That was a very informative post Deacon. Now, if Mel Gibson had the gumption to produce a documentaryabout the history of slave trading, I would gladly refer to him as Braveheart. Who am I kidding? Just to have an open discussion is nigh unto impossible even if usingonly the sources you cite. But we've already been treated tothe mini -series Roots andthe movieAmistad, both stamped with Hollywood's imprimatur. So, those productions are THE ultimate truth etched in stone.
Frank Rizzo said:
Why don't you google Korey Stringer. Mr. Stringer died of heatstroke. But how can that be since you say blacks can handle the heat. (Disclaimer: I'd never gloat in a man's death whether he's black or white.)
Also, every baseball game prior to 1935 was played during the day. So I'd say the old timers could handle the heat.Edited by: Deacon
Apparently you never heard of Jeremy Wariner...Frank Rizzo said:
2006: Ran third leg in setting indoor 4x400m world record of 3:01.96 with Kerron Clement, Wallace Spearmon and Jeremy Wariner on Feb. 11 at Fayetteville, Ark... 2nd at adidas Classic (20.19)...1st in the 400m Golden League Meeting in Oslo (44.31)...1st at the Michael Johnson Invitational in Waco, TX (44.12)...1st at Meeting Gaz de France Paris Saint-Denis (43.91)...1st at Golden Gala (43.62)...1st at DN Galan (44.02)...1st at London Grand Prix (43.99)
2005: World Outdoor 400m (43.93) champion...World Outdoor 4X400m relay gold medalist (2:56.91)...1st in 400m at USA Outdoor Champs (44.20)...1st in 400m at adidas Track Classic (44.53)...1st in round 1 in Lausanne (44.96)...2nd at Waco, Tex. (45.13)...ranked #1 in world by T&FN...best of 43.93.
2004: Olympic 400m gold medalist (44.00PR, fastest in the world in 2004)...Olympic 4x400m relay gold medalist (3rd leg in 43.98 - 2:55.91)...Olympic Trials champion (44.37)...NCAA Indoor champion (45.39)...NCAA Outdoor Champion (44.71)...NCAA Indoor 4x400m relay champion (3:03.96)...NCAA Outdoor 4x400m relay champion (3:01.03)...ranked #1 in the world by T&FN...best of 44.00PR.
Bear-Arms
Mentor
I've been told the reason why Latin ball players have fast bat speed is because the Spanish made the natives cut down coconuts at a lightening pass for nearly 100 years.
Bear-Arms
Mentor
Frank Rizzo said:
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
Frank wrote: THINK about it. It could only have been a purely business decision: as in, "which one of these two groups can handle the heat?"
you are correct in that it was a business decision, but your question wasn't the one that they asked. a more accurate business query would have been: What cheap source of labor will make us (the slave owners/rich old white dudes) the most long-term profit?
as i noted in my first post on this thread, it is basic science that demonstrates blacks don't handle the heat better than lighter skinned folks, but i notice you didn't respond... hmmm...
Frank wrote: You know many black slaves were worked to death simply because it was easy to buy new one, right?
this is a COMPLETELY erroneous statement of so-called fact. in point of truth, slaves were treated like any other beasts of burden on the plantation; meaning, with only very rare exceptions, that they were well-fed, sheltered well, and taken care of well. if they weren't, they wouldn't have made the boss man any money, and that was the whole point. you don't starve a horse and work it to death if you want to make a profit, it's too costly in time, training, money, etc. to replace, and slaves were much, MUCH more expensive to buy than horses.
however, just like in today's world where there are occasional rare individuals who abuse their animals, there were occaional rare slave owners who abused their slaves. these guys didn't make enough money to buy many slaves because their slaves obviously weren't as productive as other slave owners', so it was far from the norm, and when it did occur it only lasted until the foolish master went out of business.
additionally, poor people couldn't afford slaves. so most of the south, copntrary to what revisionist historians would have you believe, was filled with hard-working poor white folks.
you seem to have gotten too much of your info from non-history propaganda such as Uncle Tom's Cabin as opposed to have researching the matter. i'm sure this is just an oversight on your part, though, because you seem to be trying to discuss this matter intelligently.
you are correct in that it was a business decision, but your question wasn't the one that they asked. a more accurate business query would have been: What cheap source of labor will make us (the slave owners/rich old white dudes) the most long-term profit?
as i noted in my first post on this thread, it is basic science that demonstrates blacks don't handle the heat better than lighter skinned folks, but i notice you didn't respond... hmmm...
