Decline of complete player

[Bart]

What do you think of Bill James? He is a number cruncher extraordinaire. He's written books ranking baseball players using a zillion stats. For example, in judging a home run hitter's year he will compare his stats with the leagues average and so on. He has come up with something called a -win share- which weighs variables in assesing how much a player contributes to a teams success. He has determined Mickey Mantle to be up near the top of the list based on his production per at bat. Aaron's slugging avg. was .555, May's and Mickey's were .557. Aaron's obp. .374, May's was .384 and Mickey's was a staggering .421.


What would those players have accomplished with a truck load of growth hormones, testosterone, primobolin , decca and who knows what else? The steroids help recovery but also help the muscles contract harder quicker. Obviously the bat movesfasterallowing you to wait longer and hit the ball harder and farther.Not to mention the increased muscle mass which changed shortstops to sluggers.


How far would Mantle hit the ball if he was a client of Balco? It would be scary! His body would have healed quicker and he would have run even faster.

 

[jaxvid]

I'm a BIG fan of Bill James. I think his win-share method fairly ranks all players from all eras on any quality of team objectively. He is also a good writer. His baseball abstract sits on my desk next to me.

My only slight beef with him is his fondness for Negro league players who cannot be really be rated because of the poor stats that were kept for them, so James makes up their ratings. Also because Barry Bonds has managed to put up such good steroid induced numbers he is ranked near as one of the greatest ever. And just using the pure numbers that is correct. However if James can include stat-less Negro league players he can also omit stat-inflated steroid guys.

 

[jaxvid]

Concerning Mickey Mantle. I think it is time for this site to clear the air concerning Mickey Mantle. The current "craze" to destroy everything decent in past American white history includes Mantle. A very good case can be made for Mantle as the greatest player of all-time. For two reasons apart from the awesome stats he put up.

One the Yankee dynasty was ridiculously successful during his career. They won nearly EVERY year and usually stomped the NL in the World Series. Mantle was the driving force on those teams. For those of you who have played baseball you know how important the No. 1 hitter is on a team. It is not just the numbers he puts up but when he does things. A clutch hit, a big throw, those kinds of things inspire a team when they come from the BIG guy in the line-up. Mantle was this and more. Plus his personality became the personality of the Yankees, the best dynasty ever.

Two. Mantle carried the burden of being the best. It is one thing for Bonds to put up great numbers with losing teams but he is really a non-factor to most fans. Who cares! He is a surly, mean, jerk. We, the fans, could care less. Mantle carried the "mantle" of greatest all his carreer, and was absolutly idolized by millions of kids. Only Ruth and Jordan performed as well under similar pressure.

The attempt to revise history by making Mantle some kind of staggering drunk is a joke. Sure he drank, so what! It was good for him. It enabled him to deal with being a living legend without going crazy. Lots of guys like to drink. Time spent with drinking buddies is enriching and makes for a better life then sitting in a lonely hotel room doing meditation or tai-chai. I will go out on a limb and say that Mantle's drinking made him a better ballplayer. Sober he would have been depressed and ordinary.

As for his injuries, yes steroids would have helped, but even more just basic modern sports medicine such as the ability to rebuild torn knee cartiledge and rehab injuries. Imagine Mantle with two good knees his whole life!

Finally it is depressing that Mantle was effected by the revision of his life. He was clearly wracked with guilt at the end of his life and he shouldn't have been. That guilt was placed upon him by modern society which wanted to destroy THE NUMBER ONE WHITE SPORTS ICON of the pre-caste system era. I'm sure his depression hastened his death.

Mantle was the greatest baseball star at a time when baseball was THE American sport. He was the greatest ever, certainly for us here at a site that celebrates the great white athlete.

