NFL Combine
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ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
I looked it up: Brad Mueller ran a 4.27 at the Scout.com combine; so I was basically spot on. And I think Brandon Wegher was timed in some event recently at 4.28. But trust me I doubt Wegher's 4.28 time will hold up at the NFL Combine. Mueller's very well might have though; the Scout.com Combine seems to be a slow track and I think the timers are pretty accurate.
Mueller hit the 10.4 range as a 100 meter sprinter I believe, but fell into obscurity at Slippery Rock College.
If Wegher or McGuffie run at the NFL Combine, I would predict a mid 4.3x for Wegher and a low 4.3x for Guff. I also believe Shane McCullen ran a 4.35 at the Scout.com Combine, but is being labeled a Safety! He should add 15 lbs. to his frame and play RB!
Mueller hit the 10.4 range as a 100 meter sprinter I believe, but fell into obscurity at Slippery Rock College.
If Wegher or McGuffie run at the NFL Combine, I would predict a mid 4.3x for Wegher and a low 4.3x for Guff. I also believe Shane McCullen ran a 4.35 at the Scout.com Combine, but is being labeled a Safety! He should add 15 lbs. to his frame and play RB!
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Jimmy Chitwood mice article. It makes me too mad to think about all that wasted talent so I had to stop reading it halfway through. That is more than ample case for the caste sytem.
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Brad Mueller info...
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=8512 1&draftyear=2008&genpos=FS<a href="http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=85121&draftyear=2008&genpos=FS" target="_blank">
SRU-Pro Day</a>
It's hard to believe that there are regular posters on this board that don't believe White athletes can run sub 4.4 forties.
I suggest everybody look into the testing done at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics that measured the overall athleticism of all the various athletes. White weight lifters, not surprisingly, were the best. They were actually faster than the 100-m sprinters up to, I believe, 25 meters and stride for stride up to about 30 meters. They were also the quickest, most agile, and had the best vertical jumps as I understand it. In regards to power and exlosiveness, White athletes are almost certainly the best. This probably varies from one White ethnic group to another no different than it varies from one black ethnic group to another but the best in the world are White.
Also, Zwinggi ran a legit 4.26. I guess you could take his higher numbers or even the average of all of his runs to get a more accurate number but you would have to do the same for the black players. This is rarely done. Many of the blacks who get credit for running a particular time probably only ran it once and under ideal conditions and yet that is the number accredited to them as their real speed whereas White athletes, even on this board, are held to a higher standard whereby the average or higher number is taken.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=8512 1&draftyear=2008&genpos=FS<a href="http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=85121&draftyear=2008&genpos=FS" target="_blank">
SRU-Pro Day</a>
It's hard to believe that there are regular posters on this board that don't believe White athletes can run sub 4.4 forties.
I suggest everybody look into the testing done at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics that measured the overall athleticism of all the various athletes. White weight lifters, not surprisingly, were the best. They were actually faster than the 100-m sprinters up to, I believe, 25 meters and stride for stride up to about 30 meters. They were also the quickest, most agile, and had the best vertical jumps as I understand it. In regards to power and exlosiveness, White athletes are almost certainly the best. This probably varies from one White ethnic group to another no different than it varies from one black ethnic group to another but the best in the world are White.
Also, Zwinggi ran a legit 4.26. I guess you could take his higher numbers or even the average of all of his runs to get a more accurate number but you would have to do the same for the black players. This is rarely done. Many of the blacks who get credit for running a particular time probably only ran it once and under ideal conditions and yet that is the number accredited to them as their real speed whereas White athletes, even on this board, are held to a higher standard whereby the average or higher number is taken.
Thrashen
Hall of Famer
Jimmy C, posts like that are the reason you're a living CF legend!
Former Razorback WR Tom Crowder's 4.25 40 time is an especially sickening waste of talent. Most "fast" black WR's are almost midgets, whereas Crowder was a tall, big-framed WR with hands (does any white WR have bad hands?). He could have been a faster version of Torry Holt. Dallas threw him away the instant he was injured. Shocking.
