Sept. 11...

Bart

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Is this Bin Laden tape genuine or is it a government lie?I would like comments. It is not a gov. sourcesojudge for yourselves. I shouldn't be flippant. Be sure to read Bush's response.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html
binladen_tape.jpg
Edited by: Bart
 
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Bart said:
Is this Bin Laden tape genuine or is it a government lie? I would like comments. It is not a gov. source so judge for yourselves. I shouldn't be flippant.  Be sure to read Bush's response.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html  
style="WIDTH: 297px; HEIGHT: 90px" height=160 src="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/binladen_tape. jpg" width=600 border=2>[/QUOTE]

I think that people will believe what they want to believe.
 

White Shogun

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Menelik said:
Heres my problem with conspiracy theories. Here we have a government that can't control illegal immigration,

Sure they can. They don't want to.

Menelik said:
has unsound fiscal policies,

They don't want to control the budget, either. Spending irresponsibly keeps the status quo, keeps the guys making those decisions in office.

Menelik said:
]can't successfully control the insurgents in Iraq

They could to that, too, but we as a nation limit what we choose to do, not the enemy. Ever heard of Dresden? Berlin? Nagasaki? I'm not saying that we should do that, but I'm saying if the United States chose to, they could wipe out Iraq within a week.

Menelik said:
but they have the capabilities to take down the WTCs in the middle of New York City in broad daylight!

We tested nuclear weapons for 20 years while under a testing moratorium, and no one ever knew about that. We experimented on soldiers, and no one ever knew about that. We've had secret weapons, aircraft, and so on, some for upwards of two decades, flying around the globe, and no one knew about them, either, until the government declassified the information. It isn't nearly as impossible as one might think for the government to pull off something like this.


Menelik said:
What was their purpose if they did; to get us in a war with Iraq that we can't control?
Yes. And to advance the police state.


Menelik said:
If the government is that terrible don't you feel somewhat apprehensive about posting these views on the net. After all IF the government orchestrated 9-11, it would be no problem for them to track down and 'silence' dissenting voices now would it?

How do you know the government ISN'T tracking all this already? What do you think of Newt Gingrich's statement that if you do not support Bush in the war on terror, you are a homegrown insurgent? Have you not read the news articles about war protesters being tracked and monitored already?

Menelik said:
If you actually believe the 9-11 theories why can't you also believe the Katrina theories?

Yes, along with the CIA producing and importing crack to kill blacks, that the government used a weather machine to start Katrina and steer it to New Orleans to get rid of the blacks, that AIDS was started by the government to kill blacks, what else? Oh yes there was no moon landing, the CIA killed Kennedy, Martin Luther King, AND Malcolm X.
 
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White Shogun said:
Menelik said:
If you actually believe the 9-11 theories why can't you also believe the Katrina theories?

Yes, along with the CIA producing and importing crack to kill blacks, that the government used a weather machine to start Katrina and steer it to New Orleans to get rid of the blacks, that AIDS was started by the government to kill blacks, what else? Oh yes there was no moon landing, the CIA killed Kennedy, Martin Luther King, AND Malcolm X.

And those sound just as ridiculous as the 9-11 theories that are floating around. Like I have said earlier people will believe what they want to believe.
 

White Shogun

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The war in Iraq and against Palestine do not mean that we have to kowtow and kiss Muslim ass everytime someone says something they disagree with.

We shouldn't be making war in the Middle East.
We shouldn't be importing Muslims.
We shouldn't be letting the ones already here dictate to us what is acceptable and unacceptable.

Just because my government is making war on Iraqis does not mean that we should have to avoid saying something about Muhammad, or printing a distasteful cartoon about him or Muslims in general. The idiotic thing about the situation is that those who SUPPORT the war in Iraq, the neo-cons, are also the most likely to say that we have be careful not to OFFEND the Muslims, either. HELLO?? Don't you think having bombs dropped on your head is offensive?

