Happy birthday, Robert Heinlein

[screamingeagle]

July 7, 2007 is the 100th birthday of Robert A. Heinlein. Heinlien wrote some of the best science fiction novels ever. Off the top of my head, starship troopers, Stranger in a Strange Land, Door Into Summer, Have Spacesuit will travel, Time enough for Love, the Moon is a harsh mistress, Glory Road, ect.
RAH wrote so many good books it is hard to say which one is his best. My favorite is Tunnel in the Sky. This is where an school class is marooned on a planet. Instead of turning into Lord of the Flies type savages. They just create a new society. I read this a s a teenager and it was a welcom antidote to other novels that showed teenagers as wild and uncontrollable. It gave me hope. So do yourself a favor and read a Heinlein book today.
Favorite quotes: "A armed society must be a polite society"
"Some poeple think better when they breathe vaccumn"
(When someone says that war doen't solve anything) "Tell that to the founding fathers of Carthage!"
and "grok, to fulfillness, water brother."

 

[Charlie]

'Farnham's Freehold' (1964), a group of whites and one black are transported far into the future due to a nuclear explosion.The world is now ruled by dark-skinned blacks and mestizos, who dominate light-skinned Asians and whites. The Southern Hemisphere risen, justified in their hatred of 'lights' because of nuclear destruction long ago.

The lone black in the group becomes a lord while the whites are reduced to slave status. One of the whites is castrated and turned into a placid and content house slave (if I remember correctly his primary duty was to be buggered).

The novel's point being blacks will behave as badly as whites when given the chance to rule. Or, blacks will behave worse than whites when given the chance, one example being the black rulers taste for human flesh. Or, masters tend to treat their subjects poorly regardless of race. Or, whites had better watch out, lest their own evil racism is cast back at them.

Heinlein was anti-racist in the modern sense of whites not being allowed to note racial differences or to promote racial advantage. A strong contributor to the Cultural Marxism recently described in J.B. Cash's essay. Book after book challenges the reader's racist views. The protagonist often is non-white, the nastiest trick being when the lead character of 'Troopers' is revealed at the last to be Filipino. In other novels aliens are stand-ins for racial minorities, and the reader is given allegorical lessons in how to treat creatures of color.

P.K. Dick's 'The Man in the High Castle' may be a better choice than one of Heinlein's turgid works.

 

[Menelik]

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

 

[Charlie]

It entirely depends on what society is being discussed. There are cases of heavily armed populations noted for their lack of civility and manners. Conversely there are virtually unarmed societies where politeness is the norm.

Heinlein was of the opinion guns would provide a cure, not dissimilar to the notion guns were the disease. Guns are neither, rather it is the culture, and culture derives from genetics (if E.O. Wilson and others are to be given credence).

If we are to follow the 'guns = civility' prescription to its logical conclusion we arrive at 'guns for everyone'.Guns for the imbecile. Guns for felons. Guns for Indians. Guns for African-Americans.

 

[Freedom]

I think Heinlein is not only one of the greatest writers in recent decades, but one of the best ever. He isn't a great writer for his views. He is great for exploring virtue and values in societies and characters and trying to find purpose in his work. Most authors today just write "page turners" to sell a lot of books.

 

[Menelik]

It entirely depends on what society is being discussed. There are cases of heavily armed populations noted for their lack of civility and manners. Conversely there are virtually unarmed societies where politeness is the norm.

I was just quoting Robert. But since you brought it up can you name some of those societies that you mentioned? Edited by: Menelik

 

[jaxvid]

As Charlie has pointed out Heinlein is a big fat spokesman for Cultural marxism. He was always trying to find a way to sell that crap using science fiction. I never liked him even though I liked sci-fi.

When I was a kid I read a book, (I'm pretty sure it was by him) where he wrote that they had found out that black people made the best doctors in zero gravity, they didn't know why but that just was the way it was. I thought about that. What the heck would zero gravity have to do with it? Then I realized he was just trying to convince us that blacks had some special skill that would prove valuable in some way. We're still looking!

I tossed that book aside and on the rare occasion when I come across one of this books I find them unreadable. But I know lots of people that like him, especially libertarians so maybe there's something there, I just don't see it.

 

[Menelik]

As Charlie has pointed out Heinlein is a big fat spokesman for Cultural marxism.