Speaking of sub 4.3 white CB's getting screwed....anyone remember former Lions CB / WSTD, Chris Kern? He has some serious speed.
Former Razorback WR Tom Crowder's 4.25 40 time is an especially sickening waste of talent. Most "fast" black WR's are almost midgets, whereas Crowder was a tall, big-framed WR with hands (does any white WR have bad hands?). He could have been a faster version of Torry Holt. Dallas threw him away the instant he was injured. Shocking.
Speaking of sub 4.3 white CB's getting screwed....anyone remember former Lions CB / WSTD, Chris Kern? He has some serious speed.
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Zwinggi; I guess did run a 4.26, but I try to get the most accurate time for any athlete. I do not hold whites to a higher standard. NFLdraftscout.com lists Zwinggi's projected Combine 40 time as 4.36; although i have seen them occasionally underestimate white speed. The Combine is a slightly slower track and the times are video EDITED for accuracy which normally slows the times yet even slightly more.
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Basically my opinion from research is that there is VERY little disparity between black and white speed position players over 40 yards when you discount the guys like Mike Alsott and Peyton Hillis that were made to beef up to block and were no longer ideal weight for a tailback. Or how about Steven Korte? A "FB" who beefed up; still with 4.38 hand-timed speed; didn't run at the Combine and wasn't even considered an NFL prospect b/c of lack of chance in college, despite running for 11 YPC one year in Louisiana in H.S.
Or how about the beefing up of RB Tim Shaw; could have been a slightly faster version of Brian Leonard maybe w/ better vision too, a "Steven Jackson type"? Or how about all the white speedsters who don't have the frame/size to beef up to play safety or are natural RBs instead of wideouts and have to go to the lower college levels due to the Caucasian position ban? (Woodhead, Beaver, Zwinggi, Mueller etc.)
I haven't taken a large enough sample to get a PERFECT picture of black vs. white athletic advantage; but from comparing a couple years of prospect's Combine and Pro-day times of "non-position switch/beefed up" players, I took the top 10 NFLdraftscout natural white speed position guys at Safety, RB and WR and the difference was around .05 seconds slower over 40 yards if I recall for the two years I compared. The difference in distance between a 4.6 and 4.4 40 yard is 1.8 yards. So .05 seconds difference would be about 0.45 yards. or about 1.5 feet; which is basically within arm reach for a tackle.
The black prospects do tend to separate better post-20 yards down-field though; where the whites separate amazingly in the first 10 yards.
Like I said the ELITE white speed prospects make up for a slight disadvantage on average in top-end speed b/c they seem to do a little better than the blacks in 10 yard splits and 3-cone and short shuttle drills. The last two mentioned tests are good indicators of acceleration and agility in the x-y plane.
I had gotten the slasher/ jump cut styles confused in another post:
To reiterate, maybe this is why a higher PERCENTAGE of top white RBs are Cutback/North-south slashers, plus the TOP white prospects seem to break tackles better and (as mentioned) have better burst on average.
The elite black RBs "TREND WISE" seem "to be more likely" to be darting/ jump cutting style scat backs. They don't start and stop momentum as well, but can dart in another direction on the move while losing slightly less speed. But there are lots of exceptions to this trend of course.
Chris Wells, Andre Brown, Shoon Greene, Cedric Scott, Steven Jackson, Marion Barber, Deuce McCallaster, Ricky Williams, Emmitt Smith, DeShaun Foster (Haven't seen much footage, but Walter Payton probably too) Brandon Jacobs, Terrell Davis, maybe even Rashard Mendenhall or Johnathan Stewart form last year are all typical slashing north-south backs. Even ESPN top H.S recruit Trent Richardson and ESPN 150 prospects Cierre Wood and Michael Ford somewhat seem to be north-south slashing guys.
