Boxing enthusasts have debated whether or not certain fights were fixed. Does any one have an opinion of the Liston - Clay fights? Did Liston take a dive in one or both of of them? What about the so-called invisible punch? Could Liston have been intimidated by the Black Muslims or the mob?
Liston-Clay = Fix?
- Thread starter Bart
- Start date
Bart,
I have no doubt that both Clay-Liston fights, and all of Clay-Ali's
other fights for that matter, were fixed. Sonny Liston was a real
monster, and for him to "not answer the bell" in the first fight, after
not being hurt at all by Clay's usual theatrics in the ring, was
totally unbelievable. As for the second fight, I don't think even
mainstream "journalists" thought that fight was legitimate. Liston was
floored in the first round by what was termed "the invisible punch,"
and the Clay-Ali legend was born. Liston later died under mysterious
circumstances, and I don't think it's far-fetched to believe he was
murdered because he was threatening to speak out about taking a dive
against Clay. The TV show "Unsolved Mysteries" did a segment about
Liston's death several years ago, and theorized he was murdered,
perhaps by organized crime figures, but they predictably stayed away
from the subject of Ali, or the Black Muslims. They instead posited a
ridiculous theory that Liston had refused to take a dive against white
boxer Chuck Wepner, and had been killed as a result. Yeah, the mob sure
fixed a lot of fights for white fighters back then.
My son was watching one of those "classic" Ali fights on ESPN Classic
tonight, and I watched most of it with him. It brought back some bad
memories of just how corrupt boxing became when Ali was in his prime.
Oscar Bonavena won the first 14 rounds on my scorecard, and at one
point landed 22 straight punches in a middle round (undoubtedly one the
judges scored for "The Greatest"), without announcer Howard Cosell
mentioning a single one. Whenever Bonavena would land a solid shot,
Cosell would be there to assure the viewers "that punch did no damage,"
or words to that effect. Joe Frazier's manager provided commentary with
Cosell, and as the 15th round started, both announcers stated "You have
to think Ali is ahead on the scorecard." Well, no, I didn't have to
think that, because he hadn't won a single round in my book! Ali "won"
those rounds the same way he always "won" rounds; by dancing, gesturing
towards the crowd, flashing a handful of jabs (90% of which missed) and
his other usual assortment of showboating antics. Then, about midway
through the final round, which was being won again by Bonavena, Ali
landed a weak punch to the chin, and Bonavena went down like he'd been
shot with a bazooka. After he stumbled to his feet, Ali quickly knocked
him down again with another lame blow. The problem I had with this was
twofold; first of all, Bonavena went down after being hit with a very
weak punch. Second, the referee never started a count! He didn't count
to 10 and check Bonavena out. Then, seconds after Cosell conveniently
informed us that "if he goes down again, under New York state rules,
it's over," Ali knocked Bonavena down for a third time, with a third
unspectacular, non-knockout type of punch. I just shook my head in
disbelief. Sometimes it's good for us to watch these fights, which are
no more realistic than Pro Wrestling matches, so we don't forget just
how ridiculous this self- proclaimed "Greatest" was. I think that
Muhammed Ali was the single most insidious individual, in terms
of the negative impact he left on American culture, in the history of
modern times. It is a travesty that this loud, arrogant, impolite and
poorly educated buffoon was promoted as a great "athlete" and then
permitted to succeed through the machinations of corrupt forces, to the
unwitting delight of a sleepwalking American public. He is now truly a
pathetic figure, but it is just as sad to see how he is now treated as
some sort of great figure, whose historical significance rivals that of
the Founding Fathers. If not for Clay-Ali, none of the absurd black
athletes of the past 35 years would know that boasting, arrogance and
self-promotion are the kinds of qualities that one is supposed to
display during competitive sports. We can lay their laughable conceit
and lew behavior squarely at the feet of this one hateful man, and the
society that promoted him, cheered him and considered him, against all
reason, to be a hero.
