Greatest Game Ever Played Documentary.

[ToughJ.Riggins]

I watched this ESPN Documentary about the greatest game ever played on the 1958 Colts-Giants overtime championship game. A few things I noticed. They had current Giants and Colts players and personnel talking with the players and media people from that game. Steve Smith of the Giants made a comment about Raymond Berry "How well did he run; he wasn't all too fast was he?" The old time player next to him said "well he didn't have great speed, but he ran great patterns and had amazing hands."

Berry really used his game smarts and had almost a supernatural connection with Johnny Unitas. They knew exactly how to click with each other. Berry is an example of how a receiver can be dominant without being faster than most of the CBs guarding him. There are many types of ways to be great.

I also noticed that Frank Gifford was a natural athlete and had good moves. These guys didn't have the weight training of today, but they were the best of their day. What was Gifford's 40 time back then 4.6/4.65? That's still faster than a small portion of NFL RBs from today.

There was also commentary from Pat Summerall the Giants kicker, Frank Gifford, Lenny Moore and Raymond Berry and others about playing for the love of the game. One guy said if you made $10,000 or $11,000 back then playing we thought we were rich. Many of the guys from back then before this game worked a second job. Pat Summerall I believe they said was a school teacher. This was the only championship game to go to overtime ever. The game really got America excited about football.

Antonio Pierce asked "did you ever think of partying before the big game?" The old timer next to him laughed and said "oh no, because of what would happen if we got caught!"

Black tailback Lenny Moore was part of a duel threat backfield with Alan Ameche for the Colts and threw a phenomenal block for Ameche on the winning TD even though he was the HB and Ameche was the FB. Lenny Moore was a good black tailback from back then when white men were also allowed to carry the ball as well as blacks. Lenny had no problem being part of the team like guys like Terrell Owens have today.

It helped make the offenses confusing to have both the HB and FB run with the other blocking for each other. There was a comment about how "you can't build a championship team without friends." Try asking Terrell Owens about this, guys weren't counting the balls thrown to them back then. If Lenny hadn't gotten hurt maybe it would have been him getting the winning TD. Lenny had hurt his upper body during the game and was only used as a receiver after the injury. He was a decoy as a runner.

These guys truly played for the love of the game. One of the old timers said I helped make you rich. The old timers and current guys did seem to respect each other. Another guy from the 1958 game asked are you guys embarrassed about getting the money you get today for this?

I was also thinking about todays decline of morals and it is truly ashame. Vince Lombardi who was an assistant with the Giants back then gave speeches late in his life on the decline of morals.

The famous picture from that game was taken by a 16 year old who had helped wheel military veterans down behind the end-zone at field level for the game. He got a great photo of Ameche running in for the winning TD. This was a time when fans could actually rush the field after the championship was over and they did after the Colts win. A fan actually carried Ameche around the field after the victory. They didn't have to worry about violence from the fans back then. There were no crazies in the stands with knives. It truly was a time that I wished I could have lived in.

I would say not long after this probably about 10 years later in about 1968 was the correct representation of what the NFL should look like minus the fact that black QBs were discriminated against. It's too bad that the NFL is full of primodonnas like Terrell Owens now and the media coverage helps cover up the that there is indeed a caste system. I wonder what Vince Lombardi would say if he was interviewed about the state of the NFL today? Sad indeed.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[sport historian]

I was 8 years old in 1958, and saw the game on TV. I especially recall the game-tying FG, and the announcers saying that "we are going into Sudden-Death overtime." My other vivid memory is of Alan Ameche's winning TD.

There were several thousand Colt fans in Yankee Stadium that day. They are the ones rushing the field and carrying Alan Ameche off on their shoulders. Not all tickets were sold in those days, and I believe Colt owner Carroll Rosenbloom bought a block of them.

As Lenny Moore said, the players though they were making a lot of money at the time. They knew they could not make that kind of money outside of football, and appreciated the fact. Most had an off-season job as they had wives and children to support.

Frank Gifford was what used to be called a "Triple-Threat." He had been a single-wing TB at USC, and Giant offensive coach Vince Lombardi had Gifford throw the halfback option pass. I don't know what Gifford's 40 time was, but he was not considered a speed-burner. I have read that Alex Webster would not have broken 5 flat in the 40. Giant FB Mel Triplett had average speed. The closest counterpart to Gifford among fairly recent players would be Marcus Allen.

The Colts had Lenny Moore on the flank on some plays, lined up in the backfield on others with Ameche and L.G. Dupre. He was equally dangerous at either spot. The Giants also sometimes lined up in a straight T with Gifford, Webster, and Triplett.

Raymond Berry was "slow" by 1958 standards, but he ran great patterns and caught the ball.

 

[bigunreal]

I also watched "The Greatest Game Ever Played,", and was astounded that ESPN could produce something this good. How refreshing to see something on that channel without Michael Irvin or Keyshawn Johnson shouting and laughing hysterically.

