HOF Snubs Jerry Kramer Again

[sport historian]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame Seniors Comittee today nominated Curley Culp and Dave Robinson. They will be considered with other nominees for induction in the final vote before next year's Super Bowl.

The big surprise was the rejection of famed Packer OG Jerry Kramer. He is best known for throwing the key block for the winning TD in the "Ice Bowl" 1967 NFL Title game.

Robinson was also a Lombardi Packer, but didn't join the team until 1963. Kramer was a key member of the 1961-62 championship teams. He also kicked 3 field goals that were the margin of victory in the 16-7 win over the Giants in the 1962 title game.

Dave Robinson's selection was a surprise. In the NFL Network's Top 10 best players not in the HOF, he was not on the list.

On one level, maybe Robinson being a nominee over Kramer is not a surprise.

 

[bigunreal]

Again, the biggest snub of all time is Jerry Smith, whose stats were far superior to any other TE in NFL history when he retired, and are still very close to the best.

Virtually any very good (sometimes only good) black player has a shot at being inducted into the HOF. Robinson was never elite. Curley Culp? Ridiculous! Where is Bill Bergey? Or Mick Tingelhoff, universally considered the best center in the game throughout his long career? Gary Collins, Kevin Greene, Joe Jacoby- why aren't they in there?

Ralph Neely was selected to the NFL's all- 1960s team. How can he not be in the HOF, while his far inferior offensive line teammate Rayfield Wright is? Another Cowboy offensive lineman from that era, John Niland, went to 6 straight Pro Bowls. Why is the only guy from that dominant line whose in the HOF perhaps the weakest link on it? Also, of course, the only black on it.

Dick Anderson, Eddie Meador, Richie Pettibon, Pat Fischer- there are so many white DBs who should be in there. So many whites at every position, in fact, had much better careers than most all of the recent black inductees who were not deserving.

 

[jaxvid]

Again, the biggest snub of all time is Jerry Smith, whose stats were far superior to any other TE in NFL history when he retired, and are still very close to the best.

Virtually any very good (sometimes only good) black player has a shot at being inducted into the HOF. Robinson was never elite. Curley Culp? Ridiculous! Where is Bill Bergey? Or Mick Tingelhoff, universally considered the best center in the game throughout his long career? Gary Collins, Kevin Greene, Joe Jacoby- why aren't they in there?

Ralph Neely was selected to the NFL's all- 1960s team. How can he not be in the HOF, while his far inferior offensive line teammate Rayfield Wright is? Another Cowboy offensive lineman from that era, John Niland, went to 6 straight Pro Bowls. Why is the only guy from that dominant line whose in the HOF perhaps the weakest link on it? Also, of course, the only black on it.

Dick Anderson, Eddie Meador, Richie Pettibon, Pat Fischer- there are so many white DBs who should be in there. So many whites at every position, in fact, had much better careers than most all of the recent black inductees who were not deserving.

I was going to wait for sport historian to make some negative comment about your post but I didn't want to wait so........

good post, I agree completely. It's unfair. Kramer especially as he has had a high profile and thus distinguishes himself from many others of that era for that reason alone. I think this is another case of a guy getting the Ron Santo treatment. The 'Ron Santo' treatment is the way the modern media treats a White athlete from back in the day so as to make it look like 1) they are keeping standards high, and more importantly 2) to show solidarity with the CM thinking that if a White guy was a marginal HOF candidate back then it means he really is underserving now because everyone was RACISS RACISS RACISS back then

There really should have been a black, hispanic, or jew, in that spot. So screw you Santo and Kramer!! We actually know that the marginal black guy that didn't play was only benched because of White racism or the only reason you even played at all was because of White racism so hell no you won't get my HOF vote, I'll dig up some obscure black guy or a negro leaguer that is more deserving of it. Go off with your old White buddies and die and then you'll get my sympathy vote because the only time you can support a White guy from those days is if he is dead. At least that's the way it seems to me.