The truth as I see it is on the third side of the coin: No war in Iraq: no immigration for Muslims. Then there are no more excuses for their violence and we don't have to worry about offending them.

Problem solved.
 

White Shogun

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Menelik said:
And those sound just as ridiculous as the 9-11 theories that are floating around. Like I have said earlier people will believe what they want to believe.

I'd like to know how the government on one hand can say that they never had a clue this would happen, yet within four hours they were at the Florida flight school interviewing employees and seizing documents.

They never had a clue but within hours of the planes hitting the towers, they knew the names of all 19 hijackers, even when they weren't on the passenger manifests.

You don't have to believe the towers were brought down by demolition or believe in a far-out conspiracy theory to see that the government is hiding something. Prior knowledge, failure to act, sheer incompetency, Israeli complicity in the event, who knows? There is more to the story than the government will admit, theories of conspiracy and demolition be damned.
 

Bart

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Menelik said:
I think that people will believe what they want to believe.
Yes, I can believe you work for the government. Let me run these past you. Perhaps you didn't have your glasses on.It's enlarged so even you can see the difference. Which Bin Laden photo'sare fakes? Even Stevie Wonder could pick it out.


Another article questioning tapes.


[url]http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2006/200106Bin_L aden_Tape.htm[/url]





200106fatnose.jpg



http://www.physics911.net/kevinbarrett.htm
Top Bin Laden Expert: The Tapes are Fakes
Kevin Barrett


As a PhD in Islamic and Arabic Studies, I hate to say this, but I'll say it anyway. The events of 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam. The war on terror itself is as phony as the latest "Bin Laden tape." (Guardian 04)


It's tough to admit because I know on which side my bread is buttered - and dropping Islam from the 9/11 equation is like dropping my bread butter-side-down. The myth that 9/11 had something to do with has poured millions into Arabic and Islamic studies. I finished my PhD in 2005, so all I have to do is keep my eyes in my pocket and my nose to the ground, parrot the party line, and I'll be on the fast track to tenure.


The trouble is, it's all based on a big lie. Take the recent "Bin Laden tape," - please! That voice was no more Bin Laden than it was my late Aunt Corinne from Peoria. I recently helped translate a previously unknown Bin Laden tape, a real one from the early 90's, back when he was still alive. I know the guy's flowery religious rhetoric. The recent tape certainly wasn't him.


The top American Bin Laden expert agrees. Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University's Religious Studies Department, has just finished a book of translations of Bin Laden's speeches. He says the recent tape is a fake and that Bin Laden has been dead for years. (ABC 2004).


Ersatz Bin Laden tapes "verified" by the CIA are nothing new. Every Bin Laden statement since 2001 has been blatantly bogus. The last we heard from the real Bin Laden were the following words recorded by Pakistani journalists: "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation . . . I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks on the United States . . . I had no knowledge of these attacks. . ." (Wiki 2004)


Then, on December 13, 2001, as George Bush was whining about the "outrageous conspiracy theories" that were spreading like wildfire, the first and shoddiest of the "Bin Laden Speaks from the Grave" tapes appeared. The video's sound and picture quality were horrible. It showed a big guy with a black beard, doing a passable imitation of Bin 's voice, claiming foreknowledge, if not responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and chortling over their success. The trouble was, the big guy was clearly not Bin Laden. He was at least 40 or 50 pounds heavier and his facial features were obviously different. (911Res 2005)


The "Fatty Bin Laden tape" was widely ridiculed and I have yet to meet an informed observer who considers it authentic. (If you haven't figured this out yet, go back and look at the images from the tape and compare them to other images of Bin Laden.) But the media let the fraud pass without asking the hard questions. Why was the US government waving this blatantly fake "confession" video in our faces?