For many years, Raymond Berry was considered the greatest receiver of all time. Now, he isn't even mentioned. Only Jerry Smith had hands close to his, and no one could stretch his body to get a ball better than him. Unfortunately, like so many great white players from that era, he became a Caste disciple as a coach. Although he did start Craig James (the last white RB to go over 1000 yards), his defense featured 10 black starters. In fact, watching the Patriots defense being introduced at the Super Bowl that year was my eye-opener to the Caste System. From that moment on, I started counting the white defensive starters on each team.

It was strange that neither Peyton or Eli Manning participated in the program; that would seem like a natural choice. While many of the players from that game are no longer with us, it would have been nice to see some more survivors from that game; Sam Huff, for instance, is still active as a (admittedly awful) color commentator for the Redskins. I'm sure there are others. It's a shame that Kyle Rote is no longer alive; he was a big star back in the day. It's very sad that Johnny Unitas wasn't around to see this tribute; it would have been great to see him and the Mannings conversing about the game.

I wonder if any of the drunk white fans watching caught the racial implications of all those modern black players (and black coach), contrasted with all the old white players (although two of the old players they selected-Rosey Grier and Lenny Moore-were black). Do any of them wonder where all the white players have gone? One other observation; while Artie Donovan was hilarious as always, his comments are often absurd and never too anti-Caste. For instance, he told Michael Strahan something like, "I don't what you guys are saying nowadays. You use all them big words I never heard before." Yeah, that's right, Artie- Jamarcus Russell, Plaxico Burress, etc., are just too intelligent for old white guys like you to comprehend. Although, come to think about it, maybe he was speaking in code about the made up expressions so many black players use to fracture the english language.

But all in all, I can't complain much about this program. Even Chris Berman wasn't too obnoxious. "The Greatest Game Ever Played" was a reminder of just how entertaining television can be. Everyone here should enjoy this loving look at the NFL, the way it was in the days before the Caste System.

 

[speedster]

The more time that goes by the slower every white back becomes in the eyes of many.Gifford was fast so was Webster.The first time Alan Ameche touched the ball in the NFL he went 79 yards.The Redskins claimed their big guy Don Bosseler was faster than Ameche.Maybe by today's standards these guys wouldn't match-up as well,but they did have some wheels.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

They didn't have the weight training and nutritional methods of today and some worked a second job; that's the main reason white and black players from that era were a little slower. I noticed I called Alan Ameche John Amechi by accident. Sorry for that, that was a big error. John Amechi was a former NBA player who recently came out as gay.

 

[celticdb15]

Lol Tough J Alan Amechi is frommy hometown of Kenosha Wisconsin!He was a stud and is probably our towns most famous sports hero(besides Nick Van Exel who is ungrateful to our community especially seeing how he was rescued from the hood and got to attend a st joes a catholic school). Anyways its sad to see Kenosha's old italian neighborhood still dotted with italian bakeries and deli's. Not to mention the Italian American Club, is now filled with Mexicans and Blacks.

Also our stadium is named Ameche Field in honor of him and is one of the better playing surafaces in the state!

 

[Electric Slide]

Great comments. I thought this was a good show, other than the fact that the film was played in cinematic slow speed!!! Whenever they show old clips they tend to do this, which is why I believe many think the old players were so slow. To be fair, they were not as fast as their potential was since they didn't do speed training, plyometrics, and much weight and circuit training, which from my experience gives you a HUGE advantage.

Also, did anyone else notice how terrible of condition the field at Yankee Stadium was? It looked like half the field was patches of dirt. Either way, conditions like that certainly are not very favorable to fast running and changing directions.

 

[dwid]

Great comments. I thought this was a good show, other than the fact that the film was played in cinematic slow speed!!! Whenever they show old clips they tend to do this, which is why I believe many think the old players were so slow. To be fair, they were not as fast as their potential was since they didn't do speed training, plyometrics, and much weight and circuit training, which from my experience gives you a HUGE advantage.

Also, did anyone else notice how terrible of condition the field at Yankee Stadium was? It looked like half the field was patches of dirt. Either way, conditions like that certainly are not very favorable to fast running and changing directions.

and i would think the equipment they wore was a bit heavier back then than it is now? am i right? i know shoulder pads are alot smaller, im sure everything is more lightweight and more effective than it was back then

 

[sport historian]

Great comments. I thought this was a good show, other than the fact that the film was played in cinematic slow speed!!! Whenever they show old clips they tend to do this, which is why I believe many think the old players were so slow. To be fair, they were not as fast as their potential was since they didn't do speed training, plyometrics, and much weight and circuit training, which from my experience gives you a HUGE advantage.

Also, did anyone else notice how terrible of condition the field at Yankee Stadium was? It looked like half the field was patches of dirt. Either way, conditions like that certainly are not very favorable to fast running and changing directions.

The Giants had won a playoff game on a frozen field against the Browns in addition to the regular season. The New York Yankees baseball had played their season and World Series. The field was frozen in spots as well as being more beat up than usual.

One of the things I don't like about NFL Films is the unending slow motion they insist on using.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Great comments. I thought this was a good show, other than the fact that the film was played in cinematic slow speed!!! Whenever they show old clips they tend to do this, which is why I believe many think the old players were so slow. To be fair, they were not as fast as their potential was since they didn't do speed training, plyometrics, and much weight and circuit training, which from my experience gives you a HUGE advantage.

