Baseball Cards

[Booth]

I know it is right in the middle of the football season, but I just wanted to warn baseball card collectors that there is a tremendous amount of counterfeit cards floating around out there. I just got burned on a 1960 Willie Mayes card, which PSA said was fake. I got mine from an estate sale, so it is all on me. I will now only buy from hopefully reputable people.

 

[white is right]

I know it is right in the middle of the football season, but I just wanted to warn baseball card collectors that there is a tremendous amount of counterfeit cards floating around out there. I just got burned on a 1960 Willie Mayes card, which PSA said was fake. I got mine from an estate sale, so it is all on me. I will now only buy from hopefully reputable people.

This has been a problem since the first boom of the early 90's. I wonder if the original owner had a clue his card was fake. I won't buy any card above a certain value because of this.

Things are so bad with counterfeiting that devious counterfeiters are taking counterfeits and destroying 6 figure cards and making them into low 4 figure cards so that they have less scrutiny by buyers as a dinged up card looks more authentic.

It seems that police agencies only get involved if counterfeit rings are churning out cards left right and center but even there this problem has gone international with Chinese criminal gangs counterfeiting cards and being out of reach of Western police forces. Only middle men are ever prosecuted.

 

[Don Wassall]

There was a dealer in Indiana named Brett Lemieux doing business with his company Mister Mancave who confessed on Facebook in July as law enforcement was beginning to close on him that he had sold 4 million forged items worth $350 million. He then committed suicide. Many of the items were authenticated, which means even items that have the "seal of approval" as being genuine, may not be.

But the sports card and memorabilia market has been booming ever since the Covid lockdowns, so while one may think a scandal like this would be greatly damaging, it hasn't been. The one percent routinely pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and sometimes millions for individual cards, both old ones and many modern ones deliberately created to be scarce, while middle aged and older DWFs purchase material in line with their far more modest budgets.

Many storefront businesses are operating again, with ex-jocks like Tom Brady and Derek Jeter being partners in some of them. Card shows are drawing huge crowds, and while it seemed a decade ago that baseball cards would follow stamps and coins and become the declining hobby primarily of old men, the young are back into it as well despite how pricey all the new material is, with Pokemon cards being especially popular.

Here's an article about Lemieux and his criminal operation: https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/...lectors-hobby-companies-try-to-root-out-fraud

 

[white is right]

There was a dealer in Indiana named Brett Lemieux doing business with his company Mister Mancave who confessed on Facebook in July as law enforcement was beginning to close on him that he had sold 4 million forged items worth $350 million. He then committed suicide. Many of the items were authenticated, which means even items that have the "seal of approval" as being genuine, may not be.

But the sports card and memorabilia market has been booming ever since the Covid lockdowns, so while one may think a scandal like this would be greatly damaging, it hasn't been. The one percent routinely pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and sometimes millions for individual cards, both old ones and many modern ones deliberately created to be scarce, while middle aged and older DWFs purchase material in line with their far more modest budgets.

Many storefront businesses are operating again, with ex-jocks like Tom Brady and Derek Jeter being partners in some of them. Card shows are drawing huge crowds, and while it seemed a decade ago that baseball cards would follow stamps and coins and become the declining hobby primarily of old men, the young are back into it as well despite how pricey all the new material is, with Pokemon cards being especially popular.

Here's an article about Lemieux and his criminal operation: https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/...lectors-hobby-companies-try-to-root-out-fraud

Yes this would be a prime example of a counterfeiter destroying the industry. I remember in the first boom Brett Hull was hot as he was doing single season goal scoring totals similar to Gretzky in his early years in Edmonton and his card was hot so that was counterfeited. The counterfeit card had more vibrant colors so that was fairly easy to spot if you knew the brightness of the original. I remember a counterfeiter from the London Ontario area was busted with hundreds of thousands of dollars in counterfeit cards back when a hot card was worth about 100 dollars in "mint" condition. He was arrested by a provincial task force or unit.

Pretty much every card that was hot from this era was counterfeited as Gretzky cards were counterfeited and similar to Hull ones they were too bright and vibrant compared to the originals. Jordan had the same problem with brightness, it seems like counterfeiters couldn't fade the colors, similar to money counterfeiters and crisp bills but unlike money where you can wash it to fade the bill a card needs to be preserved to save the value.

 

[knightedsoldier5000]

I got back into card collecting after a 20 year hiatus as something of a hobby to share with my kids. I got burned too many times on ungraded cards so i mostly buy graded cards. I assume there's a bit more safety in buying something independently graded and verified, but those are probably faked too. I generally just buy the cards i want instead of messing around with unopened packs / boxes.

It's kind of a shame what's happened to bb cards. Kids have been priced out of the market and pretty much only adults can afford to buy them now.

Buying bb cards is a bit like playing the stock market. Buy low, sell high. Try to guess which players are undervalued and buy up their cards before they get hot. It's a huge waste of money but it is a unique connection between generations. I'll pass on my 80s / 90s junk wax cards to my kids. I wish my dad still had his 50s / 60s cards

 

[HaywoodZarathustra]

When you said buying independently graded and verified baseball cards is a bit safer, I thought of all the other collectibles that can be bought in slabbed and graded forms. Anyone here ever collect coins?

I've collected coins at different points in my life and also took a very long hiatus before tentatively getting back into it. I think, like baseball cards, if you buy them graded and verified, you can be sure you are getting the real thing for the most part, but that's only part of it. Baseball cards, and ephemera like movie and concert posters and comic books seem to be graded on a 1 to 10 basis, 10 being gem mint untouched. In coins it's a 1 to 70 basis, 70 being gem mint perfect. Two companies started in the late eighties have been the most trusted: PCGS and NGC. It's not terribly cheap to have your individual coins graded. Dealers have it better by sending in a bulk amount of coins to these companies who then have their people grade them, then assign numbers and take pics to upload to their databases, slab them in holders, and send them back.

