Wonderlic Scores and Racial Disparities

Discussion in 'Media Racism and Stereotyping' started by Colonel_Reb, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. Colonel_Reb

    Colonel_Reb Hall of Famer

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    I realize this is a topic that comes up every year because the media
    ignores the usually huge disparities when it comes to race and
    intelligence, as determined by the NFL's use of the Wonderlic test.
    White players score much higher (on average) than non-white players. The
    media is always ready to spout the big lie of black athletic supremacy,
    but never willing to mention the FACT that Whites are more intelligent
    than their non-white counterparts. They might discuss the scores, but
    they won't mention race as a cause. Just another example of the double
    standards that we fight against here at Caste Football.






    In his blog this week, James Edwards posted about the Wonderlic scores
    of some NFL prospects for 2011, and I thought it would be appropriate to
    post about it here.


    http://www.thepoliticalcesspool.org...ge-football-players-may-be-mentally-retarded/




    Alabama quarterback Greg McElroy (white) is one of the smartest
    players in college football. He correctly answered 43 of the 49
    questions he attempted on the Wonderlic test, which equates to a genius
    level IQ based on the formula given by Wonderlic.



    Meanwhile, sports related websites are talking about some of the
    exceptionally low scores of this year's top NFL draft prospects.



    From Yahoo Sports:

    <blockquote>

    Two of the NFL's brightest future stars, LSU CB Patrick
    Peterson and Georgia WR A.J. Green, registered among the five lowest
    Wonderlic scores of the 330 participants at this year's NFL scouting
    combine.


    Peterson was one of four prospects who recorded a dreaded
    single-digit score, which NFL teams often equate with getting their name
    right,
    tying with South Carolina's Chris Culliver for the
    lowest mark among all defensive backs as both correctly answered only
    nine questions on the 12-minute, 50-question test.


    Green registered the lowest score of all receivers, answering 10 questions correctly.</blockquote>



    So much for "student-athletes."Â￾ The Wonderlic test results for
    Patrick Peterson and A.J. Green translate to IQs in the 70s, which is
    near the mental retardation level.



    Wonderlic, Inc. claims
    a score of at least 10 points suggests a person is literate. Keep in
    mind that these black athletes scored in the single-digits, which would
    make them illiterate. Yet, they are attending college on scholarships.
    I guess it's "racist"Â￾ to think twice about that.



    In fact, many would argue that the formula for estimating IQ based on
    Wonderlic scores is too generous. The questions are far easier than a
    real IQ test. Other estimates of IQ based on Wonderlic scores would
    actually place Patrick Peterson, A.J. Green, and Chris Culliver in the
    mentally retarded range of 60-70.



    Here are some sample Wonderlic questions published by ESPN.
     
  2. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

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    Good subject, Colonel. Like Bigunreal, I find it very hard to believe that Scam Newton scored higher than Tim Tebow.
     
  3. Deus Vult

    Deus Vult Mentor

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    Wow! I rushed through the sample test in less than 2 minutes, and still scored 14/15. Question #11 was the only question of any real difficulty, so I skipped it in interest of time. This is not a tough test folks.Edited by: Deus Vult
     
  4. DixieDestroyer

    DixieDestroyer Hall of Famer

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    Highest Wonderlic scores...Havard's Pat McInally (50, perfect), BC's Mike Mamula (49) & Havard's Ryan Fitzpatrick (48...in 9 minutes)...all White.

    ..the lowest...Iowa State RB Darren Davis (4 of 50)...an afrolete.
     
  5. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    Cold Hard Football Facts just put out an article that said Wonderlic tests meant very little in predicting football ability.
     
  6. Colonel_Reb

    Colonel_Reb Hall of Famer

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    That may be true, sport historian, but at the same time those articles ignore the huge difference in intelligence.
     
  7. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

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    I just took that test and I find it hard to believe that Tim Tebow wasn't able to score better.
     
  8. Tired old White

    Tired old White Guru

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    Other than question 11 which involve about 5 seconds worth of math anyone who cannot answer these questions will probably need help finding their were way to and from the field for practice. There must be harder questions on the test than these.
     