Frank wrote: You know many black slaves were worked to death simply because it was easy to buy new one, right?
this is a COMPLETELY erroneous statement of so-called fact. in point of truth, slaves were treated like any other beasts of burden on the plantation; meaning, with only very rare exceptions, that they were well-fed, sheltered well, and taken care of well. if they weren't, they wouldn't have made the boss man any money, and that was the whole point. you don't starve a horse and work it to death if you want to make a profit, it's too costly in time, training, money, etc. to replace, and slaves were much, MUCH more expensive to buy than horses.
however, just like in today's world where there are occasional rare individuals who abuse their animals, there were occaional rare slave owners who abused their slaves. these guys didn't make enough money to buy many slaves because their slaves obviously weren't as productive as other slave owners', so it was far from the norm, and when it did occur it only lasted until the foolish master went out of business.
additionally, poor people couldn't afford slaves. so most of the south, copntrary to what revisionist historians would have you believe, was filled with hard-working poor white folks.
you seem to have gotten too much of your info from non-history propaganda such as Uncle Tom's Cabin as opposed to have researching the matter. i'm sure this is just an oversight on your part, though, because you seem to be trying to discuss this matter intelligently.
GWTJ
Mentor
I don't beleive being black or white makes any difference when it comes to being in the heat. I also don't beleive that any breeding would have any great effect on the sports world. Aren't cornerbacks and wide receivers the smallest guys on the field?
Anyway, back to the heat issue. Here's my experience.
When I was 33 years old I made a dramatic change in my diet for about 8 or 9 months. I became a strict Vegan. That's like being a vegetarian without the dairy or refined sugar. I limited myself to fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes. A very limited diet that I livened up with natural spices.
I spent the first 2 weeks of the diet on the bowl as I adjusted to all the fiber I was suddenly eating. I ate anytime I felt hungry and drank water and fruit juices.
When the summer came I was in full swing with this diet and had adjusted to it completely. Not only did I lose 35 pounds in the process but I found out something else. Your ability to take the heat is positively connected to your diet.
I was playing in an over 30 baseball league on Sunday's at the time. I was a pitcher and I can still remember being amazed that it was 95 degrees out and I wasn't even hot while pitching 9 innings. All my teammates were wrung out before the game was half over but I never felt better.
My body also recovered much quicker than it ever had and I noticed I had a natural stamina that I didn't even have to work for to acheive. I could go to the local YMCA and play basketball for 2 hours and never have a problem. Ten years earlier, when I was 23, the start of the basketball season at the Y would kill me for 2 or 3 weeks until I got in shape. And I was skinney then!
Many people who live in hot climates have similar diets. Virtually no meat or dairy and lots of fruits and grains. I will guess that the white plantation owners ate a richer diet than the slaves did. I will also guess that they felt more uncomfortable in the heat than the slaves did. Of course, I am only guessing.
I can understand why people in third world countries don't get very big. It is actually quite difficult to eat enough calories in a day to sustain yourself when you limit your choices to foods that grow from the earth. It seemed like no matter how much I ate in a day it didn't add up to 3000 calories. I also felt like I was losing too much muscle tissue. I remember looking at a picture of myself and thinking "Yikes, I look like all those veggie geeks in the health food stores."
So I ended my diet by incorporating some dairy and bread and hit the gym. So, while I didn't like the way the diet made me look, I did like the way it made me feel. I also learned a great deal about nutrition and the big lie that is the medical profession.
As for blacks being faster, if you randomly took 100 black kids and 100 white kids, I don't think it would surprise anyone who posts on this site that the black kids would be, overall, faster. But so what, speed and athleticism have nothing to do with one another. When I coached kids in baseball, the one black kid on the team was the only kid that could not figure out how to crowhop. I rolled ball after ball to him and he never did figure out the technique. Other kids had it down pat in a couple of tries and were hot dogging it by the end of practice.