I have no doubt that both Clay-Liston fights, and all of Clay-Ali's
other fights for that matter, were fixed. Sonny Liston was a real
monster, and for him to "not answer the bell" in the first fight, after
not being hurt at all by Clay's usual theatrics in the ring, was
totally unbelievable. As for the second fight, I don't think even
mainstream "journalists" thought that fight was legitimate. Liston was
floored in the first round by what was termed "the invisible punch,"
and the Clay-Ali legend was born. Liston later died under mysterious
circumstances, and I don't think it's far-fetched to believe he was
murdered because he was threatening to speak out about taking a dive
against Clay. The TV show "Unsolved Mysteries" did a segment about
Liston's death several years ago, and theorized he was murdered,
perhaps by organized crime figures, but they predictably stayed away
from the subject of Ali, or the Black Muslims. They instead posited a
ridiculous theory that Liston had refused to take a dive against white
boxer Chuck Wepner, and had been killed as a result. Yeah, the mob sure
fixed a lot of fights for white fighters back then.
My son was watching one of those "classic" Ali fights on ESPN Classic
tonight, and I watched most of it with him. It brought back some bad
memories of just how corrupt boxing became when Ali was in his prime.
Oscar Bonavena won the first 14 rounds on my scorecard, and at one
point landed 22 straight punches in a middle round (undoubtedly one the
judges scored for "The Greatest"), without announcer Howard Cosell
mentioning a single one. Whenever Bonavena would land a solid shot,
Cosell would be there to assure the viewers "that punch did no damage,"
or words to that effect. Joe Frazier's manager provided commentary with
Cosell, and as the 15th round started, both announcers stated "You have
to think Ali is ahead on the scorecard." Well, no, I didn't have to
think that, because he hadn't won a single round in my book! Ali "won"
those rounds the same way he always "won" rounds; by dancing, gesturing
towards the crowd, flashing a handful of jabs (90% of which missed) and
his other usual assortment of showboating antics. Then, about midway
through the final round, which was being won again by Bonavena, Ali
landed a weak punch to the chin, and Bonavena went down like he'd been
shot with a bazooka. After he stumbled to his feet, Ali quickly knocked
him down again with another lame blow. The problem I had with this was
twofold; first of all, Bonavena went down after being hit with a very
weak punch. Second, the referee never started a count! He didn't count
to 10 and check Bonavena out. Then, seconds after Cosell conveniently
informed us that "if he goes down again, under New York state rules,
it's over," Ali knocked Bonavena down for a third time, with a third
unspectacular, non-knockout type of punch. I just shook my head in
disbelief. Sometimes it's good for us to watch these fights, which are
no more realistic than Pro Wrestling matches, so we don't forget just
how ridiculous this self- proclaimed "Greatest" was. I think that
Muhammed Ali was the single most insidious individual, in terms
of the negative impact he left on American culture, in the history of
modern times. It is a travesty that this loud, arrogant, impolite and
poorly educated buffoon was promoted as a great "athlete" and then
permitted to succeed through the machinations of corrupt forces, to the
unwitting delight of a sleepwalking American public. He is now truly a
pathetic figure, but it is just as sad to see how he is now treated as
some sort of great figure, whose historical significance rivals that of
the Founding Fathers. If not for Clay-Ali, none of the absurd black
athletes of the past 35 years would know that boasting, arrogance and
self-promotion are the kinds of qualities that one is supposed to
display during competitive sports. We can lay their laughable conceit
and lew behavior squarely at the feet of this one hateful man, and the
society that promoted him, cheered him and considered him, against all
reason, to be a hero.
G
Guest
Guest
Liston 2 may have been fixed or Liston just did'nt want to keep fighting Liston 1 however was not fixed.bigunreal said:
But i know that in your mind every fight by a black fighter must have been fixed right ?.
White_Savage
Mentor
Well no, EVERY fight with a black fighter in it can't be fixed, no more than every black is a convicted felon (just 25% of them). It simply wouldn't pay to fix every fight for one thing. But since blacks commit felonies and other bad behavior at least 10 times as often as whites, it would be reasonable to suggest they are more likely to be involved in fishy fights than whites, who, if they refuse to dive, may suffer from short boxing careers, or short lives.
Fistfighter-
Boxing has been generally regarded as "shady" since its inception. Even
before blacks began to dominate the fight game, it was filled with
crooked characters, bought judges and fighters being asked to "take a
dive." There were references to this dishonest aspect of the fight game
in literature, movies and television for decades. Curiously, when
Clay-Ali came along, these cultural references stopped, as did any
general idea among the public that this "shadiness" and corruption
existed in boxing, even though modern fights (Clay-Ali, Sugar Ray
Leonard, Tyson, etc.) were more transparently "fixed" than ever before.
