POWs get rights to OUR courts

Colonel_Reb

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<H1>No matter whether you support the current hostilities or not, this isn't a blow to the Bush administration, its a blow to the people of the United States. </H1>


[url]http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g_blEpau4RnlQb90bawjBZS5 7f0w[/url]
<H1>WASHINGTON (AFP) â€â€￾ The US Supreme Court Thursday ruled detainees held in the US military base at Guantanamo Bay have the right to appeal to federal courts in a fresh blow to the Bush administration.</H1>


The court ruled that prisoners in the US jail in southern Cuba "have the constitutional privilege of habeas corpus," in the third ruling on Guantanamo against the current administration of President George W. Bush.


By a vote of five to four, the court found that even if the base was officially on Cuban territory, it was in fact operating as if it were on American soil and therefore the prisoners have the right under the constitution to challenge their detentions.


White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said the administration was "reviewing the opinion" but declined immediate comment.


Thursday's ruling should now force the detainees and their legal teams to demand that the government unveil the body of evidence against them to justify their continued detention.


The government has refused to do this arguing it would be against the interests of national security.


The ruling should also open the doors of the federal court system to the 270 still held at the isolated base.


Detainees have long protested that they had been mistreated, and have questioned the very legality of the Guantanamo military tribunals, which the administration has said will try the cases of 80 prisoners.


The Supreme Court took up the issue of Guantanamo inmates in 2004 and again in 2006, ruling both times that detainees had a statutory -- legal but not constitutional -- right to contest their indefinite detention before an independent judge, a legal process known as habeas corpus.


But, urged by the Bush administration, Congress in 2006 passed new legislation that forbade them from seeking justice in a federal court until they are judged by a special military tribunal.


It was not immediately clear how Thursday's ruling would affect those detainees still held in the jail.


Australian David Hicks is the only "war on terror" detainee to have so far been sentenced at Guantanamo after pleading guilty in a deal with US authorities which allowed him to serve out his nine-month term at home.


The most important trial of five alleged suspects in the September 11, 2002 attacks is not due to get fully underway until the summer, after they were read the charges against them at a hearing last week.


The first detainee who could be affected is Yemeni Salim Hamdan, accused of being the driver and personal bodyguard of the leader of the Al-Qaeda terror network, Osama bin Laden.


An initial appeal by Hamdan led to the 2006 Supreme Court decision, and his lawyers have already filed an appeal to a Washington court which was awaiting the Supreme Court decision before taking up the case.


Since the camp was opened in January 2002 to deal with the suspects rounded up in the US "war on terror" it has under gone major changes.


Two-thirds of the 800 prisoners who have passed through its barbed-wire gates have been freed without charge after several years in captivity.


But the remaining prisoners are often held in solitary confinement, allowed little contact with their families and the outside world, and have no certainty about their fate.


Four detainees have committed suicide, and hunger strikes are frequent, leading to the force feeding of prisoners by their military guards.


The initial open air cages, which triggered a storm of international criticism, have long been emptied and today have returned to grass and the native iguanas.


And most of the prisoners, even those which the US authorities have said could be freed, are now housed in modern cells modelled on those in US high-security jails.


Both candidates to succeed Bush in the November elections, Republican John McCain and his Democratic rival Barack Obama have said they will close the prison.


The White House has also repeatedly said it would shut Guantanamo down, but has failed so far to come with an alternative, or to find countries willing to take some prisoners, such as Muslim Xighurs from northwest China, who face repression at home.
 
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Reb, i don't understand ... are you in support of the US torturing these men in hidden camps (or on aircraft carriers - read up on that)?

If the US government has evidence that these men are terrorists they will be prosecuted as such, and detained appropriately under the law.

Beware giving a government the ability to declare people terrorists and vanish them away without due process, it reeks of fascism.

I'll echo Ron Paul here when he states: "torture is wrong and unamerican."
 

Colonel_Reb

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I'm against torture too, but I'm not for giving people who aren't US citizens rights that are exclusive to us.
 