Thats an interesting description. When he wrote Starship Troopers some critics said that he was trying to espouse national socialism. I guess that you can't please everyone.

Edited by: Menelik

 

[jaxvid]

Thats an interesting description. When he wrote Starship Troopers some critics said that he was trying to espouse national socialism. I guess that you can't please everyone.

Perhaps he strayed from the script with that one and the ministers of propaganda were just reminding him of his place as one of the privaleged few to have permission for his books to get printed.

 

[Charlie]

Who has (relatively speaking) no guns yet is polite (defined as a low homicide rate)?

Japan 0.6 per 100,000 population

Who has lots of guns and is most impolite?

African-Americans 23.0

Brazil is around 65. But who is doing the killing in Brazil? Or in South Africa with its similar rate? Safe to say not the Brazilian Germans or the SA Boers?

Stats are from 1995, but probably remain relevant. There is also the issue of how homicide is defined.

I think there is the good chance certain racial groups who, when given the freedom to own guns (and by implication other freedoms as well), become more violent. Do Mexicans in the U.S. commit more or fewer murders than their counterparts in Mexico? And how does one calculate the rates for different racial groups in Mexico since the Mexican government doesn't officially do so?

I don't know if Heinlein can be considered a science-fiction writer. Where's the science? Especially for someone who is considered a 'hard' sci-fi writer. Not quite Greg Bear, is he?

And without the science where is the point of sci-fi - the question of what it is to be human, and what is real, and what can be made real, in relation to scientific advancement? For Heinlein it's all about the fantasy of perfect morality and perfect equality. Preacher Man schooling his readers.

A disturbing aspect of Heinlein is he often has really old (but still 'peppy') guys getting together with really young girls. Sci-fi has a kind of conservative thing going with sexual perversion in that it isn't well thought of. When Gibson describes 'meat puppets' you're just as creeped out by it as he is. Libertarianism, on the other hand, is always just one rationalism away from supporting NAMBLA.

Heinlein, in the corner over there with his gun and his twelve year old 'wife' and his competent and cool black friends, offers this wisdom, 'Specialization is for bugs.'

Well, I agree. I certainly don't want doctors to specialize in medicine, or to even further specialize in things like oncology or nuero opthamology. Let's all just be well-rounded.

 

[Menelik]

Who has (relatively speaking) no guns yet is polite (defined as a low homicide rate)?

Japan 0.6 per 100,000 population

Who has lots of guns and is most impolite?

African-Americans 23.0

You left out Switzerland which is heavily armed and has about 1 death per 100,000 people. What nation is African-American?

All the more reason to exercise your 2nd amendment rights imho.

 

[Charlie]

Something is being left out. If I have a gun and you don't, then my morality will be the norm.

If you have a gun and I don't, then your morality prevails.

If we both have a gun, and disagree as to what constitutes morality, then having a gun is no advantage unless it is used.

'But couldn't the two moralities simply coexist?' Well, as you pointed out, there isn't an African-American nation. All must live under the same rules derived from the same morality. Currently a form of riot insurance mandates AA morality prevails because blacks are quick to use their guns.

Aggravated rape is no longer a capital offense. Who does that benefit?

Many are paid for existing. Once again...

Since 1965 suspects are no longer beaten while in police custody.

All suspects are allowed legal representation.

Integration is mandated. All businesses are viewed as public conveyances and as engaged in interstate commerce.

All persons of legal age and of non-felon status are allowed to vote.

Saying you have a gun is akin to saying you have a vote. Both have little value in a democracy where everyone else, of any moral hue, is entitled to that same gun and that same vote. There is a reason why communists were fond of democracy.

 

[Menelik]

Something is being left out. If I have a gun and you don't, then my morality will be the norm.

If you have a gun and I don't, then your morality prevails.

If we both have a gun, and disagree as to what constitutes morality, then having a gun is no advantage unless it is used.

'But couldn't the two moralities simply coexist?' Well, as you pointed out, there isn't an African-American nation. All must live under the same rules derived from the same morality. Currently a form of riot insurance mandates AA morality prevails because blacks are quick to use their guns.

Aggravated rape is no longer a capital offense. Who does that benefit?

Many are paid for existing. Once again...

Since 1965 suspects are no longer beaten while in police custody.

All suspects are allowed legal representation.