 

[white is right]

Until Ken Willard is a seniors candidate I'm not taking this process too seriously.... Yes Dave Robinson is an insult to Kramer maybe the NFL is telling Jerry to back off with leadership on the fight against the league and the union on older players benefits. I also think the writers want to let more marginal Black players into the hall to reflect the percentage of Black players that now play in the hall. I can see the presenters now saying " In the 2030 class for the hall of fame Donovan Mcnabb...."

 

[sport historian]

Again, the biggest snub of all time is Jerry Smith, whose stats were far superior to any other TE in NFL history when he retired, and are still very close to the best.

Virtually any very good (sometimes only good) black player has a shot at being inducted into the HOF. Robinson was never elite. Curley Culp? Ridiculous! Where is Bill Bergey? Or Mick Tingelhoff, universally considered the best center in the game throughout his long career? Gary Collins, Kevin Greene, Joe Jacoby- why aren't they in there?

Ralph Neely was selected to the NFL's all- 1960s team. How can he not be in the HOF, while his far inferior offensive line teammate Rayfield Wright is? Another Cowboy offensive lineman from that era, John Niland, went to 6 straight Pro Bowls. Why is the only guy from that dominant line whose in the HOF perhaps the weakest link on it? Also, of course, the only black on it.

Dick Anderson, Eddie Meador, Richie Pettibon, Pat Fischer- there are so many white DBs who should be in there. So many whites at every position, in fact, had much better careers than most all of the recent black inductees who were not deserving.

OK Jaxvid, I'm ready to make a negative comment about Bigunreal's post.

Jerry Smith is not a hall of famer. Dave Robinson was considered a very good LB, but until now I didn't see him mentioned a a hall of famer at the PFRA Forum, several members of which are close to the selectors. In news items today, I've seen Robinson called "the prototype of today's linebackers."

Curley Culp has been tabbed a HOF prospect for several years. Being on the 69 Chiefs helps him.

How do you know Rayfield Wright was inferior to Ralph Neely?

Bill Bergey has been looked at and considered good but not great. Tingelhoff is still a contender, Vikings four Super Bowl losses hurt. In one of which, Culp outplayed him.

Collins and Greene fall short. Jacoby will likely get in. Anderson, Meador, Petitbone, Fischer good but not HOF caliber.

Now I do agree that Kramer should be in and Robinson not. Kramer has been resented by many people ever since the Ice Bowl. They apparently think he got too much credit for the block on Jethro Pugh.

I think the rationale used by the anti-Kramer voters is that it was a double team block with center Ken Bowman helping and Kramer received too much publicity in the media of the time.

 

[sport historian]

Until Ken Willard is a seniors candidate I'm not taking this process too seriously.... Yes Dave Robinson is an insult to Kramer maybe the NFL is telling Jerry to back off with leadership on the fight against the league and the union on older players benefits. I also think the writers want to let more marginal Black players into the hall to reflect the percentage of Black players that now play in the hall. I can see the presenters now saying " In the 2030 class for the hall of fame Donovan Mcnabb...."

Why should Ken Willard be in the HOF?

 

[white is right]

Why should Ken Willard be in the HOF?

He retired in the top 10 of all time rushing totals. His totals had much greater intrinsic worth in 70's than now. Plus I have heard Chuck Foreman getting lobbied for and his totals aren't greater than Willard.

 

[sport historian]

He retired in the top 10 of all time rushing totals. His totals had much greater intrinsic worth in 70's than now. Plus I have heard Chuck Foreman getting lobbied for and his totals aren't greater than Willard.

Where has Chuck Foreman been lobbied for? Counting receiving yards Foreman's totals are somewhat higher than Willard's and he was a bigger part of his team's offense.

On the other hand. letting Floyd Little in has caused people to champion Larry Brown and other running backs with similar numbers.

 

[white is right]

This is for Historian. Note http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2010/02/08/how-about-ken-willard/ Willard's son emailed this to the Blog writer covering the 49'ers.....

 

[sport historian]

This is for Historian. Note http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2010/02/08/how-about-ken-willard/ Willard's son emailed this to the Blog writer covering the 49'ers.....

So what? If rushing yardage alone was the criteria, Doak Walker and Paul Hornung would not be in the HOF.

 

[white is right]

So what? If rushing yardage alone was the criteria, Doak Walker and Paul Hornung would not be in the HOF.