  9. Tired old White

    Tired old White Guru

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    OK guys here is the Wonderlic stat break down for the class of 2011

    European African
    average36 17
    Standard Deviation5 10*
    Upper theoretical population limit50 47*
    Lower theoretical Population limit21 -14*
    * I know it is impossible to have a negative score but statistical formulas are theoretical and do not perfectly reflect the real world the negative number and the 47 UTPL are caused bywhitesblacks. This was caused a a score of 35 by Corner Back Prince Amukamara . If you remove his score from the blacks th numbers change dramatically the next closest black is Cam Newton at 21. Without Amukamara's score the number for the a] Africans change to anaverage of 13 standard deviation of 5 ( identical to that of whites) an Upper Theoretical Population Limit of 28 and a lower Theoretical Population Limit of -3.
     
  10. snow

    snow Mentor

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    well I have heard the actual test they give to prospects is much different than anything you can find online, and each one is different. It would not surprise me if Cam Newton somehow got an "easier" test because it is also odd how some guys get a 20 points higher on the 2nd try after getting a really low score.


    Of course all the defenders of why black players get low scores on this test is "they don't care" Yeah I am sure all of them don't care about a test that could cost them money, especially quarterbacks. I mean its less important for other skill positions but coaches want you to be at least able to understand a playbook

    as for correlation to football success, it looks like the guys from 25-35 have been the most successful, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers. The ones slightly above like Eli with a 39 has been good, but not in the elite category, and Favre is a little below at 22 and I would consider him one of the greatest. Everyone likes to bring up Terry Bradshaw and Marino, but the game has evolved since then, and that was a time when they probably ACTUALLY didn't care about a test like that. There is more emphasis on the wonderlic in the past decade, the game has evolved even from 90's. People say there is no correlation to 40 times and success, as long as it falls under a certain range, but it still doesn't stop scouts from drafting guys that run fast higher, even if it doesnt show up on tape, and it will cost you a ton if you run on the slower end, even if its respectable, although it matters more for whites than blacks, a 4.9 will drop a white linebacker out of at least the top 3 rounds even if he was a stud in college, Spikes ran a 5 second one and was drafted in the 2nd.

    it should be noted that im pretty sure that no qb after the 80's has won a superbowl with a score lower than a 22. Which would put Newton right under the benchmark.

    for the record Tebow scored a 22, higher than Newton and tied with Favre.



    1. Ryan Fitzpatrick 48

    2. Alex Smith 40

    3. Eli Manning 39

    4. Matt Stafford 38

    5. Tony Romo 37

    6. Aaron Rodgers 35

    6. Matt Leinart 35

    8. Tom Brady 33

    9. Matt Ryan 32

    10. Matt Schaub 31

    11. Philip Rivers 30

    12. Matt Hasselbeck 29

    12. Marc Bulger 29

    12. Brady Quinn 29

    15. Mark Sanchez 28

    15. Peyton Manning 28

    15. Drew Brees 28

    18. Josh Freeman 27

    18. Joe Flacco 27

    20. Carson Palmer 26

    20. Jay Cutler 26

    20. Kyle Orton 26

    23. Ben Roethlisberger 25

    24. Jason Campbell 23

    25. Brett Favre 22

    25. Tim Tebow 22

    25. Chad Henne 22

    28. Bruce Gradkowski 19

    29. Vince Young 15

    30. Donovan McNabb 14

    30. David Garrard 14

    Brian Griese 39

    Steve Young 33

    John Elway 29

    Michael Vick 20

    Dan Marino 15

    Randall Cunningham 15

    Jim Kelly 15

    Terry Bradshaw 15

    Seneca Wallace 14

    Brad Banks 13

    Chris Leak 8


    Super Bowl XXXV â€" 1/28/01

    Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens â€" Fresno State (22)

    Kerry Collins, New York Giants â€" Penn State (30)


    Super Bowl XXXVI â€" 2/3/02

    Tom Brady, New England Patriots â€" Michigan (33)

    Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams â€" Northern Iowa (29)


    Super Bowl XXXVII â€" 1/26/03

    Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers â€" Florida State (unavailable)

    Rich Gannon, Oakland Raiders â€" Delaware (27)


    Super Bowl XXXVIII â€" 2/1/04

    Tom Brady, New England Patriots â€" Michigan (33)

    Jake Delhomme, Carolina Panthers â€" Louisiana-Lafayette (32)


    Super Bowl XXXVIX â€" 2/6/05

    Tom Brady, New England Patriots â€" Michigan (33)

    Donovan McNabb, Philadelphia â€" Syracuse (14)


    Super Bowl XL â€" 2/5/06

    Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers â€" Miami, Ohio(25)