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This is not good for the prisoners. I expect to see prisoners in the future being thrown out of airplanes and over the sides of boats. That would be the easiest way to handle this.
What were the supremes thinking? We need leadership that understands the problems and can solve them. I don't see it coming soon.
 

guest301

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Water boarding made 9-11 conspirator Sheik Muhhammed reportedly talk in two seconds after months of stonewalling. Lives were saved and multiple other terrorists were arrested. Whether you agree with the war or not(I do), don't hamstring our troops or our goverment in prosecuting these terrorists and giving them the same rights we as US citizens have. I am with Reb and Screamingeagle on this one. What a little traitor and worm Justice Anthony Kennedy has turned out to be.
 
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I cannot believe a self-professed christian is arguing for torture.

The ends justify the means is what you just wrote in a nutshell, guest.

Now tell me how a country that tortures people is any different from a terrorist organization?

How many people have to die that had nothing to do with 9/11 before our revenge is satisfied?
 

guest301

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I don't consider waterboarding torture in the true sense of the word. Torture to me is breaking limbs, pulling teeth, taking a eye out etc... The kind our enemies routinely practice. This is a difficult and very dangerous world we live in full of bad choices and worse choices. If techniques like waterboarding, sleep deprivation, round the clock interrogation saves American lives then so be it.
When a cop has to slam a phone book into the back of a child molestors head repeatedly(no bruises) to get a admission of guilt to keep a six year old from having to testify then I can live with that. I also in a extreme situation can live with a real life Jack Bauer taking a drill to a terrorists knee cap in order to find a nuclear suitcase bomb in the middle of New York and save millions. Say bye-bye to that kneecap. Mild methods like waterboarding should be rarely used and they are, and extreme methods only used when it saves multiple lives of the innocent. I didn't lose my common sense or my will to fight evil people almost at their level when I became a Christian. I am still a man. I am not comfortable with torture at all but sometimes it's a necessary evil in a world that gets worse and worse each day.

Edited by: guest301
 
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Ah, i see. So as long as its mental torture, thats ok with you. No physical marks = a ok.

How far away are we from the government calling caste football a hate site? Declaring us dangerous? Would you mind being waterboarded while being detained indefinately with no contact with others, and no trial?

The government is begging you for power they should not have. If these men are indeed terrorists, let us try them and detain them. The only reason the government would want to circumvent this is because they either don't have sufficient evidence, or want to do wicked things to them.

There is no such thing as "necessary evil", guest. But i will leave that between you and god when you hit the pearly gates.
 

Don Wassall

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InfamousOne, I'm in full agreement with you. The Bush regime's love of torture and the mass slaughtering of civilians is despicable and indefensible and has ruined this country's image in the world, the repercussions of which ("blowback") are going to get worse and worse over time. The neo-cons have needlessly turned virtually the entire worldinto enemiesofthe U.S. because of their insistence on this country carrying out Israel's policies. (Big Business is the other partner behind America's suicidal foreign policy.)


Every negative trend, from torture to collective punishment to sealing off neighborhoods (which spread from Israel to Baghdad and nowto the U.S.withD.C.and Philly about to jump on the bandwagon) is right out of the Israeli apartheid handbook. If you want to see what the future will look like for white Americans look no further than the plight of the Palestinians in "democratic" Israel.
 
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That ruling is a breathe of fresh air. Torture? Not only is it wrong from a theological standpoint, it makes matters worse for our young men when they fall into the hands of those whom they are fighting with. I am surprised just how many Americans believe that torture is okay. I do not mean to ridicule any fellow caste footballers (as I agree with pretty much everyone much more often than I disagree with them)but common man. Be serious. America has diverted off course for arguably the last 60-70 years. This whole torture thing is just another symptom of the terminal illness that the U.S.of A. is suffering from.
 

guest301

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InfamousOne said:
There is no such thing as "necessary evil", guest. But i will leave that between you and god when you hit the pearly gates.