Integration is mandated. All businesses are viewed as public conveyances and as engaged in interstate commerce.

All persons of legal age and of non-felon status are allowed to vote.

Saying you have a gun is akin to saying you have a vote. Both have little value in a democracy where everyone else, of any moral hue, is entitled to that same gun and that same vote. There is a reason why communists were fond of democracy.

Deep thoughts but I think what Heinlein was trying to say was that people would be on their best behavior if they knew that their words had immediate consequences. Not to nit-pick or argue but we live in a republic not a democracy. What type of government would you prefer and have you ever lived in any other country than the U.S.? I had the fortune, or misfortune, of living abroad for 12 years. Dorothy was right when she said there is no place like home!

 

[Freedom]

I have actually encountered many Brazilians who are 100% European descent by appearance, give a little possible Moorish blood from way back. Many look indistinguishable from Azorean Portuguese and some look lighter. There are probably a few illegals of Nordic stock. But about a third are non-white. Many are assimilating and getting visas. Others are just here for "Da Monee!" But the Brazilian Germans here are pretty much like the darker Brazilians and they see themselves as "Brazilian" rather than "German."Edited by: Freedom

 

[Tired old White]

I do not remeber the name of the novel it was in but the I believe the qoute you are are talking about also involved a dueling culture, where rudness could invoke a challenge to a formal duel where you faced an opponet equally armed and ready to fight. Not some one who planned to shoot you in the back or shoot you if you were unarmed. Constitutes a major difference. Heinlein was a a talented writer of novels. This does not mean you have to take his ideas as truth.

 

[screamingeagle]

I do not remeber the name of the novel it was in but the I believe the qoute you are are talking about also involved a dueling culture, where rudness could invoke a challenge to a formal duel where you faced an opponet equally armed and ready to fight. Not some one who planned to shoot you in the back or shoot you if you were unarmed. Constitutes a major difference. Heinlein was a a talented writer of novels. This does not mean you have to take his ideas as truth.

The book was Beyond this Horizon

 

[screamingeagle]

To Charlie:
I'm glad you mentioned PK Dick. During the 70's, I needed a break from RAH, and Dick was the perfect antidote.
PKD always had original plots that were developed well. His stories were always well paced and had a surprise ending. This is also why so many of his stories have become movies.
RAH's characters were always ultra intelligent who are superlative in every skill. Dick's characters are average joes who are caught in strange situations.
The only problem with Dick's books is that, like murder mysteries, once you know the ending you never want to reread them again. In the last couple of years, I have been rereading some of RAH's books. Last year I reread Beyond this Horizon> This year, I started on Starship Troopers. I am enjoying them more the second time around. I should reread Farnham's Freehold. I haven't read it in 35 years.
Next time I will talk about the pros and cons of RAH>

 

[Charlie]

Countries other than the wondrous USA? Most recently in the lands of the Draka and the Neo-Victorians (aka New Atlantians). Both quite demanding in their own way.

Vickies have a monarchy and an equity lord system. The idea being a vested interest among decision makers heightens their sense of duty.

Draka have a feudal society similar to the Junker system of old.

No one has the right to 'vote', but no one seems to mind, or has the poor sense to complain about it.

 

[Menelik]

Countries other than the wondrous USA? Most recently in the lands of the Draka and the Neo-Victorians (aka New Atlantians). Both quite demanding in their own way.

Marching thru Georgia heh?

 

[White_Savage]

Is any author not a mix of good and bad, truth and bullsh*t?

However, the irony is that the Libertarian ethos of Heinlein...and that's what it is, no matter how he hated the term, is totally uninteresting to the overwhelming majority of whatever brown race a Libertarian may make ovetures towards.

If someday in humanity's travel's we meet six-foot tall bugmen with purple exoskeletons whose conception of civillization and the good life is identical to mine, then I will surely join hands (claws?) and sing kuhn-by-yah with them. It still won't mean that the average negroidal is fit for what I consider decent and free Western society. If the purple bugmen have advanced far enough for space travel and survived at all, they themselves will probably have realized that the chartreuse bugmen from the other continent cannot be introduced en masse into their society without grim consequences.Edited by: White_Savage

 

[Tired old White]

Savage,

Or perhaps the dire consequences require them to develope space travel to find a new home and make a fresh start without the 'strength of diversity"