    Matt Hasselbeck, Seattle â€" Boston College (29)


    Super Bowl XLI â€" 2/4/07

    Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts â€" Tennessee (28)

    Rex Grossman, Chicago Bears â€" Florida (29)


    Super Bowl XLII â€" 2/3/08

    Eli Manning, New York Giants â€" Ole Miss (39)

    Tom Brady, New England Patriots â€" Michigan (33)


    Super Bowl XLIII â€" 2/1/09

    Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers â€" Miami, Ohio (25)

    Kurt Warner, Arizona Cardinals â€" Northern Iowa (29)


    Super Bowl XLIV â€" 2/7/10

    Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints â€" Purdue (28)

    Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts â€" Tennessee (28)




    So I would say there is a correlation for quarterback success. Scoring high doesn't mean they will be great, but scoring low probably means they won't win a superbowl, and only one with a low score has even made it in the past decade which the is kind of what the wonderlic tests, being able to process information in a short time period , under pressure. McNabb might be smart and could have choked on the test, just like in the Superbowl, but I doubt he gets much higher. People say the test should be football related, but teams run new things all the time, defenses throw something new all the time at a qb, out of the blue, he has to be able to process something that he isn't used to seeing, and the postseason is usually when defensive coordinators bring out the big guns, especially in the Superbowl.


    I mean Bill Bellicheck is a genius when it comes to football, espescially on the defensive side, when he had more talent on d he would throw some crazy stuff at you, quarterbacks wouldn't have a clue as to what was going on. He still does today but his defensive players aren't as good as they were when they played McNabb.


    Hell, Manning has always had trouble figuring out Bellicheck's defense and struggled pretty much every game and he is a smart guy. A guy that spends hours in the film room and would still struggle against the Patriots, while looking at the still photos from each offensive play of the game while on the sidelines. Am I supposed to believe that Cam Newton will be able to figure it out? or even put in close to the amount of hours someone like Manning or Brees puts into the film room? Because that is one excuse, is that he didn't care about getting a high number on the test. So if that is true, that means he doesn't care enough to put in work. Either way it doesn't equal success at the qb position.

    Edited by: snow
     
  11. Jimmy Chitwood

    Jimmy Chitwood Hall of Famer

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    i have actually taken the Wonderlic a couple of different times during the interview-hiring process for new jobs (and actually adminitered it a few times during a short-lived stint at a personnel firm). the complete, actual test is pretty much identical to the sample questions provided in this thread. while there are a few tough questions, most are very simple. the key point to the whole test's structure is as Snow pointed out in the post above mine: processing lots of information in a limited time while under pressure.

    for what it's worth, it seems some NFL "scouts" insist that scoring too highly is a bad thing ... as if being too smart somehow means you don't possess the (animal-like?) instincts necessary to succeed on the field. i won't bother repeating my score but i'm apparently too intelligent to be an NFL quarterback. ignore the fact that i can't throw a football for crap; it's my brain that is the problem. [​IMG]
     
  12. Tired old White

    Tired old White Guru

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    Another group that seems to score high is offensive linemen.
     
  13. Tom Iron

    Tom Iron Mentor

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    Gentlemen, Don't get wrapped up in this intelligence malarkey. When the s*it hits the fan in this country, it won't mean much how smart people are. What will be important is how well you/we can take care of ourselves and your families.

    Tom Iron...
     
  14. jaxvid

    jaxvid Hall of Famer

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    Considering that "football ability" is usually judged to be the person with the darkest skin, then it follows that IQ cannot relate to football abilty since the league intentionally selects lower scoring people as a matter of policy. Thus most players of "ability" are going to be black, and since blacks score lower, high scores will NOT be a predictor of success. I will wager however that the Green Bay Packers have one of, if not the highest, aggregate Wonderlic team scores in the NFL. I wonder what their "football ability" is?
     
  15. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    The Cold Hard Football Facts article was about quarterbacks. They made much of Terry Bradshaw's Wonderlic score of 15.
     
  16. Tired old White

    Tired old White Guru

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    The Intelligence of QB's may not matter as much as it once did. At one time the QB called plays , now they are sent in from one of the coaches. So if the QB can hand off and pass a run a little in a pinch Intelligence may not be a big deal.
     
  17. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    This theory has been around for a long time. I recall a piece in the Sporting News about 1973 that speculated QB might become a "black position" because the coaches were now calling the plays. Before the 1970s, nearly all QBs called their own plays.
     