So if Huff says he was the fiercest blocker he ever played against and he has similar numbers to the "Franchise" what more does he need to make it to the hall? It seems like cronyism is alive and well in the Pro Football Hall of Fame voting process for marginal hall of fame candidates. I guess the "Franchise" must have picked up bar tabs back in the day at the airport lounge........:icon_rolleyes:

 

[Kaptain]

It's rare that any real NFL player career stat record survives more that a decade or two. Nearly all the personal stat records set by players from the golden days of football, the 1960's and 70's, are broken. In fact, the only one I can think of is Paul Krause's record of 71 interceptions. That to me is still the biggest HOF snub. I can't think of anyone that holds a record in a meaningful stat that is not in the HOF let alone someone that set the record a long time ago and still holds it.

 

[sport historian]

It's rare that any real NFL player career stat record survives more that a decade or two. Nearly all the personal stat records set by players from the golden days of football, the 1960's and 70's, are broken. In fact, the only one I can think of is Paul Krause's record of 71 interceptions. That to me is still the biggest HOF snub. I can't think of anyone that holds a record in a meaningful stat that is not in the HOF let alone someone that set the record a long time ago and still holds it.

Paul Krause was voted into the HOF in 1998. If you are going to opine on who should be in the HOF, it would be nice if you knew who all was in it.

 

[sport historian]

So if Huff says he was the fiercest blocker he ever played against and he has similar numbers to the "Franchise" what more does he need to make it to the hall? It seems like cronyism is alive and well in the Pro Football Hall of Fame voting process for marginal hall of fame candidates. I guess the "Franchise" must have picked up bar tabs back in the day at the airport lounge........:icon_rolleyes:

Yes, cronyism exists, or maybe it's a popularity contest.

Again, regarding Ken Willard, was there ever a year in which he was one of the best players in pro football? Was Willard ever the best in the league at his position? Was he a key contributor to a Super Bowl winner? No on all counts.

Floyd Little did meet one criteria. He led the league in rushing for 1971 and for one season could be considered the best running back in pro football.

Ken Willard was never a key man on a championship team as contemporary Larry Csonka was in 1972-73? Willard has no claim for the HOF.

 

[white is right]

Yes, cronyism exists, or maybe it's a popularity contest.

Again, regarding Ken Willard, was there ever a year in which he was one of the best players in pro football? Was Willard ever the best in the league at his position? Was he a key contributor to a Super Bowl winner? No on all counts.

Floyd Little did meet one criteria. He led the league in rushing for 1971 and for one season could be considered the best running back in pro football.

Ken Willard was never a key man on a championship team as contemporary Larry Csonka was in 1972-73? Willard has no claim for the HOF.

My last point on Willard he did lead the 49'ers to an NFC title game in 71'(admittedly he was a non factor in the game) . He also had a signature season in 68' where he was 2nd in rushing yards in the old NFL and 3rd in total yards from scrimmage, that to me is a hall of fame caliber season. I know Little like Archie Manning played on horrible teams that writers feel stunted his stats, so that has boosted his reputation. Ps in that story on Willard John Brodie was mentioned as 3rd all time in passing yards at the time of his retirement. In hockey, basketball or baseball those stats would be a lock for the hall.

 

[Kaptain]

Paul Krause was voted into the HOF in 1998. If you are going to opine on who should be in the HOF, it would be nice if you knew who all was in it.

Well I can't believe I made that mistake. I believe it was the 100 greatest list that he did not make that I was thinking of. That was the thread I believe were a poster who never makes a mistake claimed with no evidence that Krause couldn't tackle and was gifted the record interception despite video evidence and statistical evidence to the contrary. Who was that guy? There goes my memory again.

 

[sport historian]

Well I can't believe I made that mistake. I believe it was the 100 greatest list that he did not make that I was thinking of. That was the thread I believe were a poster who never makes a mistake claimed with no evidence that Krause couldn't tackle and was gifted the record interception despite video evidence and statistical evidence to the contrary. Who was that guy? There goes my memory again.