But of course Tom Luginbill has nothing but praise for these Non Melanin challenged backs.
McGuffie, Rex Burkhead, Wegher, Ben Bowen and somewhat Trumpy seem to be a mix of jump cutter and slashing style. John Howell, Cory McCaffrey of last year (and Danny Woodhead too from what I've seen) are more typical small scat-backs.
Personally I like the guys who can make that intial cut to the hole and explode up field breaking though any arm tackle and use angles to get the most out of their yards. These guys are more consistent moving the chains. If you also have great speed this style is certainly more effective IMO; because after your explosion to the hole you can use your vision and speed to take it the distance. If you make adjust your cutting style to both types like McGuffie, Wegher, Burkhead and somewhat Ben Bowen it makes you an INCREDIBLE PROSPECT because each style can be more effective in certain situations.
Or how about the beefing up of RB Tim Shaw; could have been a slightly faster version of Brian Leonard maybe w/ better vision too, a "Steven Jackson type"? Or how about all the white speedsters who don't have the frame/size to beef up to play safety or are natural RBs instead of wideouts and have to go to the lower college levels due to the Caucasian position ban? (Woodhead, Beaver, Zwinggi, Mueller etc.)
I haven't taken a large enough sample to get a PERFECT picture of black vs. white athletic advantage; but from comparing a couple years of prospect's Combine and Pro-day times of "non-position switch/beefed up" players, I took the top 10 NFLdraftscout natural white speed position guys at Safety, RB and WR and the difference was around .05 seconds slower over 40 yards if I recall for the two years I compared. The difference in distance between a 4.6 and 4.4 40 yard is 1.8 yards. So .05 seconds difference would be about 0.45 yards. or about 1.5 feet; which is basically within arm reach for a tackle.
The black prospects do tend to separate better post-20 yards down-field though; where the whites separate amazingly in the first 10 yards.
Like I said the ELITE white speed prospects make up for a slight disadvantage on average in top-end speed b/c they seem to do a little better than the blacks in 10 yard splits and 3-cone and short shuttle drills. The last two mentioned tests are good indicators of acceleration and agility in the x-y plane.
I had gotten the slasher/ jump cut styles confused in another post:
To reiterate, maybe this is why a higher PERCENTAGE of top white RBs are Cutback/North-south slashers, plus the TOP white prospects seem to break tackles better and (as mentioned) have better burst on average.
The elite black RBs "TREND WISE" seem "to be more likely" to be darting/ jump cutting style scat backs. They don't start and stop momentum as well, but can dart in another direction on the move while losing slightly less speed. But there are lots of exceptions to this trend of course.
Chris Wells, Andre Brown, Shoon Greene, Cedric Scott, Steven Jackson, Marion Barber, Deuce McCallaster, Ricky Williams, Emmitt Smith, DeShaun Foster (Haven't seen much footage, but Walter Payton probably too) Brandon Jacobs, Terrell Davis, maybe even Rashard Mendenhall or Johnathan Stewart form last year are all typical slashing north-south backs. Even ESPN top H.S recruit Trent Richardson and ESPN 150 prospects Cierre Wood and Michael Ford somewhat seem to be north-south slashing guys.
But of course Tom Luginbill has nothing but praise for these Non Melanin challenged backs.
McGuffie, Rex Burkhead, Wegher, Ben Bowen and somewhat Trumpy seem to be a mix of jump cutter and slashing style. John Howell, Cory McCaffrey of last year (and Danny Woodhead too from what I've seen) are more typical small scat-backs.
Personally I like the guys who can make that intial cut to the hole and explode up field breaking though any arm tackle and use angles to get the most out of their yards. These guys are more consistent moving the chains. If you also have great speed this style is certainly more effective IMO; because after your explosion to the hole you can use your vision and speed to take it the distance. If you make adjust your cutting style to both types like McGuffie, Wegher, Burkhead and somewhat Ben Bowen it makes you an INCREDIBLE PROSPECT because each style can be more effective in certain situations.
