Bert Sugar evinces some honesty.

[White_Savage]

On a sports show the other night, boxing writer Bert Sugar was talking about his new book that elucidates his top 100 P4P boxers in history.

Now granted, Sugar Ray Robinson gets number one, which I think is debatable, and some other lighter-division blacks get 2 and 3 as well, if I remember correcrtly. But he gives the top HW as Dempsey!, then Tunney and Greb, a couple more lighter weight guys I think, and THEN Ali, a ranking which is at least approaching honesty and credulity.

Marciano doesn't make the top 10, but he does make the top 20, Sugar's argument was that he didn't fight enough greats, which is debatable, but at least reasonable.

Of course, in conversating with the host, the host asked him if that meant Jack Dempsey could beat Ali. Our host was all like, "Well, you know he was bigger than Dempsey, etc", praising Ali for beating the larger Foreman and questioning whether Dempsey could beat a larger man. (I guess the idiot didn't remember that Dempsey PREFERRED fighting larger opponents.) Sugar said that's not what the list is about, the question is unanswerable. Don't crawdad Bert, you ranked him as a HW ahead of Ali, you know that pretty much says "I think Dempsey could beat him.".

 

[Colonel Callan]

If Dempsey were figthing Ali under the rules that were in force during
Dempsey's heyday, then I really think Dempsey would have beaten him -
despite the many folks out there who would laugh and catcall. Using
today's "rules", which means the rules are enforced differently to allow a
lot of the crap Ali was allowed to get away with, then Ali would probably
win - just by running away if nothing else. Back in the day, you couldn't
run away while doing nothing else. You had to fight. Or you were outta
there.

 

[Gary]

Clay could not last 6 rounds taking the punches Dempsey hit Willard with in Toledo. Dempsey beats Clay in any era of boxing!

 

[White_Savage]

If Dempsey were figthing Ali under the rules that were in force during
Dempsey's heyday, then I really think Dempsey would have beaten him -
despite the many folks out there who would laugh and catcall. Using
today's "rules", which means the rules are enforced differently to allow a
lot of the crap Ali was allowed to get away with, then Ali would probably
win - just by running away if nothing else. Back in the day, you couldn't
run away while doing nothing else. You had to fight. Or you were outta
there.

Ali was a tall man with long arms who was very quick in both the foot and hand department-that's a given. That said, he did, as you say, win alot of fights by tapping while going backwards.

But one must recall that everybody old enough to have witnessed both men fighting said Ali was the fastest HW *since* Dempsey-Jack would have caught up to Ali and gotten in with the tiger-on-the attack speed he possessed. And Jack was both hard-chinned and didn't cut nearly as easily as many white fighters...pawing his face while going bacwards for a few rounds woulnd't have given Ali an easy stoppage on cuts. If Henry Cooper could do it, Jack rates at least 50% shot of knocking "the Greatest" flat on his rump.

Speaking of rules, if you remember that Bowe vrs. Zumbrun fight, Billy Zumbrun was almost re-enacting Dempsey vrs. Willard with a man who was much bigger, taller, and had like 10 inches of reach on him. But apparently giving a man with a ridiculous size advantage a boxing lesson isn't kosher in today's ring, because he got a vital point taken away on shoving Bowe with his shoulder or some such nonsense.Edited by: White_Savage

 

[Guest]

Callan makes an excellent point. It cannot be overstressed that modern boxing is NOT the same sport as boxing in the days of small horsehairgloves or bare knuckles. If you read Dempseys book on boxing technique it is clear that throwing wild full force blows with the horizontal fist and big two knuckles, just wasn't an option. Oldstyle boxing was a test of athleticism, endurance and iron toughness. No modern boxing champion could complete Bob Fitzimmons pre-fighttraining regime.

 

[Weltner]

Clay could not last 6 rounds taking the punches Dempsey hit
Willard with in Toledo. Dempsey beats Clay in any era of boxing!

Well,surely you've heard or read the stories about that fight -
that Dempsey may have had pieces of concrete or metal on his gloves.

 

[White Shogun]

Well,surely you've heard or read the stories about that fight - that Dempsey may have had pieces of concrete or metal on his gloves.

Yeah, I heard those stories. I read that it was a material called "hardfist," made of "bonyknuckle," mixed with "muscle."

