Kan. abortion doc killed in churc

jaxvid

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Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held

I don't get this. Here's a guy performing late term abortions and he's a religious guy. Goes to a Lutheran Church, is an usher, has a large family. What's up with that? What part of Christianity justifies the late term abortion? I can understand non-religious people using some utilitarian ideology to rationalize their support for abortion but how does a (supposedly) devout Christian do it?

I can also see some Christians supporting abortion in the abstract because they don't deal with it personally but here's a guy that's cutting into wombs and snuffing out babies lifes. How did he reconcile that?

The story is interesting for all the problems he has had with his clinic. I wonder why he was still working at 67? Shouldn't he be retired unless he really like killing "fetuses". Weird.
 

StarWars

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Simple. This guy likes money. He has no regard for human life when money is a factor. I don't agree with murder but to be frank I am glad he is dead. Such a hypocrit. How anybody, religious or not, can agree with abortion is beyond me.
 

Colonel_Reb

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It is tough to figure jaxvid, but StarWars makes a good point when bringing up money.
 

guest301

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jaxvid said:
Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held

I don't get this. Here's a guy performing late term abortions and he's a religious guy. Goes to a Lutheran Church, is an usher, has a large family. What's up with that? What part of Christianity justifies the late term abortion? I can understand non-religious people using some utilitarian ideology to rationalize their support for abortion but how does a (supposedly) devout Christian do it?

I can also see some Christians supporting abortion in the abstract because they don't deal with it personally but here's a guy that's cutting into wombs and snuffing out babies lifes. How did he reconcile that?

The story is interesting for all the problems he has had with his clinic. I wonder why he was still working at 67? Shouldn't he be retired unless he really like killing "fetuses". Weird.


I was thinking the same thing Jaxvid. He's a member of the reformed Lutheran church which is usually all about the money, he has loads of money and therefore welcome in that sorry excuse for a church. I am glad "Tiller the baby killer" is dead but I don't like how he was killed, I would rather it have been a traffic accident or something similar.
One or two christians taking the law into their own hands makes the abortion problem worse but a million christians rising up and doing the same thing I would have no problem with. We are suppossed to protect the innocent and we are doing a lousy job of doing just that. I have lots of other things to say about this but I am too worked up and angry to write a coherent post right now.
 

whiteCB

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StarWars said:
How anybody, religious or not, can agree with abortion is beyond me.

Well some people, myself included, believe it's a woman's own personal right to choose. However, it really doesn't matter if abortion's legal or illegal. Women who don't want a baby are going to get what they want whether its in a legal clinic or as it was in the past a back alley somewhere. Now I don't like these late term abortions because I mean come on after 20 weeks its like you gotta have the chips either all in or out.
 

StarWars

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The fetus is human potential. Why does a woman have the right to kill it? Women are supposed to bring life into this world, not take it. There are condoms, birth control, and the day after pill. These are much better choices than a dark alley. It's not like she has to raise the child, either.
 

jaxvid

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whiteCB said:
StarWars said:
How anybody, religious or not, can agree with abortion is beyond me.

Well some people, myself included, believe it's a woman's own personal right to choose. However, it really doesn't matter if abortion's legal or illegal. Women who don't want a baby are going to get what they want whether its in a legal clinic or as it was in the past a back alley somewhere. Now I don't like these late term abortions because I mean come on after 20 weeks its like you gotta have the chips either all in or out.

The woman "chooses" when she opts to have unprotected sex. After that there is a 3rd party involved that posseses all of the rights any other human being has. After conception the "choice" involves someone else and that someone else should have rights also.
 

White Shogun

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I don't think a woman should have the right to kill my child. Period.

A woman can choose to have a baby and stick a man with 18 years worth of child support against his wishes, or she can choose to kill his baby whether he wants it or not?

No matter how you slice it (no pun intended,) that's just wrong. On multiple levels.
 

Poacher

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Like most of you I simply don't understand how this church could tolerate a practicing baby killer in its ranks.

I've heard that he charged 5K for a late-term abortion i.e., murder.
 

Colonel_Reb

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Good posts Star Wars, jaxvid, and Shogun, and I agree with you.
 
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The abortion/feminist wing of loons has no power, Obama gives these old hags and back alley profiteers a throwaway gesture of fed marshalls and that is it. Message sent: you are weak. Nat Geo will run invitro camera specials about fetuses and people are fascinated, old childless hags and the back alley profiteers will shriek and holla for abortion and people will say little in their support. Problem being the anti-abortion folks are just that and not really Prolife.
 

guest301

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This guy has literally aborted(murdered) 60,000 babies in about 30 years as a doctor. Alot of those were late term abortions and there are only three doctors in the country who even do those type of abortions. Well there are only two doctors now. The pro-life side has been gradually winning people over in the court of public opinion with a recent gallup poll saying that a majority of the country is now pro-life. I hope the killing of "Tiller the baby killer" doesn't change all that.
 