Riddlewire
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It's important to note that many of the fastest white players are buried long before they even have a chance to show off their speed. This process starts in the high school-college transition. The best current example is Hunter Furr. Furr has a claimed "high 4.2" 40 time to his credit and an official 4.32 (as well as a 10.42 100M time). But, as a recent Scout article revealed:
Hunter is faster than every player North Carolina recruited this year. And he played his entire high school career as a tailback. So Butch Davis wants to use him as a gunner (euphemism for "cannon fodder")?
After four years of special teams and 'blocking fullback', what do you think that will do to his speed? Even if he maintains it, he's not likely to become a noteworthy star playing special teams for the Tar Heels. The only way he'll ever see the NFL combine is through his TV set.
And Hunter is one of the lucky ones. What about all the white high school players who can run in the 4.2s, yet can only get a scholarship to North Dakota Bible College? Take Sam Burchyett, for example. A 6'2" WR with official 4.37 speed. Where is he playing college football? Grand Valley State (a good football program, sure, but not one that sends players to the NFL combine).
For every "black speedster" who runs a 4.35 at the NFL combine, there are thirty white players who can do the same. Only they're sitting at home or finishing up their degrees and preparing to enter the working world.
Hunter is faster than every player North Carolina recruited this year. And he played his entire high school career as a tailback. So Butch Davis wants to use him as a gunner (euphemism for "cannon fodder")?
After four years of special teams and 'blocking fullback', what do you think that will do to his speed? Even if he maintains it, he's not likely to become a noteworthy star playing special teams for the Tar Heels. The only way he'll ever see the NFL combine is through his TV set.
And Hunter is one of the lucky ones. What about all the white high school players who can run in the 4.2s, yet can only get a scholarship to North Dakota Bible College? Take Sam Burchyett, for example. A 6'2" WR with official 4.37 speed. Where is he playing college football? Grand Valley State (a good football program, sure, but not one that sends players to the NFL combine).
For every "black speedster" who runs a 4.35 at the NFL combine, there are thirty white players who can do the same. Only they're sitting at home or finishing up their degrees and preparing to enter the working world.
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"Personally I like the guys who can make that intial cut to the hole and explode up field breaking though any arm tackle and use angles to get the most out of their yards."
-ToughJ.Riggins
-Best quote I've ever heard about being an effective running back. So many people are dazzled by stupid constant reverse of direction running and ignore the real effective runners. Allusion is not as effective as explosive 10 yard bursts. People see a stupid run by a black person that works one in ten times and score an 80 yrad TD and think its amazing. But nine in ten times the runner loses potential yards when reversing dircetions, how many white people do you see reversing directions and getting caught? Don't even think I've seen it happen once.
-ToughJ.Riggins
-Best quote I've ever heard about being an effective running back. So many people are dazzled by stupid constant reverse of direction running and ignore the real effective runners. Allusion is not as effective as explosive 10 yard bursts. People see a stupid run by a black person that works one in ten times and score an 80 yrad TD and think its amazing. But nine in ten times the runner loses potential yards when reversing dircetions, how many white people do you see reversing directions and getting caught? Don't even think I've seen it happen once.
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
let me correct this to make it more accurate...
NFLdraftscout.com lists Zwinggi's PROJECTED Combine 40 time as 4.36; although i have seen them routinely underestimate white speed.
they wouldn't have to "project" (that means estimate) Mueller's speed if they'd invite the kid and let him run. furthermore, this link has NFLDraftscout listing his projected 40 time as 4.29.
i'd say speed isn't his problem.
ToughJ.Riggins said:
i appreciate the work you're doing here, Tough, and i'm assuming your averages are correct.
another way to describe how far someone can run in .05 seconds... blink your eye. how far can you run? because blinking your eye actually takes longer than .05 seconds.
i once again must insist, though, that average times for white and black players mean absolutely nothing. if it did, one elite athlete's accomplishments (of either color) would be negatived by a slow group. this isn't (at least with black players) how scouts evaluate them.