This topic (which I started) is the HOF, not the Top 100 list. Watch the "A Football Life" episode on Walter Payton for an example of Krause waving at Payton who goes by for a big gain. On the Top 100 thread (another I started) I wrote that Krause's breaking the interception record was completely legitimate.

 

[Kaptain]

This topic (which I started) is the HOF, not the Top 100 list. Watch the "A Football Life" episode on Walter Payton for an example of Krause waving at Payton who goes by for a big gain. On the Top 100 thread (another I started) I wrote that Krause's breaking the interception record was completely legitimate.

Dah, didn't I already say I made a mistake. It's so cool of you to take that opportunity to make snarky remarks. But here you go again with your objectivity screwed like a DWF. Go ahead and post where Krause waved at Walter Payton. The year was 1977 and Krause, who was 35 years old, and the entire Viking team lost a foot race with Walter Payton. God forbid an old white player get outrun by a young HOF runningback. You must be waiting for Peyton Hillis to fumble and Wes Welker to drop a pass so that you make your DWF comments on their entire career. Good grief just look at the slant you take on this thread of nearly every single player discussed. Curly Culp outplayed Mick Tinklehoff in the superbowl in your "unbiased" opinion so it makes perfect sense that Curly is in the HOF and Tinklehoff is not? I suppose you were at the game on the 50 yard line? How exactly does Kevin Greene "fall short" and in which category? Did he miss a tackle sometime? How does he compare to recent HOFer Chris Doleman?

 

[sport historian]

Dah, didn't I already say I made a mistake. It's so cool of you to take that opportunity to make snarky remarks. But here you go again with your objectivity screwed like a DWF. Go ahead and post where Krause waved at Walter Payton. The year was 1977 and Krause, who was 35 years old, and the entire Viking team lost a foot race with Walter Payton. Good forbid an old white player get outrun by a young HOF runningback. You must be waiting for Peyton Hillis to fumble and Wes Welker to drop a pass so that you make your DWF comments on their entire career. Good grief just look at the slant you take on this thread of nearly every single player discussed. Curly Culp outplayed Mick Tinklehoff in the superbowl in your "unbiased" opinion so it makes perfect sense that Curly is the HOF and Tinklehoff is not? I suppose you were at the game on the 50 yard line? How exactly does Kevin Greene "fall short" and in which category? Did he miss a tackle sometime? How does he compare to recent HOFer Chris Doleman?

Curly Culp is not yet in the HOF. He was nominated by the Seniors Committee and will be on the ballot in January. Maybe he'll make it then, maybe not.

 

[white is right]

If any Black player from this era needs lobbying to get in the hall its Jim Marshall who had the iron man record until Farve and still has it for a non qb. Marshall was a disruptive force that should be a hall member. It's not like he was the only Viking that performed like a dud in their 4 appearances in the 70's, the whole team did.......

 

[white is right]

Well I can't believe I made that mistake. I believe it was the 100 greatest list that he did not make that I was thinking of. That was the thread I believe were a poster who never makes a mistake claimed with no evidence that Krause couldn't tackle and was gifted the record interception despite video evidence and statistical evidence to the contrary. Who was that guy? There goes my memory again.

Krause was always viewed as ball hawk more than a tackler. The other great safety of his era Larry Wilson was always viewed as the better safety, eventhough on paper Krause was the faster better athlete. I think Wilson was viewed as "slow" even by late 60's through 70's players standards.

 

[bigunreal]

According to SH, Charlie Sanders belongs in the HOF, but Jerry Smith does not. I urge all members here to check their relative stats and see if you can figure out how any Caste Football regular could believe that.

SH has defended every black discussed on these threads who is in the HOF. In fact, the most notable inductee he didn't like was Paul Krause.

Exactly how does this prolific contributor to Caste Football support white players?

 

[sport historian]

According to SH, Charlie Sanders belongs in the HOF, but Jerry Smith does not. I urge all members here to check their relative stats and see if you can figure out how any Caste Football regular could believe that.

SH has defended every black discussed on these threads who is in the HOF. In fact, the most notable inductee he didn't like was Paul Krause.

Exactly how does this prolific contributor to Caste Football support white players?

I started the topic concerning Jerry Kramer, whom I think belongs in the HOF.