ToughJ.Riggins

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I decided not to talk politics, but this is more of a religious issue to me. I was thinking recently when I was writing some stuff of what I think the legal system should do on this issue. So here's my short "essay" on it with pro-life answers to pro choice questions.

Doctors who administer abortion pills or possibly even doctors who do abortions as late as 12 weeks- have what I call- the "blinders on".
George Tiller did not have the blinders on- he was a truly EVIL despicable man and a Christian fraud- this type angers Christ the most. This man performed partial birth abortions- Any reasonable human being would "throw up" or want to cry after watching one of these. Most would probably grab the hand of the doctor trying to administer one if they were forced to watch one.

I have talked to two doctors in my family and both say at this late stage it takes longer to stab the baby in the head with the scissors and destroy it's brain (I'm serious that's how this procedure is done) than take it all the way out. They said that never have they heard of a situation where this late term abortion saved a woman's life or health and that it is probably propaganda of Planned Parenthood and NARAL.

An abrupted Placenta is a situation that can cause bleeding in the late term for a pregnant woman (if I recall what I was told) but they perform a C section to save the mother's life. It is VIRTUALLY an impossible scenario- that a partial birth abortion with the fetus as long as 8 or 9 months in the womb- could save a woman's life and it has never saved a mother's life before if I'm not mistaken.

At 12 weeks former abortion doctor- (who I believe now is)- a Jew for Jesus, Bernard Nathanson- showed a film that the baby lets out a silent scream when aborted with a vacuum.

I personally believe Roe vs. Wade should be overturned and a constitutional amendment should be added banning all surgical abortions in the United States due to the embryo being able to feel pain as shown by Nathanson's film. Pill abortions (that work up to 8-9 weeks) should be left up to the states and the morning after pill could be protected by the constitution as a compromise and "necessary evil". Pill abortions could be protected by law for rape and incest victims and obviously a woman should have the right to an abortion "at any time" if her life is in danger.

Lastly I will say that it is a lie that being pro-life is anti-female. Half the babies aborted are females. Men are now tracked down through their social security numbers and can't find work if they don't pay child support. Men are forced to be held accountable. Also, no one tells the woman she has to raise the child- she can put her baby for adoption.

I have some family including my fiance who think every abortion should be "CONSTITUTIONALLY" banned unless the woman's life is endangered. However, I think some things should be left up to the states and realize the plight of rape victims and also that "rich woman would fly to other countries to have an abortion if it was outright banned" and "poor woman would have back alley abortions".

I'm completely pro-life, but we don't have the empowerment in our movement or the personal responsibility in our culture to outright stop all abortions yet- so we may have to, step by step, make it illegal. My version of a law I diagrammed would be a temporary compromise that would make abortions VIRTUALLY illegal in many places and would make them VERY RARE.

I don't shed a tear for this George Tiller-his killing didn't help the pro life movement (no man has the right to take the law into his own hands- to send a man for his judgment day before he naturally dies), but the world is a much better place without him. Not to be heartless, but it's kind of ironic that Tiller was gunned down in church.
 

Charles Martel

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George Tiller was the fartherest thing from a Christian, he was a mass murderer. It's sad that someone like that was an usher in a church.
 

StarWars

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ToughJ.Riggins said:
I decided not to talk politics, but this is more of a religious issue to me. I was thinking recently when I was writing some stuff of what I think the legal system should do on this issue. So here's my short "essay" on it with pro-life answers to pro choice questions.

Doctors who administer abortion pills or possibly even doctors who do abortions as late as 12 weeks- have what I call- the "blinders on".
George Tiller did not have the blinders on- he was a truly EVIL despicable man and a Christian fraud- this type angers Christ the most. This man performed partial birth abortions- Any reasonable human being would "throw up" or want to cry after watching one of these. Most would probably grab the hand of the doctor trying to administer one if they were forced to watch one.

I have talked to two doctors in my family and both say at this late stage it takes longer to stab the baby in the head with the scissors and destroy it's brain (I'm serious that's how this procedure is done) than take it all the way out. They said that never have they heard of a situation where this late term abortion saved a woman's life or health and that it is probably propaganda of Planned Parenthood and NARAL.

An abrupted Placenta is a situation that can cause bleeding in the late term for a pregnant woman (if I recall what I was told) but they perform a C section to save the mother's life. It is VIRTUALLY an impossible scenario- that a partial birth abortion with the fetus as long as 8 or 9 months in the womb- could save a woman's life and it has never saved a mother's life before if I'm not mistaken.

At 12 weeks former abortion doctor- (who I believe now is)- a Jew for Jesus, Bernard Nathanson- showed a film that the baby lets out a silent scream when aborted with a vacuum.