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
Good info Jimmy. Yes Soelberg was the cornerback I was thinking of. Did Soelberg even get a FA invite?
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Riddlewire said:
That is so insane about Furr it makes me sick; Furr could make a great RB for NC. A low 10.4x is FREAKISH speed. He donates full time to track; with a time like that in H.S; he probably could reach World qualifying time as a teenager. I forget the exact number of that now, but Furr is not all that far off.
Ryan Swope is another tailback speed freak; who Texas A&M may only use as a WR or Safety. I think Swope is even better as a tailback than Furr and he ran a 4.32 at one Combine I believe. Swope ran a 10.5x 100 meter.
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Guest
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The 40 yard dash as an evaluation of football talent is irrelavent to football. It should be used for positioning high school players and young athletes. Once athletes have already proved themselves in college and at a position, what's the point of timing them again? They should evaluate effectiveness.
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
i'm re-posting this, because i think most folks missed it and i feel it's important info.
let me correct this to make it more accurate...
NFLdraftscout.com lists Zwinggi's PROJECTED Combine 40 time as 4.36; although i have seen them routinely underestimate white speed.
they wouldn't have to "project" (that means estimate) Mueller's speed if they'd invite the kid and let him run. furthermore, this link has NFLDraftscout listing his projected 40 time as 4.29.
he won the Division II National Championship in the 60 meters, he's run a 6.31 in the 55 meters, and a 10.2 in the 100 meters. those are "official" track times.
i'd say speed isn't his problem.
i appreciate the work you're doing here, Tough, and i'm assuming your averages are correct.
another way to describe how far someone can run in .05 seconds... blink your eye. how far can you run? because blinking your eye actually takes longer than .05 seconds.
i once again must insist, though, that average times for white and black players mean absolutely nothing. if it did, one elite athlete's accomplishments (of either color) would be negated by a slow group. this isn't (at least with black players) how scouts evaluate them.
let me correct this to make it more accurate...
NFLdraftscout.com lists Zwinggi's PROJECTED Combine 40 time as 4.36; although i have seen them routinely underestimate white speed.
they wouldn't have to "project" (that means estimate) Mueller's speed if they'd invite the kid and let him run. furthermore, this link has NFLDraftscout listing his projected 40 time as 4.29.
i'd say speed isn't his problem.
ToughJ.Riggins said:
i appreciate the work you're doing here, Tough, and i'm assuming your averages are correct.
another way to describe how far someone can run in .05 seconds... blink your eye. how far can you run? because blinking your eye actually takes longer than .05 seconds.
i once again must insist, though, that average times for white and black players mean absolutely nothing. if it did, one elite athlete's accomplishments (of either color) would be negated by a slow group. this isn't (at least with black players) how scouts evaluate them.
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
whiteathlete,
no, sir. Nate Soelberg didn't even receive an invite to an NFL training camp despite his truly elite speed. his is one of the most blatant Caste System snubs in a long history of them.
no, sir. Nate Soelberg didn't even receive an invite to an NFL training camp despite his truly elite speed. his is one of the most blatant Caste System snubs in a long history of them.
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Jimmy Chitwood said:this link has NFLDraftscout listing his projected 40 time as 4.29.he won the Division II National Championship in the 60 meters, he's run a 6.31 in the 55 meters, and a 10.2 in the 100 meters. those are "official" track times.
i'd say speed isn't his problem.
ToughJ.Riggins said:
i once again must insist, though, that average times for white and black players mean absolutely nothing. if it did, one elite athlete's accomplishments (of either color) would be negated by a slow group. this isn't (at least with black players) how scouts evaluate them.