It'll cut a guy up and knock him out fast, if you know how to use it right.

 

[Weltner]

On a sports show the other night, boxing writer
Bert Sugar was talking about his new book that elucidates his top 100
P4P boxers in history.


Now granted, Sugar Ray Robinson gets number one, which I think is
debatable, and some other lighter-division blacks get 2 and 3 as well,
if I remember correcrtly. But he gives the top HW as Dempsey!, then
Tunney and Greb, a couple more lighter weight guys I think, and THEN
Ali, a ranking which is at least approaching honesty and credulity.



Marciano doesn't make the top 10, but he does make the top 20,
Sugar's argument was that he didn't fight enough greats, which is
debatable, but at least reasonable.



Of course, in conversating with the host, the host asked him if
that meant Jack Dempsey could beat Ali. Our host was all like, "Well,
you know he was bigger than Dempsey, etc", praising Ali for beating the
larger Foreman and questioning whether Dempsey could beat a larger man.
(I guess the idiot didn't remember that Dempsey PREFERRED fighting
larger opponents.) Sugar said that's not what the list is about, the
question is unanswerable. Don't crawdad Bert, you ranked him as a HW
ahead of Ali, you know that pretty much says "I think Dempsey could
beat him.".

Not according to Frank Deford,classic,******-loving sports "journalist"
extrordinaire.To him,Dempsey was the most overrated heavyweight ,
because after he won the title,he,in Deford's words:



"...carefully picked his opponents.For Tommy Gibbons,he had his own ref
and the whole purse.For georges carpentier,he had a 17 pound edge.For
Luis Firpo,he was saved by the ringside press,who helped him back into
the ring after Firpo batted him out.Then he took three years off before
losing deciseively to Gene Tunney.All the while he avoided the true top
contender, Harry Wills,The Black Panther (Never heard of him - was he
black?With a nickname like that ,he had to be).Dempsey was a popular
champ,but to rank him in the company of Johnson(Figures),Louis(Oh,of
course....),Marciano (RIGHT),and Ali(Never) is nonsense."

(Sports Illustrated ,November 4,2002 issue - "Overrated/Underrated")



Maybe he was,who knows.But Marciano absolutely never was,so Sugar's
choice ought to have been a no-brainer - Marciano #1.SIMPLE!!!!

 

[White_Savage]

Jack Dempsey did not draw the color line. He easily destroyed the #2 and #3 black contenders. He never fought Wills because a fight couldn't be put together-the promoters were certain to loose money, because the public was so sure it would be a lopsided destruction of the "Black Panther" that prospects of ticket sales were dismal. Dempsey was vicious, powerful man who at the same time was good at the technical side of boxing-that combination is rare and hard to defeat. There are those who like to drege up a particular black athlete from the past and find all kinds of excuses for them not reaching the top, since (they are certain) blacks are so naturally superior of course.

 

[Weltner]

Jack Dempsey did not draw the color line. He easily
destroyed the #2 and #3 black contenders. He never fought Wills because
a fight couldn't be put together-the promoters were certain to loose
money, because the public was so sure it would be a lopsided
destruction of the "Black Panther" that prospects of ticket sales were
dismal. Dempsey was vicious, powerful man who at the same time was good
at the technical side of boxing-that combination is rare and hard to
defeat. There are those who like to drege up a particular black athlete
from the past and find all kinds of excuses for them not reaching the
top, since (they are certain) blacks are so naturally superior of
course.

And Deford's always been one of them.Thanks for filling me in. I 'll
never have any more doubts or skepticism about Dempsey ,again.

 

[Gary]

Jack Sharkey whipped George Godfrey and Harry Wills and Dempsey whipped Sharkey. Dempsey is under rated today. The most over rated Heavyweight Champ was Cassius Clay. Dempsey denied having loaded gloves to his dying day. I believe Dempsey. Dempsey whip's Clay in 6 rounds.

 

[jaxvid]

Now that I've seen more and more of Ali's fights, years after his heydey it looks to me that he was more myth then fighter. He never looked that invincible. He was fast but didn't punch very hard and he got hit a lot (look at him today). I think it was all about his public image and the tremendous support he got from fans and media and no doubt the people who arrange fight decisions.