You are probably right. Because if it's necessary, it's probably not evil. I stand behind my post and thank you for "leaving that between God and I" at the pearly gates. Apparantly torture under no circumstances is ok with you even the very mild waterboarding. So what would you do if a nuclear bomb was hidden in one of our cities and the clock is ticking and we have a suspect and he is not talking. I hope we have those willing to do the necessary thing to save lives. I am not with the goverment on everything and some segments of the Patriot Act make me very nervous because it can be abused but we can't fight these guys always with Marquis of Queensbury(spelling?) rules. Those terrorists are willing to die for their cause and take as many with them as they can, we have to be willing sometimes to give them the death and pain that they want and so richly deserve in order to save lives. It's always a last resort but it is still a resort. I have respect for others here that differ with me on this.
 
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Aragorn - And we have respect for your opinion as well. I consider the people on these boards brothers in whom i can honestly speak my mind about things. In this suffocating PC world you gents keep me sane.

So i say this with respect - f**k Jack Bauer. Jack Bauer was sold to you as a hard ass avenger who got revenge on terrorists. Jack Bauer is a television character. Jack Bauer is not real.

The reality: the borders are still wide open for anyone to sneak in because big business is more important then your safety to these people. Scientifically there is no basis for "dirty bombs", they effect a very small amount of people and are mainly a psychological attack -wiki it and read under "public perceptions". Osama Bin Laden is still at large. 9/11 was perpetrated by Saudis, not Iraqi's.

The US government will continue to label countries that they wish to attack with the "terrorist or terrorist supporter" label. (see Iran) They will demand more and more of your freedoms for safety, after all the only way they can protect you is if they monitor everything and everyone and dispose of anyone who is radical in ideology, right?

Does this sound like America or a communist country?Edited by: InfamousOne
 

guest301

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I understand what you are saying and agree with maybe 60% of it. I also certainly understand that Jack Bauer is not a real character as evidenced by the fact that Keifer Sutherland just got out of jail for a DUI.
smiley36.gif

But I do hope America has some real life Jack Bauers willing and ready enough to do the dirty work and suffer the consequences in silence if they get caught. If you don't think dirty bombs, nuclear suitcase bombs, biological warfare and suicide bombers are not part of out very near future then you are a eternal optimist.
If you and others here want to say that they hate us for our support of Israel and the war in Iraq then so be it. I say they hate us because they hate us no matter what we do. They radical Islamists want to destroy us and they are on a active campaign to do just that. That is of course if we don't destroy ourselves first. Being pro-war on terrorism and pro-Israel is a lonely feeling on this site and most of you have a completly different perspective on it,politically and theologically. It is what it is around here and that's why I rarely get on my soapbox about it. Been there, done that in my time here. But again I ask you, what would you do in the nuclear suitcase bomb in a major american city situation that I posted earlier? Would you torture or not?
 
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Yes, in my previous reply i gave my answer.

Dirty bombs are not real, at least not in the form that you imagine from the television. Heres a direct link to wiki, which at the bottom has references:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_bomb#Public_perception_of _risks[/url]

Here's how we defeat terrorists - we take away the middle easts stranglehold on oil with technology. Open up the free market and let our scientists and free market work. The Ethanol debacle is proof that the government can not solve problems, the free market can.

Without funding from rich oil barons, there is no support for the already miniscule terrorist organizations. Without the US bombing random middle eastern countries there is no incentive for new radicals to be born that would be willing to murder americans.

No torture required. And it cements Americas strength if we can develop and maintain alternative fuel markets first.

The future of our world will not revolve around terrorism in my opinion, it will be war and competition over oil, our addiction.
 

guest301

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I certainly agree with you on moving away from our need from any oil that comes out of the Middle East. We need to drill more off our coasts, ANWAR and parts of the Colorado rockies where multilple millions of barrels of oil is just waiting to be drilled. We also need some more cars and gas stations equiped with flex fuel. I also think we should build more nuclear power stations and oil refinaries which we stopped building thirty years ago. We also need to put our scientists to work as you suggested to think up some alternative energy sources we can use in the future when all the oil runs out. Clearly our goverment is too much into globalization and robbing us of our self-sufficiency in order to bring this new world order and world goverment that's coming and on the horizon. Edited by: guest301
 
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