Perhaps due to the widespread hilarity evoked by Fatty Bin Laden, the next Ousama-from-beyond-the-grave message had no images: It was an audio tape delivered to al-Jazeera in the fall of 2002. The CIA verified it as "authentic," but ended up with egg on its face when the world's leading voice identification experts at IDIAP in Switzerland reported that "the message was recorded by an impostor." (Guardian 2002)


Every Bin Laden message since then has been equally phony. They are released at moments when the Bush regime needs a boost - and the American (mainstream) media go along with the fraud. Remember the bogus Bin Laden tape that made headlines right before the 2004 elections? If you didn't figure out that it was a CIA-produced commercial for George Bush, I have some great bridges to sell you. Walter Cronkite, bless his heart, opined that Karl Rove was behind that tape. (CNN ) But the rest of the media just kept pretending that the Emperor was clothed.


And the fraud continues. Last week's [need a date if you don't want this article to age prematurely] Bin Laden tape has been ridiculed by America's top Bin Laden expert, yet the US media gamely held its tattered fig leaf over the Emperor's loins. Professor Lawrence believes that the tape was designed to distract world opinion from the horrific massacre of Pakistani civilians by an errant CIA drone. But it may have another, more sinister purpose: To prepare public opinion for another false-flag 9/11-style attack designed to trigger a US-Israel nuclear attack on Iran. (AC 2005)


As our top Bin Laden expert Professor Lawrence says, the real Bin Laden, who insisted that he had nothing to do with 9/11, has been dead since 2001. The fake messages have been fabricated by al-CIA-duh to support the Bush regime and its phony "war on terror." It is time for Americans to rise up against the masters of synthetic terror who have been looting the US taxpayer, torching the Constitution, demolishing the economy, and threatening a nuclear Armageddon.


About the author


Dr Barrett holds a PhD in Arabic, with a focus on Islamic studies, from the University of Wisconsin at Madison. He is cofounder of the Muslim-Christian-Jewish Alliance for 9/11 Truth
 
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Bart said:
Menelik said:
I think that people will believe what they want to believe.
Yes, I can believe you work for the government.  Let me run these past you.  Perhaps you didn't have your glasses on.  

I just have a different opinion than you. Its interesting though that you can read my post and deduce that I work for the government and need to wear glasses. I've said it before; the clairvoyant abilities of some posters never fails to amaze me.
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LabMan

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It is quite helpful to speak with airline pilots when the subject of 9/11 comes up.They will confirm that turns,routes into N.Y,and drops in altitude attained by the 767 aircraft are almost an impossibility by even the most experienced among their ranks!


They will also tell you that the 757 and 767 can be taken over in mid flight,and sent into a remote control mode that cannot be reversed by the onboard flight crew.This software was developed to thwart in flight hijackings and land said aircraft at a safe destination.On to jet fuel,it is basically kerosene and burns at a temp. of roughly 800 deg.,no where near hot enough to melt steel.Jerry Mazza is a solid writer who is a life long N.Y. resident,and has turned out many solid essays on 9/11,that can be found at ,Mazza archives www.onlinejournal.com.


Other helpful sites: www.st911.org


www.911proof.com


Also,an essay by Manuel Valenzuela,"Two axioms of 911" can be found at www.anu.orgor www.valenzulasveritas.blogspot.com
 

White Shogun

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I don't want it to be lost in all this talk of conspiracy theories and so on that real people lost their lives in this debacle, whatever the cause. One of our own has shared his loss with us and I'd ask that we all, myself included, be considerate when we discuss this issue. My heart goes out to GWTJ and his family; I can only imagine their grief and don't know how I would respond to these kinds of threads or conversations if I lost a loved one on 9/11.
 

Bart

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Menelik said:
I just have a different opinion than you. Its interesting though that you can read my post and deduce that I work for the government and need to wear glasses.


I read a post of yours from another thread where you saidyou spent several years serving as an advisor in the Middle East. I somehow had the impression you worked for the government. To say you have a different opinion and try to link everything to conspiracy theories doesn't score any points for your side. I'm glad that we are beginning to look into these matters more deeply. Do you really feel a bunch of third world camel jockeys with a few small plane flying lessons conceived and executed a plan to take down the twin towerswith sophisticated airliners?They proceed unimpeded, performing complicated maneuvers and level the buildings flush with the ground? That is one heck of a conspiracy theory, isn't it? You see, anyone can toss that terminology around.
 