I personally believe Roe vs. Wade should be overturned and a constitutional amendment should be added banning all surgical abortions in the United States due to the embryo being able to feel pain as shown by Nathanson's film. Pill abortions (that work up to 8-9 weeks) should be left up to the states and the morning after pill could be protected by the constitution as a compromise and "necessary evil". Pill abortions could be protected by law for rape and incest victims and obviously a woman should have the right to an abortion "at any time" if her life is in danger.

Lastly I will say that it is a lie that being pro-life is anti-female. Half the babies aborted are females. Men are now tracked down through their social security numbers and can't find work if they don't pay child support. Men are forced to be held accountable. Also, no one tells the woman she has to raise the child- she can put her baby for adoption.

I have some family including my fiance who think every abortion should be "CONSTITUTIONALLY" banned unless the woman's life is endangered. However, I think some things should be left up to the states and realize the plight of rape victims and also that "rich woman would fly to other countries to have an abortion if it was outright banned" and "poor woman would have back alley abortions".

I'm completely pro-life, but we don't have the empowerment in our movement or the personal responsibility in our culture to outright stop all abortions yet- so we may have to, step by step, make it illegal. My version of a law I diagrammed would be a temporary compromise that would make abortions VIRTUALLY illegal in many places and would make them VERY RARE.

I don't shed a tear for this George Tiller-his killing didn't help the pro life movement (no man has the right to take the law into his own hands- to send a man for his judgment day before he naturally dies), but the world is a much better place without him. Not to be heartless, but it's kind of ironic that Tiller was gunned down in church.


I'm gonna throw up.
 

Menelik

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StarWars said:
ToughJ.Riggins said:
I decided not to talk politics, but this is more of a religious issue to me. I was thinking recently when I was writing some stuff of what I think the legal system should do on this issue. So here's my short "essay" on it with pro-life answers to pro choice questions.

Doctors who administer abortion pills or possibly even doctors who do abortions as late as 12 weeks- have what I call- the "blinders on".
George Tiller did not have the blinders on- he was a truly EVIL despicable man and a Christian fraud- this type angers Christ the most. This man performed partial birth abortions- Any reasonable human being would "throw up" or want to cry after watching one of these. Most would probably grab the hand of the doctor trying to administer one if they were forced to watch one.

I have talked to two doctors in my family and both say at this late stage it takes longer to stab the baby in the head with the scissors and destroy it's brain (I'm serious that's how this procedure is done) than take it all the way out. They said that never have they heard of a situation where this late term abortion saved a woman's life or health and that it is probably propaganda of Planned Parenthood and NARAL.

An abrupted Placenta is a situation that can cause bleeding in the late term for a pregnant woman (if I recall what I was told) but they perform a C section to save the mother's life. It is VIRTUALLY an impossible scenario- that a partial birth abortion with the fetus as long as 8 or 9 months in the womb- could save a woman's life and it has never saved a mother's life before if I'm not mistaken.

At 12 weeks former abortion doctor- (who I believe now is)- a Jew for Jesus, Bernard Nathanson- showed a film that the baby lets out a silent scream when aborted with a vacuum.

I personally believe Roe vs. Wade should be overturned and a constitutional amendment should be added banning all surgical abortions in the United States due to the embryo being able to feel pain as shown by Nathanson's film. Pill abortions (that work up to 8-9 weeks) should be left up to the states and the morning after pill could be protected by the constitution as a compromise and "necessary evil". Pill abortions could be protected by law for rape and incest victims and obviously a woman should have the right to an abortion "at any time" if her life is in danger.

Lastly I will say that it is a lie that being pro-life is anti-female. Half the babies aborted are females. Men are now tracked down through their social security numbers and can't find work if they don't pay child support. Men are forced to be held accountable. Also, no one tells the woman she has to raise the child- she can put her baby for adoption.

I have some family including my fiance who think every abortion should be "CONSTITUTIONALLY" banned unless the woman's life is endangered. However, I think some things should be left up to the states and realize the plight of rape victims and also that "rich woman would fly to other countries to have an abortion if it was outright banned" and "poor woman would have back alley abortions".

I'm completely pro-life, but we don't have the empowerment in our movement or the personal responsibility in our culture to outright stop all abortions yet- so we may have to, step by step, make it illegal. My version of a law I diagrammed would be a temporary compromise that would make abortions VIRTUALLY illegal in many places and would make them VERY RARE.

I don't shed a tear for this George Tiller-his killing didn't help the pro life movement (no man has the right to take the law into his own hands- to send a man for his judgment day before he naturally dies), but the world is a much better place without him. Not to be heartless, but it's kind of ironic that Tiller was gunned down in church.


I'm gonna throw up.




























Why?
 