Also, did anyone else notice how terrible of condition the field at Yankee Stadium was? It looked like half the field was patches of dirt. Either way, conditions like that certainly are not very favorable to fast running and changing directions.

and i would think the equipment they wore was a bit heavier back then than it is now? am i right? i know shoulder pads are alot smaller, im sure everything is more lightweight and more effective than it was back then

As far as the equipment goes, I doubt it was any heavier. Suspension helmets in 1958 were light as a feather compared to modern padded helmets. Everything else weighed pretty much the same as it is now. Pads were smaller then, but weighed about the same. The equipment was a little different, but I would think the overall weight of the equipment would have been a little less in 1958 than now.

 

[dwid]

ah, for some reason it seems like shoulder pads were bigger in the past making it look slightly awkward, so shoulder pads were actually smaller? or just the other pads they had to wear?Edited by: dwid

 

[Electric Slide]

As far as the equipment goes, I doubt it was any heavier. Suspension helmets in 1958 were light as a feather compared to modern padded helmets. Everything else weighed pretty much the same as it is now. Pads were smaller then, but weighed about the same. The equipment was a little different, but I would think the overall weight of the equipment would have been a little less in 1958 than now.

That does make sense they used a little less equipment, but the stuff now is a lot better fitting and more firm in place when moving. Back then, if i'm not mistaken, the cloth was all cotton. Now for the most part it's a blend of nylon and lycra. I can tell you that even in the last 10 years the material blends for sports apparrel have gotten a lot better and more comfortable.

You also have to look at things like cleats, which are more comfortable, better fitting, and come in more sizes and shapes to accomidate different arches, foot width, etc. I imagine after the games in the old days that their feet had to be incredibly sore! Even the socks are much better.

Now, you can look at all of that and know it doesn't account for actual game strategy, it still does make a slight difference in every single play. Not having to worry about things digging into you or hanging akwardly puts your mind at ease, in addition to the physical advantage of better materials and equipment.

 

[Don Wassall]

For many years, Raymond Berry was considered the greatest receiver of all time. Now, he isn't even mentioned. Only Jerry Smith had hands close to his, and no one could stretch his body to get a ball better than him. Unfortunately, like so many great white players from that era, he became a Caste disciple as a coach. Although he did start Craig James (the last white RB to go over 1000 yards), his defense featured 10 black starters. In fact, watching the Patriots defense being introduced at the Super Bowl that year was my eye-opener to the Caste System. From that moment on, I started counting the white defensive starters on each team.

I remember that too. During the '80s the Patriots were the blackest team in the league. I started head counting in the early '80s. Once you start it's habit forming, for better or worse.

The slower motion clips of the older, much whiter NFL is indeed a propaganda tactic. What's also done today is to speed up clips of black players. Chris Berman likes to do it to extremes for comic effect on his highlight show, but I notice often that a given highlight is sped up by 20 percent or so by the media when the focus is on a run or run after a catch by a black.


As for Frank Gifford, he was known in his day as a graceful and multi-talented athlete. But he was a Caste hound all the way during his broadcasting days, most notably on Monday Night Football. One quote I'll always remember from him was to the effect of how marvelous and wonderful black athletes are and so much fun to watch and admire.

 

[GiovaniMarcon]

I think a lot of these programs are presented with an air of smug condescension.

It's not like when you watch a documentary about World War 2 fighter planes and think "wow, what a classic the Fw-190 was."

We all know that the fighter planes from WW2 were good for their time but obviously couldn't compete with modern era fighter planes.

But we still admire them.

It's different when one looks at old football players, because they play the same game with basically the same rules.

These programs seem to be presenting a picture of -- look at how hokie the game was back then -- we play the same game now, but the players are better.

Bottom line -- they want to present the image that the NFL is better because it's not "white" anymore.

 

[sport historian]

As I wrote in the Sammy Baugh thread, I was in a Borders store today. I purchased "The Glory Game," by Frank Gifford. It is another book on the 1958 Title game. I've just read a few pages, but it looks like a good read. There is another NY Giant book out by Jack Cavanaugh that I haven't seen yet.

One thing never changes. The New York teams have a lot of books written about them.

 

[GiovaniMarcon]

I had a look-see at the big NFL-licensed book about the NY Giants' 2008 championship. I was interested to look at the 1990 panoramic team photo included in the book (by the way -- 20 white players, 33 black) but was wondering why there was no 2008 team photo.Edited by: GiovaniMarcon

 

[Maple Leaf]

I think a lot of these programs are presented with an air of smug condescension.

It's not like when you watch a documentary about World War 2 fighter planes and think "wow, what a classic the Fw-190 was."

We all know that the fighter planes from WW2 were good for their time but obviously couldn't compete with modern era fighter planes.

But we still admire them.

It's different when one looks at old football players, because they play the same game with basically the same rules.

These programs seem to be presenting a picture of -- look at how hokie the game was back then -- we play the same game now, but the players are better.

Bottom line -- they want to present the image that the NFL is better because it's not "white" anymore.

This is the bull's-eye comment on this thread.