 

[Bart]

Very good analysis Jaxvid. Later in Mantle's life when asked about his ranking with other players , he always denigrated his own status especially regarding blacks. I have witnessed this uniquely -white- behavior all mylife. Prasing them to the highest does not mean they will in turn respect and praise us. In fact if you ask the average blackwho the best players are in any sport you will learn something.. Their top 100 lists are black from top to bottom. Larry Bird may hve been the best white basketballer but on theirlist he'sprobablyranked #465 if lucky.


And why the heck include the Negro League players with the National and American League statistics? It's like comparing apples with oranges.Some want to make Sadaharu Oh the best home run hitter because of his stats in Japan. How crazy is this?Washed up over the hill players go to Japan and hit homers like Babe Ruth for cryin out loud!!


Some people even rank Bob Gibson as possibly the best pitcher in modern times. Are they nuts? He was good no doubt but why rank him higher than he deserves? Every time Tim McCarver compares great pitchers he brings up Gibson. Since he caught him, I guess that makes Tim look good too.


Could Gibson be better than Clemens or even Whitey Ford? Compare some stats. By the way, Gibson plunked many more batters than Clemens.


Gibson: Wins - 251 Losses - 174 Era 2.91 Winning Percentage - .591


Ford: Wins- 236 Losses - 106 Era 2.75 Winning Percentage - .690


Clemens: Wins - 328 Losses - 164 Era 3.18Winning Percentage - .667 The higher ERA is due to the explosin of runs in baseball overall.


Whitey didn't walk many and didn't give up homers. He was not a strike out king however. Made em hit grounders for double plays.Edited by: Bart

 

[Don Wassall]

Bart, You're right that Gibson is way over-rated. His reputation has been based in large part on his amazingly low ERA for the '68 season, the year pitching dominated hitting more than any other in baseball history. He is not ranked among the leaders in any lifetime category, and his 251career wins brings to mind Jack Morris more than it does the greatest pitchers of the sport.


Jaxvid, thanks for setting the record straight about my hero Mickey Mantle! It really is pathetic the way the corporate media jumped all over him for being a drinker near the end of his life. It's another example of applying standards of conduct in retrospect. It's like condemning people who smoked cigarettes in the '50s now. Mantle lived the way men of his time were expected to live, and you're probably right that part of his motivation was to escape the pressures that went with being the star player of the Yankees. He lived the life of an angel compared to many of the "gangsta" type athletes adored by the system.


Another angle used to attackMickey was that he was supposedly a poor father. Whether true or not that is completely out of bounds, especially in an era when we have "fathers" like Calvin Murphy (14 children to 9 different women; accused of sexually molesting some of them), and countless other black athleteswho mate randomly and with no accountability. Mickey stayed married to the same woman all his life and helped raise several children. I wonder how well many of the media writers who have attacked him would stack up as fathers if examined closely.

 

[Bart]

Since we are discussing complete players and I have recently seen the movie of the great homer race between Maris and Mantle.I thought I'd post this pieceabout him from a site honoring some players of Croatian descent. He may be the best player not in the hall of fame.


"Maris finished the 1961 season having played 159 games with 61 home
runs, 142 RBI's, 132 runs scored and only sixty-seven strikeouts in 590
at-bats. Roger Maris won the American League's Most Valuable Player
Award for the second year in a row. He was chosen "best of the best" on
one of the greatest teams in the history of the game.

The theory goes that Maris fizzled out after his brilliant 1961 season.
The facts, however, are different. In 1962 Maris flogged 34 doubles and
33 home runs as he helped the Yankees to another World Series title.
Again, he was golden in the field, overshadowed by only two Hall of Fame
outfielders, Roberto Clemente and Al Kaline. Hank Aaron, a fellow worthy
of comment about home runs and fielding said this about Maris, "What
irritates me the most is the suggestion that Roger was a fluke who had
one good hitting year. I played against him. He was one of the best
all-around outfielders I have ever seen."