Another form of athleticism is hand-eye coordination. Ever notice that all the best jugglers are white. Check out J.B. Cash's coloumn on spacial cognition. The ability to throw and catch objects and manipulate them so they are in a certain place at a certain time is a skill whites do better than anyone. I have seen croupiers in Atlantic City at the craps tables slide those markers all over the board while making them stop at the desired spot on the felt layout. Manipulating a deck of cards with slight of hand is another talent of whites.
But the one thing thing that whites have over blacks is the ability to figure out the skill and master it.
Example: There is a trple jumper from England named Jonathon Edwards(white). Before the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, the 2 top American triple jumpers(black) had lost to Edwards at a tune up meet. They were upset about being beaten by Edwards and went to their coach. They told him that they couldn't understand how Edwards could beat them. They said, "We're faster and stronger, how is he beating us?"
The coach looked at the video tape and broke it down frame by frame. He finally found out what was happening and this is what he told them, he said "Both of you are moving faster than Edwards down the runway and into your first jump, but both of you lose speed during the jumps. Edwards loses the least amount of speed through the jumps and is actually moving faster than both of you when he makes his last jump. His technique is perfect. He has figured it out."
So, while Edwards may never be able to run as fast as his black competitors, they may never be able to develop the skill or acquire the athleticism necessary to seamlessly run and jump while maintaining their speed as well as their white competitors.
That is why whites dominate pole vaulting and high jumping. The part that has to be "figured out" is what makes the difference. Plus, the speed and jumping ability of whites is greatly underappreciated.
All sports have that element in them. The World Cup is only the most recent sporting event to bear this out.
As to why there aren't more white running backs and cornerbacks and wide receivers. I beleive one of the main reasons is fear. The fear white coaches have of dealing with a position competition between a black and a white player. Of course, this makes the coach a gutless piece of crap, but it seems to me they try to avoid contraversy at all costs. That's why players get slotted to certain positions in baseball as well. That's why the Devil Rays gave Justin Upton so much time to try to learn the shortstop position. Every time they hinted that he should move to the outfield the cries of racism would rear their ugly head. They have finally moved him out of the shortstop position but to 3rd base. It's more important that they avoid accusations of racism than put the player where he belongs. The owners and coaches are running scared.
That's why Bill Cowher wasted 5 years on Kordell Stewart when he should have cut him after two. Not to mention the big contract for Kordell that said, Here's proof that the Steelers aren't racists.
And the more blacks that make up a teams roster, the more the white coaches will be afraid of offending them. All at the expense of the white player.
There is much more to the Caste System but I am done for now.
Anyway, back to the heat issue. Here's my experience.
When I was 33 years old I made a dramatic change in my diet for about 8 or 9 months. I became a strict Vegan. That's like being a vegetarian without the dairy or refined sugar. I limited myself to fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes. A very limited diet that I livened up with natural spices.
I spent the first 2 weeks of the diet on the bowl as I adjusted to all the fiber I was suddenly eating. I ate anytime I felt hungry and drank water and fruit juices.
When the summer came I was in full swing with this diet and had adjusted to it completely. Not only did I lose 35 pounds in the process but I found out something else. Your ability to take the heat is positively connected to your diet.
I was playing in an over 30 baseball league on Sunday's at the time. I was a pitcher and I can still remember being amazed that it was 95 degrees out and I wasn't even hot while pitching 9 innings. All my teammates were wrung out before the game was half over but I never felt better.
My body also recovered much quicker than it ever had and I noticed I had a natural stamina that I didn't even have to work for to acheive. I could go to the local YMCA and play basketball for 2 hours and never have a problem. Ten years earlier, when I was 23, the start of the basketball season at the Y would kill me for 2 or 3 weeks until I got in shape. And I was skinney then!
Many people who live in hot climates have similar diets. Virtually no meat or dairy and lots of fruits and grains. I will guess that the white plantation owners ate a richer diet than the slaves did. I will also guess that they felt more uncomfortable in the heat than the slaves did. Of course, I am only guessing.
