WEC

[White Shogun]

The WEC is on the Versus network tonight, live.

There was a very controversial match for the WEC Middleweight title, between champion Paulo Filho and contender Chael Sonnen. Some consider Filho the #1 ranked middleweight in the world.

In the first round, Sonnen, a fighter with a background as a wrestler and one-time Olympic alternate, knocked out Filho with a body slam. Sonnen told the referee that Filho was out, but the ref did not stop the fight. Sonnen made the mistake of not continuing to beat on Filho til the referee stopped the fight. Filho recovered and made it out of the round.

Sonnen dominated the first round in the stand up, take downs, and ground control.

In the second round Filho secured an arm bar with 13 seconds left in the round. Sonnen's face contorted in pain but he did not tap. There is no question he did not tap. The referee moved in and stopped the fight, while Sonnen was yelling "NOOO!" The official decision was Verbal Submission.

It was very obvious that Sonnen did not tap and was not verbally submitting. He did not appear to have suffered any permanent damage to the arm before it was releaseed. He told Frank Mir in the post fight interview that he did not tap, and he was saying 'no' to the referee that he should not stop the fight.

I've watched a lot of MMA but that was one of the most egregious stoppages I have ever seen.

Chael Sonnen

 

[Guest]

I would like to see UFC move all their 185, 170, and 155 matches to WEC and leave the real fighters in UFC.

This would be similar to the way K-1 and PRIDE handled most of their shows, and would be a lot more true to an Ultimate Fighting Championship, in which small men have no place.

 

[Trooper Thorn]

That stoppage wasn't even in the top 50 worst stoppages in mma history.

Sonnen fought with the most idiotic gameplan imaginable. He was owning Filho on the feet in the first round but shot in for a takedown and almost got choked and then armbarred. In the second round he shot in again, put himself in a bad position and got armbarred only Filho had it in deep and fully extended that time.

A ref stopping a fight when a submission is in deep without the fighter tapping has happened several times before and works like a TKO in boxing. Sonnen's arm was bent past 90 degrees and he was screaming in pain with his eyes closed. Perfectly acceptable stoppage.
The ref could have let it go on but Chael would have one less arm.

And Sonnen deserved to lose for having such a moronic gameplan "I'm absolutley beating the crap out of a jui jitsu black belt on the feet who almost armbarred me earlier....I know I'll go for a takedown and give him another chance!"

 

[Guest]

Yeah, going for the takedown when you are winning on the feet is probably one of the dumbest things that fighters do now. It is a regular feature of modern MMA, and is due to the standardized generic MMA training that most guys get.

Another stupid habit of most fighters with generic, modern MMA training, is to knock the other guy to the ground with strikes and then jump directly into his guard, when instead they should just walk backwards and force the ref to make the other guy stand up.

Chael is not the smartest fighter though. He has the same plan for plan for every opponent, and has been locked by several jiujitsu experts now. He never learns, and still attacks the same way every time.

 

[White Shogun]

Did you guys watch the fight, or are you just trolling message boards and repeating what you read somewhere else?

Bent 90 degrees?

Stupid game plan or not, it was a bad stoppage.

 

[Trooper Thorn]

Why not try coming up with half intelligent replies to back up your arguments instead of calling people who don't fully agree with everything you say trolls.

The elbow was bent 90s degrees and Filho's legs were fully extended. In that position it only takes five seconds for that thing to break.

Sorry it doesn't fit in with you "Crooked ref out to screw white fighters" delusions but if the stoppage didn't come when it did Chael would have been sitting out for a long time.

Nevada - I fully agree with you. Most of Sonnen's career losses have come by submission after he put himself in stupid positions. Look at his fight with Babalu.

 

[White Shogun]

Quite ironic that you tell me to come up with intelligent arguments and yet you bring up the 'crooked ref to screw white fighters argument' out of nowhere? Do you know what a 'straw man' is? Did I say the ref was crooked? Did I say the fight was fixed? Are you unaware that bad stoppages, both too late and too soon, occur regularly in both mixed martial arts and boxing, and that it has nothing to do with the ref being a crook? If anyone has any delusions around here, it's you - who seem to think that referees cannot be biased nor ever make a mistake in judgment.

Are you unable to separate issues into their component parts? Does a bad game plan gone awry mean that the ref could not possibly ever make a bad decision?

Go back and read all the message boards where you first read what you cut and pasted onto this thread, and you'll see that there are plenty of other people who agree it was a bad stoppage.
Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Guest]

You can watch the match again here.

 

[Trooper Thorn]

Quite ironic that you tell me to come up with intelligent arguments and yet you bring up the 'crooked ref to screw white fighters argument' out of nowhere?

Ah yes - accusing someone who holds a different opinion of having not watched the fight or copy and pasting their opinions from elsewhere = intelligent argument.

Gotcha.