Therefore, this is not simply a racial issue, although the promotion
and celebration of Clay-Ali most definitely had racial ramifications,
and in fact helped give birth to the nightmare that is Don King's
America. In other words, if boxing were dominated by whites, I think
that due to the nature of the game itself, and the disreputable people
who run it, many fights would still be fixed.
Boxing has been generally regarded as "shady" since its inception. Even
before blacks began to dominate the fight game, it was filled with
crooked characters, bought judges and fighters being asked to "take a
dive." There were references to this dishonest aspect of the fight game
in literature, movies and television for decades. Curiously, when
Clay-Ali came along, these cultural references stopped, as did any
general idea among the public that this "shadiness" and corruption
existed in boxing, even though modern fights (Clay-Ali, Sugar Ray
Leonard, Tyson, etc.) were more transparently "fixed" than ever before.
Therefore, this is not simply a racial issue, although the promotion
and celebration of Clay-Ali most definitely had racial ramifications,
and in fact helped give birth to the nightmare that is Don King's
America. In other words, if boxing were dominated by whites, I think
that due to the nature of the game itself, and the disreputable people
who run it, many fights would still be fixed.
Bigunreal, you have provided a lot of interesting observations. Do you have a take on yet another strange Ali fight, the one with Foreman in Africa, where in George claims to have been drugged or something which caused what he now thinks was a religious experience.
G
Guest
Guest
You do know that Foreman HIMSELF later admitted that he made those allegations up because he was bitter about the fight right ?.Bart said:
Bart-
The Ali-Foreman fight was definitely one of his most orchestrated. The
whole "Rope-A-Dope" nonsense, along with announcer Howard Cosell's
curious ability to "figure out" Ali's strategy well before anyone else,
bore a strong resemblance to the kind of entertainment seen at
Wrestlemania. Foreman was a huge, powerful young knockout artist, who
had destroyed everyone he'd fought up to that point (including Joe
Frazier). I liked Foreman up until that point, but he clearly threw the
fight. I have never regained my respect for him because of that.
Ali really should have been one of Pro Wrestling's biggest stars. With
his infantile rhymes, his clownish behavior, and the WWF-type slogans
associated with his career ("Rope-A-Dope," "Thrilla In Manilla," etc.),
he was perfect for that kind of phony competition. Unfortunately, the
powers-that-be made him into something much bigger (and more dangerous)
than that. His influence was disastrous to our society, and continues
to posion the minds of every black youngster (and plenty of non-black
ones as well) who can dribble, pass or catch a ball. We can only
imagine how much better our world would be if he hadn't had such
powerful forces lifting him up and assuring his success.
The Ali-Foreman fight was definitely one of his most orchestrated. The
whole "Rope-A-Dope" nonsense, along with announcer Howard Cosell's
curious ability to "figure out" Ali's strategy well before anyone else,
bore a strong resemblance to the kind of entertainment seen at
Wrestlemania. Foreman was a huge, powerful young knockout artist, who
had destroyed everyone he'd fought up to that point (including Joe
Frazier). I liked Foreman up until that point, but he clearly threw the
fight. I have never regained my respect for him because of that.
Ali really should have been one of Pro Wrestling's biggest stars. With
his infantile rhymes, his clownish behavior, and the WWF-type slogans
associated with his career ("Rope-A-Dope," "Thrilla In Manilla," etc.),
he was perfect for that kind of phony competition. Unfortunately, the
powers-that-be made him into something much bigger (and more dangerous)
than that. His influence was disastrous to our society, and continues
to posion the minds of every black youngster (and plenty of non-black
ones as well) who can dribble, pass or catch a ball. We can only
imagine how much better our world would be if he hadn't had such
powerful forces lifting him up and assuring his success.
Colonel_Reb
Hall of Famer
No doubt about that. Some of Clay's fights were fixed no doubt, yeah there were others before and others since, but Clay was probably the worst. Because he fixed so many, I would say the only really good fighter he fought legit was Frazier. Clay is an over-rated hype-o-drome who is the Caste System's favorite "icon." A star in the WWF indeed!
.[/QUOTE] You do know that Foreman HIMSELF later admitted that he made those allegations up because he was bitter about the fight right ?. [/QUOTE]
No, I never heard that George had retracted the allegations of being drugged in the Ali match. If he did, then I guess my point about that fight is moot.
No, I never heard that George had retracted the allegations of being drugged in the Ali match. If he did, then I guess my point about that fight is moot.