StarWars

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I can't decide whether it's the scissors to the head or the mild scream a fetus gives out before being vacuumed.
 

whiteCB

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I liked what you had to say J.Tough. Very good argument. I'm still "pro-choice" per se but I agree that under no circumstance should an abortion be performed after 12 weeks. Lastly this whole entire issue should be a state's rights issue. This issue has no constitutional authority to be a "national" law. Each state should make up their own laws regarding the thing and leave it at that. The ideal scenario would be for if a woman lived in a state where it was illegal she would simply have to travel to a state where it was legal.
 

guest301

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The ideal thing is for abortions to be illegal period like it used to be. I am tired of hearing the old song about back alley abortions, that would happen rarely and the only person at fault would be the woman and whoever helped her do it. Would it be better to have the Feds out of it and become a states right issue, absolutely. But you would think at the very least that the Feds would protect someone's basic right to live. It's wrong no matter what unless the mother's life is at grave risk and any father that thinks it's ok to abort a child that comes from his seed then I wonder what kind of father he is to any children he may already have. It's not a female rights issue, never has been. Jaxvid already wrote a excellent post on this thread pertaining to all that nonsense.
 

Menelik

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guest301 said:
It's not a female rights issue, never has been.





It never has been a female rights issue. The court decided that it was a right to privacy issue. As for overturning it...good luck with that. Not that I don't agree with you but people are too self-centered and narcissistic to really care about the rights of the unborn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
 

guest301

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Menelik said:
guest301 said:
It's not a female rights issue, never has been.
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div> </div>
<div>It never has been a female rights issue. The court decided that it was a right to privacy issue. As for overturning it...good luck with that. Not that I don't agree with you but people are too self-centered and narcissistic to really care about the rights of the unborn.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade</div>


You are right in the sense that the courts consider it a right to privacy issue, but the feminist groups and pro-abortion crowd almost always couch it in terms of a woman's right to her own body issue. As far as Roe being overturned someday, we are likely only one vote away in the Supreme Court of doing just that. Hopefully Obama will not get to fill any more seats on it, his current pick doesn't change anything since the Latin bigot Sotomoyor will be replacing the liberal David Souter.
 

ToughJ.Riggins

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Sorry for the long depressing rant before. I wrote an essay on this in a college politics class and I was trying to educate forum readers even though the truth hurts.

Women AND MEN have to take responsibility when they decide to have sex b/c the fundamental reason for sex is to create life between two people who truly love each other. Even with contraceptives- pregnancy occasionally happens from error. Responsibility also means men who find work and refuse to pay child support should be put in jail.

Also, MSNBC claimed Bill O'Reilly may have incited Tiller's death because O'Reilly spoke the truth and called him "Tiller the baby killer". This is an outrageous attack on Mr. O'Reilly and from a leftist lune network. The NY Times called Tiller a HERO for performing abortions until the end of the third trimester (Partial Birth) before the federal ban was installed which Obama wants to lift. 72 percent of Americans polled are against late term abortions (generalized term).
 

ToughJ.Riggins

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guest301 said:
The ideal thing is for abortions to be illegal period like it used to be. I am tired of hearing the old song about back alley abortions, that would happen rarely and the only person at fault would be the woman and whoever helped her do it. Would it be better to have the Feds out of it and become a states right issue, absolutely. But you would think at the very least that the Feds would protect someone's basic right to live. It's wrong no matter what unless the mother's life is at grave risk and any father that thinks it's ok to abort a child that comes from his seed then I wonder what kind of father he is to any children he may already have. It's not a female rights issue, never has been. Jaxvid already wrote a excellent post on this thread pertaining to all that nonsense.

You have a very valid point. And basically it is not RIGHTEOUS to compromise on life or death (vital) issues. However, the movement does not have the power at this point to make a federal law with exceptions for rape and incest (debatable issue) and women whose life is endangered by their pregnancy (obviously a woman's right for abortion in this circumstance). A federal amendment "banning all surgical abortions" where the embryo or fetus can feel pain could be passed through scientific arguments and good education with exceptions for mothers whose life is endangered (or with serious health risk pregnancy complications that could cause life long serious disabilities).

Also, if there was a federal ban for pill abortions- even with exceptions- these pills would be hard to attain (due to no pharmaceutical market) if a woman's life was endangered or in the case of rape and incest which makes the issue more complicated. In this case we might have to set up an importation system from other countries.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
 

guest301

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TJR, no apologies necessary for your "long depressing rant". You brought up some valid points and sometimes the actual abortion procedure needs to be discussed in specific terms as to what actually happens to the baby and how it is killed. Most here at CF are probably aware of it anyway but the pain the baby goes through is rarely discussed in the mainstream when the abortion topic is brought up. As far as your reluctance to talk politics, don't sweat it. Abortion shouldn't be a political issue, it's a cause that everybody should be able to wrap themselves around. Too bad some people are so jaded about the topic and don't care.
 
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