Through the years, people have noticed that similarly dated and denominated coins with the same grade can look very different, quality wise. Coins in older holders from the eighties seem to have been graded more accurately than those more recently so. Does it come down to the employees back then as opposed to now? Different criteria from year to year? A little under the table payola? Why does a, say $5 Indian coin from the twenties, vary as much as a thousand dollars if it is graded MS-65 (Mint State) as opposed to MS-64? What little vague detail makes that one a 65 and that one a 64?

Recently a new company called CAC (Certified Acceptance Corporation) has been grading coins that were already slabbed by PCGS and NGC, due to the perceived widely divergent quality differences between coins with the same grades. If CAC agrees with the grade that PCGS or NGC has already given it, it puts a CAC sticker on it, and records the number of the coin in their own database. If it doesn't agree with the grade previously given by PCGS or NGC, it just sends the coin back without a sticker and nothing to show for it. So if that particular coin is sold to someone else who wants to send it to CAC to possibly get that prized sticker, it could be sent over and over with no new owner being the wiser. CAC has recently started accepting non graded coins, which I'm sure has PCGS and NGC none too pleased. People will also pay thousands for a super common coin just because it is graded higher than any that anyone else has.

To end this comment, all these grading services have totally ruined the hobby for me. I've got to think that there is payola involved with all the money to be made by moving the grade up even one number. You can read coin collectors swearing by what grade CAC gives their coins, but are they completely unbiased, or do they have to believe CAC is honest because they've bought into it? Sort of like people buying into the Covid jab because they don't want to believe they've been had. It would be too shocking and they've invested too much into it.

 

[white is right]

When you said buying independently graded and verified baseball cards is a bit safer, I thought of all the other collectibles that can be bought in slabbed and graded forms. Anyone here ever collect coins?

I've collected coins at different points in my life and also took a very long hiatus before tentatively getting back into it. I think, like baseball cards, if you buy them graded and verified, you can be sure you are getting the real thing for the most part, but that's only part of it. Baseball cards, and ephemera like movie and concert posters and comic books seem to be graded on a 1 to 10 basis, 10 being gem mint untouched. In coins it's a 1 to 70 basis, 70 being gem mint perfect. Two companies started in the late eighties have been the most trusted: PCGS and NGC. It's not terribly cheap to have your individual coins graded. Dealers have it better by sending in a bulk amount of coins to these companies who then have their people grade them, then assign numbers and take pics to upload to their databases, slab them in holders, and send them back.

Through the years, people have noticed that similarly dated and denominated coins with the same grade can look very different, quality wise. Coins in older holders from the eighties seem to have been graded more accurately than those more recently so. Does it come down to the employees back then as opposed to now? Different criteria from year to year? A little under the table payola? Why does a, say $5 Indian coin from the twenties, vary as much as a thousand dollars if it is graded MS-65 (Mint State) as opposed to MS-64? What little vague detail makes that one a 65 and that one a 64?

Recently a new company called CAC (Certified Acceptance Corporation) has been grading coins that were already slabbed by PCGS and NGC, due to the perceived widely divergent quality differences between coins with the same grades. If CAC agrees with the grade that PCGS or NGC has already given it, it puts a CAC sticker on it, and records the number of the coin in their own database. If it doesn't agree with the grade previously given by PCGS or NGC, it just sends the coin back without a sticker and nothing to show for it. So if that particular coin is sold to someone else who wants to send it to CAC to possibly get that prized sticker, it could be sent over and over with no new owner being the wiser. CAC has recently started accepting non graded coins, which I'm sure has PCGS and NGC none too pleased. People will also pay thousands for a super common coin just because it is graded higher than any that anyone else has.

To end this comment, all these grading services have totally ruined the hobby for me. I've got to think that there is payola involved with all the money to be made by moving the grade up even one number. You can read coin collectors swearing by what grade CAC gives their coins, but are they completely unbiased, or do they have to believe CAC is honest because they've bought into it? Sort of like people buying into the Covid jab because they don't want to believe they've been had. It would be too shocking and they've invested too much into it.

With the corruption endemic in the sports market it wouldn't be a shock to see bribes in the grading process for memorabilia and coins. At best it's soft corruption with big customers getting favorable grading. This has been implied for years in cards.

Over the years there have been so many scandals exposed by national television, industry watchers, bloggers and local reporters nothing shocks me anymore.

 

[white is right]

I got back into card collecting after a 20 year hiatus as something of a hobby to share with my kids. I got burned too many times on ungraded cards so i mostly buy graded cards. I assume there's a bit more safety in buying something independently graded and verified, but those are probably faked too. I generally just buy the cards i want instead of messing around with unopened packs / boxes.

It's kind of a shame what's happened to bb cards. Kids have been priced out of the market and pretty much only adults can afford to buy them now.

Buying bb cards is a bit like playing the stock market. Buy low, sell high. Try to guess which players are undervalued and buy up their cards before they get hot. It's a huge waste of money but it is a unique connection between generations. I'll pass on my 80s / 90s junk wax cards to my kids. I wish my dad still had his 50s / 60s cards

Yes it was a hobby that working class kids could afford and when I mean kids I mean kids that are well under even the typical paper route age. I said it before but I used to look for pop bottles near my parents house and returned them for change and bought packs in the mid 70's.
Now somebody like that couldn't buy more than a pack for Christmas or a birthday...

PS I had a buddy who grew up in the ghetto area of Boston and he had a decent collection of cards and comics he would have never been able to afford either in todays collecting era.