 

[White Shogun]

Quite ironic that you tell me to come up with intelligent arguments and yet you bring up the 'crooked ref to screw white fighters argument' out of nowhere?

Ah yes - accusing someone who holds a different opinion of having not watched the fight or copy and pasting their opinions from elsewhere = intelligent argument.

Gotcha.

*sigh*

I did not say say that my rebuttal was an 'intelligent argument.' I merely pointed out the irony of one asking for an intelligent argument when they do not provide one themselves. Your 'crooked ref' argument against me is a straw man. You are overstating my position, and that of many others on the board, and then refuting the position you have created. You brought your 'crooked ref' straw man argument with you from the Mayweather thread and attempted to set it up over here in a thread discussing the timing of a referee stoppage. There are only three of us in this thread so far, and I did not say the referee in the Sonnen fight was crooked or that the fight was fixed, so why are you bringing it up in rebuttal to my post?

Your response to this thread was inherently predictable in my opinion, and such that I felt you'd make such a post without even having watched the fight. Perhaps you did watch the fight, and your opinion of the stoppage is right on. Okay, fine. I apologize for insinuating that you did not form your own opinion. Perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue as well as the rest of the issues on this board.

 

[Poacher]

You can watch the match again here.

Thanks for the link.

Stoppage was premature.

 

[Sean]

The stoppage was premature. Sure, Sonnen's face contorted, and understandably so, but the ref needs to allow a fighter to continue until he taps or clearly needs protected.

Remember when Hughes locked one on Gracie? That looked far worse than this armbar, Gracie did not tap, and the fight was allowed to continue.

 

[White Shogun]

I stand corrected. Looks like Sonnen verbally tapped by saying, 'TAP!' It's pretty clear in this video:

Sonnen said 'TAP!'

You can hear the referee tell Sonnen after he separates them, 'You said 'tap.' Sonnen says, 'I f**ked up.'

No wonder Sonnen hasn't complained more vehemently that he didn't tap.

Before anyone jumps back into this thread to congratulate themselves at my expense, let me say I have no problem pointing out that Sonnen verbally submitted. Obviously, there is a difference between verbal submission and stopping the fight because it 'looks bad.'

 

[Sean]

I stand corrected. Looks like Sonnen verbally tapped by saying, 'TAP!' It's pretty clear in this video:

Sonnen said 'TAP!'

You can hear the referee tell Sonnen after he separates them, 'You said 'tap.' Sonnen says, 'I f**ked up.'

No wonder Sonnen hasn't complained more vehemently that he didn't tap.

Before anyone jumps back into this thread to congratulate themselves at my expense, let me say I have no problem pointing out that Sonnen verbally submitted. Obviously, there is a difference between verbal submission and stopping the fight because it 'looks bad.'

I missed that too White Shogun. It appears that Sonnen's adrenaline must have gotten the better of him because it's very clear that as soon as the ref stepped in that Sonnen wanted to continue.Edited by: Sean

 

[White_Savage]

I would like to see UFC move all their 185, 170, and 155 matches to WEC and leave the real fighters in UFC.

This would be similar to the way K-1 and PRIDE handled most of their shows, and would be a lot more true to an Ultimate Fighting Championship, in which small men have no place.

Dude, what is your problem with the smaller weight classes? Not "real fighters?" Hah! Roll with a Sherk or a Hughes and then tell me they're not a "real fighters". I understand why having such a plethora of them in boxing is lame, but whats with the bad attitude towards any fighter under 200lbs? I mean, the average human male in good shape weighs in the vicinity of 180. A trim 230lber is the unusual one. The best divisions in the UFC right now are the LWs, WWs, and MWs, because of the talent pool. Not to mention the fact that guys like Hughes or GSP could handle 90% of the normal population in a fight, even if they were giving up a few pounds.

 

[Poacher]

Well, he said "tap." Game over.

 

[Trooper Thorn]

Okay, fine. I apologize for insinuating that you did not form your own opinion. Perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue as well as the rest of the issues on this board.

Ok. I apologize as well. No hard feelings.

 

[White Shogun]

Okay, fine. I apologize for insinuating that you did not form your own opinion. Perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue as well as the rest of the issues on this board.

Ok. I apologize as well. No hard feelings.

Thanks, Thorn. I appreciate it.

 

[Maple Leaf]

It seems clear after carefull video inspection that it was unlikely Sonnen was going to escape the armbar anyway, therefore, premature or not, Sonnen was going to lose by submission. Had the ref not stopped the fight that second he surely would have seconds later. Certainly a few thousands dollars more in purse would not have been worth a broken reversed joint.

The referees have to protect the fighters from serious and permanent injury even if it means sometimes going against the fighter's will.

I did not observe any racial plot in the fight either as one fighter was white with a Finnish name and the other was white with a Portuguese name.

My arbitrary opinions...