  18. snow

    snow Mentor

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    Actually, intelligence matters even more now for a quarterback. The playbooks have evolved. The coordinator makes the call but the quarterback still has to make adjustments at the line, whether to audible etc, Brady, Manning and Brees are the best at this. Center is another position that requires intelligence, not only is Jeff Saturday athletically gifted, hes really smart and on the same page as Peyton as far as recognizing things, which is probably why Peyton wouldn't let him retire. In the NFL there is only a small window for where the information is coming into that qbs headset and the playclock is running, he is under pressure if the defense is showing something different, say the coordinator called in a play because he thought with this personnel grouping that they would call a certain play and they could exploit something. The quarterback gets to the line and realizes that they are going to do something else and has to change plays. Hell, we know Manning basically calls his own plays, most of the elite quarterbacks aren't told a specific play, rather they are given a suggestion of plays. I am more familiar with other positions but the quarterback one is difficult, even at the college level. You can't run around and play backyard football and expect it to work for long (which is what Aaron Brooks did for a while with Joe Horn). It was unorthodox, it threw teams off and they went to the playoffs. Coordinators aren't stupid, they figured that crap out real quick and shut it down. I have noticed this with a lot affletic quarterbacks, they have success, are figured out and never adjust. Vick finally adjusted with a new coordinator but even then they started figuring him out towards the end of the season. I mean you don't have to be a genius, you just can't be stupid.

    btw the headset was supposed to "blacken the position" as well. It hasn't worked. There is only so much you can do without brains, when the play is running and they are doing something you didn't expect, even if they left that headset in your helmet on you wouldn't be able to process it fast enough, so this is why we see scrambling, or just dumping off to a tight end or running back, even though they didn't go through all of their reads and still had time to. The problem today is, so many defensive players are pathetic, that mediocre quarterbacks can get by here and there. When you have your secondary running around like chickens with their heads chopped off, a start de who is half assing it. Fat defensive tackles that are gassed out after a few minutes etc. This is why we some qbs have success followed by inconsistency.

    Edited by: snow
     
  19. Tired old White

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    It does seem that a high Wonderlic score has some positive correlation with success. But there are some notable exceptions like Bradshaw and Marino who did not do well on the test but had outstanding careers. Then again there are a lot of other variables. McNabb did pretty well in Philadelphia but had trouble adapting to a different system in Washington.
    Some teams may run less complex offenses depending more on the physical skills of their players instead of baffling the defense.
     
  20. snow

    snow Mentor

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    The game has evolved tremendously since Bradshaw, and even since Marino. No quarterback under a 22 has won in the Superbowl in the past decade, and only 1 below 20 has been in, which is McNabb. Id have to check the scores from the 90's. I know Aikman, Elway both had a 29 and Steve Young a 33. Marino and Kelly had below 20, both never won the big one. Its debateable whether it had anything to do with intelligence, but if I had to pick a qb, I would want his to be above 20, assuming he has all the other skills to make an NFL quarterback. Of course there are always interviews, which give you a better clue about the person.

    The less complex offenses involve having a strong running game and just having your qb being a game manager, ala David Garrard and Maurice Jones Drew. That is getting harder to do with these afflectic backs that can't stay healthy for a few games, and the more complex/passing offenses have had more sucess lately like the Patriots/Colts/Packers. Notice how they seem to have one thing in common. I think a smashmouth running team with Hillis could win it all. If you look at white backs and their performance in the postseason, they go off, since the Superbowl era there hasn't been that many white backs but they have been in the record books, I know Riggins and Csonka are both in the post season record books. Guys like Hoge elevated his game with 2 back to back 100 yard games in the playoffs, they lost by one point to the Broncos. So not only does there seem to be a correllation to wonderlic scores and postseason success, there is a correlation between white runningbacks that actually get carries and postseason success. Craig James got his team to the big game, but it wasnt his fault that the qb didnt complete a pass and they were down a ton of points with in minutes, he only got 5 carries in the Superbowl. Not to mention Mark Van Eeghan and Jim Taylor (technically played in one year of the superbowl era). The position of runningback hasn't evolved to something more complex, if anything it would be easier or these guys to run today.
     
  21. Tired old White

    Tired old White Guru

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    Snow,
    Your comment about the complexity of passing attacks is interesting. Just eyeballing the stats I think that a positive correlation may exist between IQ and % Complete.
     

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