Maris stayed with the Yankees until 1966, but injuries began to wear him
down. He was traded to St. Louis and promptly helped the Cardinals win
the 1967 World Series. In 1968, the Cards seemed on their way to another
World Series crown when Detroit rallied behind star left handed pitcher
Mickey Lolich (another American of Croatian descent) and won three games
in a row. That was it for Maris. In all, Maris played in seven World
Series in nine years. The Yankees paid tribute to him by retiring his
number "9" uniform in 1984 in a special ceremony at Yankee Stadium.

Mickey Mantle called Roger's 61 home runs "the greatest sports
accomplishment of his time."


Bill Skowron quote: " People just remember the 61 home runs. They forget Roger was an excellent base stealer and a superb right fielder. He was the best defensive right fielder in the Majors. He was an all round ball player, a humble guy, a real team player. History never gave him his due.

 

[Bart]

Mickey Mantle was on a team that rarely stole bases. The Yanks were a power team, not a bunch of banjo hitters. Also Mantle's legs were precarious, why take chances. But holy cow, when He did go for a steal he wasunbelievably successful. He stole 153 bases and was thrown out only 38 times, that's a Pct. of .801! I always heard Mays was a great thief but his Pct. was .766.


Power hitters usually hit into lots of double plays.They're big, don't move like little guys and are free swingers.Mantle hit rockets but was almost impossible to doublle up.In1961 he hit 54 homers, hitting into only3 double plays withnearly 550 at bats.That is totally nuts! I've seen guys hitinto 3 dp's in one game.

 

[jaxvid]

I like Roger Maris....a lot, but I don't think he deserves the Hall-of-fame. He just did not put up the numbers. Probably due to injuries but the hall is about accomplishments not potential. Maris had 3 good seasons. All the rest were either plain or not very good. The only reason he could ever be considered for the hall is because of the season home run record (which he still holds-most home runs in a season by a player not on steroids).

 

[Colonel_Reb]

These media types just have their agenda to force down everyone's throat, and that includes dragging dead men through the mud. It just shows how pathetic and cowardly they are. All their effort has caused nothing but the decline of the sport. Nobody I know really keeps up with it anymore. Sure, a few guys follow one team, or a few players, but no real fans. Thanks caste system media.

 

[Bart]

Jaxvid, You're probably right about Roger needing more stats but at least there is some kind of tribute for him in the HOF. I just checked the HOF web site, they are celebrating black history month.I found this item of a Negro League player who was inducted in 1981.


Did you know ... that Rube Foster won 44 games in a row as a pitcher with the 1902 Cuban Giants?


No, I didn't know that, no wonder he's in the hall. Hey my uncle Jeb won 76 games in a row pitching for the Toledo Roosters in 1925 but who cares?


Did you ever read stories about the Negro League players written over the years? They all have the same premise. So you think Babe Ruth could hit the ball a mile? Josh Gibson hit em twice as farwith a broom stick and one arm tiedbehind his back. Satchel Page could throw harder at the age of 67, than Nolan Ryan in his prime. He invented the screw ball and it is a known fact hitters died from fear while facing his icy stare.Cool Papa Bell was rounding second in the time it took Mantle to get to first. Bla Bla Bla.

 

[Gary]

George Brett was a good all around player,so was Al Kaline.Maris was very good.I remember the HR race with Mantle,I cheered for Mickey but also really liked Maris.We had a HR hitter in Cleveland two years before named Rocky Colavito,but to be honest both Maris and Mantle were much better. Yes the claims of the old Negro leagues are very hyped-the older I get the better I was!!

 

[speedster]

That's funny,Bart.These bullcrap stories seem to develop a life of their own.I thing it's more propoganda about how superior the black athlete is.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

Yep, propaganda and lies, with a little bitterness mixed in. Sure some of the Negro Leaguers were good, but a lot of those guys who were inducted had no business in the hall. They were let in on a PC sympathy trip. Unfortunately, it will continue until long after we are gone. They probably have a foudation set up to see that nearly all NL'rs are inducted into the HOF at some point. Let's face it, these people know how to thrive on guilt feelings, sympathy, and political correctness run rampant They know how to be persistent.