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Bart said:
Menelik said:
I just have a different opinion than you. Its interesting though that you can read my post and deduce that I work for the government and need to wear glasses.


I read a post of yours from another thread where you said you spent several years serving as an advisor in the Middle East.  I somehow had the impression you worked for the government.  To say you have a different opinion and try to link everything to conspiracy theories doesn't score any points for your side.  I'm glad that we are beginning to look into these matters more deeply. Do you really feel a bunch of third world camel jockeys with a few small plane flying lessons conceived and executed a plan to take down the twin towers with sophisticated airliners?  They proceed unimpeded, performing complicated maneuvers and level the buildings flush with the ground?  That is one heck of a conspiracy theory,  isn't it?  You see, anyone can toss that terminology around. 

I'm a vet. My service with the government was in the military. Been retired for 6 years now. Why couldn't you believe that a "bunch of third world camel jockeys" are responsible for 9-11? A bunch of third world rice farmers, with a little help from their friends, defeated us in Vietnam? Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? I guess that I too shouldn't be so flippant.
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White Shogun

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Although I have already pointed out in this thread, and elsewhere, that I do not believe the government is telling us the truth about 9/11, I think we underestimate the 'enemy,' if you will, if we think him uncapable of great feats of planning and strategem.
 

Bart

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Menelik said:
I'm a vet. My service with the government was in the military. Been retired for 6 years now. Why couldn't you believe that a "bunch of third world camel jockeys" are responsible for 9-11? A bunch of third world rice farmers, with a little help from their friends, defeated us in Vietnam? Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? I guess that I too shouldn't be so flippant.
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A protracted war in Southeast Asia foughtover many years on the enemies turf cannot be equated with what we have been discussing. There were many countries involved with forces on the ground, sea and in the air.Once again you offer little( nothing) by way of rebuttal.


Did you see the Fox video reports of the huge Israeli spy network? Do you not care about thevans, the weapons and web of deceit? Our country apprehended scores and scores and scores of them. They disappeared in a puff of smoke hell bent for Israel released by our government officials. Aren't you curious about their intentions and involvement? Wouldn't you like to know what they were up to? I guess not. Let's bury it all under the rug and pretend we are Patriots.
 

Kaptain

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Don I'm glad you posted what you did about your view on 911. I have the same opinion. One thing that people have to remember about all the conspiracy theorys is that not all of them can be true, but don't throw out the baby with bathwater. Many questions and undeniable facts still remain. Here's a list of some of my favorites.

1) Several of the original highjackers are still alive. How could this be? A- fake passports. So, how many of the other highjackers also had fake passports? Why would what appears to be a highly coordinated planned attack have fake passports for some and real for others? Seems inconsistent.

2) Osama Bin Laden orginally denied involvement in 911 on tape. Later, a very questionable video tape of Osama confessing is found in a cave in Iraq. How convienent.

3) The first suspects arrested on the scene of 911 were Israeli mossad agents celebrating and videotaping the event as it unfolded. Boxcutters, fake passports, and trace elements of explosives were found in their van. They, and about 200 other israeli spys (art students etc)were captured in the upcoming months. They failed lie detector tests when questioned on their knowledge of 911. Yet all of these spys were released by Michael Chertoff(israeli citizen)within months and quickly fled to Israel before the 911 commisson could investigate.

4) The entire Israeli moving company in question ran out the country like bats out of hell before they could be questioned - within days of 911. Never to be heard from again. Sound like innocence to you?

5)Only one Israeli nationalist was killed in 911. The projected figure that Bush first gave was well over a hundred. Somehow Israelis were warned in advance of the attack.

6) At the very least the above facts show that Israel had prior knowledge of the 911 attacks. That to me is the same as perpetrating the attack themselves. I don't know that our government knew of the attacks but I do know that a government knew.