I did that comparing of black vs. white speed position players who had stuck to their NATURAL position (whites who hadn't been beefed up like a Peyton Hillis type; he's a tailback who beefed up a lot and would run faster if he hadn't) about 2 years ago and lost the sheet I wrote the data down on, but I vividly recall saying to myself wow..basically a 20th of a second difference.
But I may have needed a larger sample then just two different years I happened to pick, in this decade. So basically I only took the top 10 whites from both years at their position in their site's rankings.
Also Mean times are actually a more accurate picture, because they aren't thrown off by outliers. Calculating the median 40 times for these players would be more work though and I felt lazy.
I knew Mueller's 40 time of 4.27 at the Scout.com Combine was legit; it's not a fast track, but had no idea he ran a 10.2 100 meter; he would be one of the 5 fastest guys in the NFL with that time. Jamal Charles is the only guy I can think of who's faster ran a 10.18 supposedly. Even Chris Johnson with his 4.24 40 time (had an insane 1.4 flat 10 yard clip) isn't quite as fast as Mueller over 100 meters...wow!
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Another thing is if you compare NFLdraftscout's lower ranked white skill position players to blacks (let's say the 50-100 ranked range) for rank; the whites are "usually" faster, but are "MUCH" more productive compared to blacks at the same level of college play. I would assume also if you'd watch the white skill players highlight video's they'd stand out more too. Proof of a caste system? I think we have a lot of evidence!
Riddlewire
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<tangent>
Why can't they test in pads? I can't think of a single football fan/analyst who wouldn't want to see those results. Even if different teams use different pad brands with different weights, surely the NFL could come up with some 'generally agreed upon' standard pads for testing purposes. They should add in pads testing at the NFL Combine on a trial basis. It can't do any harm. And it just might reveal some important information that has always been hidden before.
(Ok, there's no reason to do the bench test in pads. Everything else should be, though.)
</tangent>
Why can't they test in pads? I can't think of a single football fan/analyst who wouldn't want to see those results. Even if different teams use different pad brands with different weights, surely the NFL could come up with some 'generally agreed upon' standard pads for testing purposes. They should add in pads testing at the NFL Combine on a trial basis. It can't do any harm. And it just might reveal some important information that has always been hidden before.
(Ok, there's no reason to do the bench test in pads. Everything else should be, though.)
</tangent>
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
Yeah the slight Caucasian Quad strength advantage would probably come in handy if they tested in Pads.
Riddlewire
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My strongest suspicion is that it's actually the other way around (not the 'by design' part). On-field performance at the high school level proves that white players are equal with black players when it comes to the speed and agility positions. A quick look at Jimmy Chitwood's thread about Arkansas high school football confirms this. White corners have no trouble shutting down black receivers when both players are in pads. And white runningbacks are usually the most productive at the high school level. Blacks are able to maintain parity through the use of combines, where they are able to perform in non-game conditions.j41181 said:
[And I'm wondering if I misunderstood your post, and you were actually just talking about physical appearances.]
No, you have a point, but I'm talking about OVERALL athletic performance and effectiveness. Whites and blacks are DEAD EVEN. But when you have these drunk idiots running all the shows, it always appears that blacks will look better than whites all the way. I feel it has nothing to do with the equipment or the race color, it has to do with the overall attitude of what the people in charge want to see. There's overwhelming evidence that whites are better than blacks in all factors and levels at some point. Blame it on the drunk idiots who don't see it that way.Riddlewire said:
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
Here is something I just found today. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/columns/story?columnis t=sando_mike&id=3254529 These are top combine performances since 2000.Kevin Kasper in the 20 yard shuttle, Leif Larsen and Mike Kudla with incredible bench press performances, and Eric Weddle with the top 10 yard split. Even with so few whites at the combines they are still putting up incredible performances.
DixieDestroyer
Hall of Famer
Coming out of BYU, OL Scott Young set the NFL Combine bench press record with 43 reps (x 225 lbs). Young currently plays OG for the Browns.
NFL Powerhouse Scott Young
NFL Powerhouse Scott Young