas. People criticized the hell out of the Sam Baker pick. Slowly but surely, offensive line will become the same way defensive line is now. At one point no one ever doubted the ability of whites to play dline, now there are only a few. But we shouldn't care right? because its not like this is a site to root for white players or anything.

 

[Don Wassall]

All right, there's been enough point-counterpoint, I'm going to lock this thread. I don't see any trolls at work, it's just one of those threads where a disagreement got a little heated. At some point, increasingly long answers citing quotes and rebuttals to quotes becomes tedious to all butthe few having the debate so we'llend ithere and move on.