There are more points but I don't want to get into them now. If I wrong on any of these points, let me know. Edited by: Kaptain Poop
 
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Bart said:
A protracted war in Southeast Asia fought over many years on the enemies turf cannot be equated with what we have been discussing.  There were many countries involved with forces on the ground, sea and in the air.  Once again you offer little ( nothing) by way of rebuttal.
Did you see the Fox video reports of the huge Israeli spy network? Do you not care about the vans, the weapons and web of deceit? Our country apprehended scores and scores and scores of them. They disappeared in a puff of smoke hell bent for Israel released by our government officials.  Aren't you curious about their intentions and involvement?  Wouldn't you like to know what they were up to? I guess not.  Let's bury it all under the rug and pretend we are Patriots.

You don't think that this current war might not also become protracted? I'm curious though; who was on the ground for the North Vietnamese? There was the NVA, NVLF, and VC. North Vietnam had advisers from Red China and Russia but those two countries did not commit any large land forces. On the U.S. side it was mainly the U.S. with help from the R.O.K., 3 divisions, and small contingents of Australian and New Zealand? forces. I've offered my opinion on the topic just the same as you have. You have chosen to just hear what you want to and post ad hominem attacks in response.
 

Bart

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Menelik said:
Bart said:
Did you see the Fox video reports of the huge Israeli spy network? Do you not care about thevans, the weapons and web of deceit? Our country apprehended scores and scores and scores of them. They disappeared in a puff of smoke hell bent for Israel released by our government officials. Aren't you curious about their intentions and involvement? Wouldn't you like to know what they were up to? I guess not. Let's bury it all under the rug and pretend we are Patriots.

You don't think that this current war might not also become protracted? I'm curious though; who was on the ground for the North Vietnamese? There was the NVA, NVLF, and VC. North Vietnam had advisers from Red China and Russia but those two countries did not commit any large land forces. On the U.S. side it was mainly the U.S. with help from the R.O.K., 3 divisions, and small contingents of Australian and New Zealand? forces. I've offered my opinion on the topic just the same as you have. You have chosen to just hear what you want to and post ad hominem attacks in response.


Melnik, you haven't come close to answering any questions. You answer questions with questions and offer nothing but evasions.You gave a Clintonesque answer to the question about the phony Bin-Laden tape. I could ask a group of third graders to look at the photos and I'd bet 9 out of 10 could see it was bogus. Trying to get a response about the Israel spy network is like pulling teeth. Lehitraot.
 
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Bart said:
Menelik said:
Bart said:
Did you see the Fox video reports of the huge Israeli spy network? Do you not care about the vans, the weapons and web of deceit? Our country apprehended scores and scores and scores of them. They disappeared in a puff of smoke hell bent for Israel released by our government officials.  Aren't you curious about their intentions and involvement?  Wouldn't you like to know what they were up to? I guess not.  Let's bury it all under the rug and pretend we are Patriots.
You don't think that this current war might not also become protracted? I'm curious though; who was on the ground for the North Vietnamese? There was the NVA, NVLF, and VC. North Vietnam had advisers from Red China and Russia but those two countries did not commit any large land forces. On the U.S. side it was mainly the U.S. with help from the R.O.K., 3 divisions, and small contingents of Australian and New Zealand? forces. I've offered my opinion on the topic just the same as you have. You have chosen to just hear what you want to and post ad hominem attacks in response.


Melnik, you haven't come close to answering any questions. You answer questions with questions and offer nothing but evasions. You gave a Clintonesque answer to the question about the phony Bin-Laden tape.  I could ask a group of third graders to look at the photos and I'd bet 9 out of 10 could see it was bogus. Trying to get a response about the Israel spy network is like pulling teeth. Lehitraot.

Please...all that you have done is posted bogus and spurious theories about what happened on 9-11. There, thats my opinion. What makes mine better than yours? Nothing. We could go on about this all night and we still couldn't convince each other. Besides the skins are about to put the cowboys to bed
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. Good clean argument though. Please don't take offense at any of my replies. Feel free to continue the ad hominem and straw-man attacks though
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Don Wassall

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Menelik said:
Please...all that you have done is posted bogus and spurious theories about what happened on 9-11. There, thats my opinion. What makes mine better than yours? Nothing. We could go on about this all night and we still couldn't convince each other. Besides the skins are about to put the cowboys to bed
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. Good clean argument though. Please don't take offense at any of my replies. Feel free to continue the ad hominem and straw-man attacks though
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There's a huge difference in quality between you and Bart. Bart presents facts, news links, video links and other evidencealong with his opinions. You, Menelink are nothing but an obfuscater.
 
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Don Wassall said:
Menelik said:
Please...all that you have done is posted bogus and spurious theories about what happened on 9-11. There, thats my opinion. What makes mine better than yours? Nothing. We could go on about this all night and we still couldn't convince each other. Besides the skins are about to put the cowboys to bed
smiley2.gif
. Good clean argument though. Please don't take offense at any of my replies. Feel free to continue the ad hominem and straw-man attacks though
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There's a huge difference in quality between you and Bart.  Bart presents facts, news links, video links and other evidence along with his opinions.  You, Menelink are nothing but an obfuscater.

Of course you are going to agree with Bart. He is preaching to the choir here. No big suprise about that. Thanks for letting me voice my opinion though.
 

Don Wassall

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Again, you obfuscate. At least you're consistent.
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Don Wassall said:
Again, you obfuscate.  At least you're consistent. 
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Glad to provide some comic relief oh amazing Kreskin!
 

Don Wassall

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I have a real problem with someone who hasn't written a single pro-white-athlete post being a "Caste Football Guru," so goodbye and good luck with your "research."
 

Bart

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jaxvid said:
Just because you disagree with Bush or the war or whatever how can you not see why there is a very good connection between 911 and Iraq?


I would like to post links and statements recently made by Bush, Cheney and the Senate Intelligence Committee. Many good and honest people have been mislead by past statements. These are within the past month.


[url]http://infowars.com/articles/iraq/bush_now_says_iraq_had_not hing_do_with_911.htm[/url]
<BLOCKQUOTE>
BUSH: The terrorists attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens before we started the freedom agenda in the Middle East.
QUESTION: What did Iraq have to do with it?
BUSH: What did Iraq have to do with what?
QUESTION: The attack on the World Trade Center.
BUSH: Nothing. Except it's part of â€â€￾ and nobody has suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a â€â€￾ Iraq â€â€￾ the lesson of September 11th is take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody's ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq</BLOCKQUOTE>http://www.politicalhotwire.com/1916-bush-said-iraq-had-nothing-do.html


[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/09/10/cheney-admits-sadda m-huss_n_29113.html[/url]


Cheney: Excerpted from the transcript of today's NBC Meet The Press with host Tim Russert.


...MR. RUSSERT: All right. Now the president has been asked, "What did Iraq have to do with the attack on the World Trade Center?" and he said "nothing." Do you agree with that?


VICE PRES. CHENEY: I do. So it's not...


MR. RUSSERT: So it's case, case closed.


VICE PRES. CHENEY: We've never been able to confirm any connection between Iraq and 9/11.


MR. RUSSERT: And the meeting with Atta did not occur?


VICE PRES. CHENEY: We don't know. I mean, we've never been able to, to, to link it, and the FBI and CIA have worked it aggressively. I would say, at this point, nobody has been able to confirm...


Read the entire transcript here.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14728447/


Senate report: No Saddam, al-Qaida link
sourceAP.gif
Updated: 2:31 p.m. CT Sept 8, 2006WASHINGTON
<DIV =textTimestamp>
There's no evidence Saddam Hussein had ties with al-Qaida, according to a Senate report issued Friday on prewar intelligence that Democrats say undercuts President Bush's justification for invading Iraq.
Bush administration officials have insisted on a link between the Iraqi regime and terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Intelligence agencies, however, concluded there was none.http://64.233.167.104/search
 
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