I can understand why people in third world countries don't get very big. It is actually quite difficult to eat enough calories in a day to sustain yourself when you limit your choices to foods that grow from the earth. It seemed like no matter how much I ate in a day it didn't add up to 3000 calories. I also felt like I was losing too much muscle tissue. I remember looking at a picture of myself and thinking "Yikes, I look like all those veggie geeks in the health food stores."
So I ended my diet by incorporating some dairy and bread and hit the gym. So, while I didn't like the way the diet made me look, I did like the way it made me feel. I also learned a great deal about nutrition and the big lie that is the medical profession.
As for blacks being faster, if you randomly took 100 black kids and 100 white kids, I don't think it would surprise anyone who posts on this site that the black kids would be, overall, faster. But so what, speed and athleticism have nothing to do with one another. When I coached kids in baseball, the one black kid on the team was the only kid that could not figure out how to crowhop. I rolled ball after ball to him and he never did figure out the technique. Other kids had it down pat in a couple of tries and were hot dogging it by the end of practice.
Another form of athleticism is hand-eye coordination. Ever notice that all the best jugglers are white. Check out J.B. Cash's coloumn on spacial cognition. The ability to throw and catch objects and manipulate them so they are in a certain place at a certain time is a skill whites do better than anyone. I have seen croupiers in Atlantic City at the craps tables slide those markers all over the board while making them stop at the desired spot on the felt layout. Manipulating a deck of cards with slight of hand is another talent of whites.
But the one thing thing that whites have over blacks is the ability to figure out the skill and master it.
Example: There is a trple jumper from England named Jonathon Edwards(white). Before the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, the 2 top American triple jumpers(black) had lost to Edwards at a tune up meet. They were upset about being beaten by Edwards and went to their coach. They told him that they couldn't understand how Edwards could beat them. They said, "We're faster and stronger, how is he beating us?"
The coach looked at the video tape and broke it down frame by frame. He finally found out what was happening and this is what he told them, he said "Both of you are moving faster than Edwards down the runway and into your first jump, but both of you lose speed during the jumps. Edwards loses the least amount of speed through the jumps and is actually moving faster than both of you when he makes his last jump. His technique is perfect. He has figured it out."
So, while Edwards may never be able to run as fast as his black competitors, they may never be able to develop the skill or acquire the athleticism necessary to seamlessly run and jump while maintaining their speed as well as their white competitors.
That is why whites dominate pole vaulting and high jumping. The part that has to be "figured out" is what makes the difference. Plus, the speed and jumping ability of whites is greatly underappreciated.
All sports have that element in them. The World Cup is only the most recent sporting event to bear this out.
As to why there aren't more white running backs and cornerbacks and wide receivers. I beleive one of the main reasons is fear. The fear white coaches have of dealing with a position competition between a black and a white player. Of course, this makes the coach a gutless piece of crap, but it seems to me they try to avoid contraversy at all costs. That's why players get slotted to certain positions in baseball as well. That's why the Devil Rays gave Justin Upton so much time to try to learn the shortstop position. Every time they hinted that he should move to the outfield the cries of racism would rear their ugly head. They have finally moved him out of the shortstop position but to 3rd base. It's more important that they avoid accusations of racism than put the player where he belongs. The owners and coaches are running scared.
That's why Bill Cowher wasted 5 years on Kordell Stewart when he should have cut him after two. Not to mention the big contract for Kordell that said, Here's proof that the Steelers aren't racists.
And the more blacks that make up a teams roster, the more the white coaches will be afraid of offending them. All at the expense of the white player.
There is much more to the Caste System but I am done for now.
White Shogun
Hall of Famer
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 6,285
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
great post GWTJ!
as with most notions, their is a lot of factors that effect the final outcome. very good job!
screamingeagle
Mentor
Here is another example. In the 1936 olympics, a German long jumper gave Jesse Owens advice on how to improve in the long jump. This is always shown as an example of good sportmanship.
Jesse won this event, and I have always felt what gave him the edge was the advice he received from the German.
Jesse won this event, and I have always felt what gave him the edge was the advice he received from the German.
White_Savage
Mentor
Let us clear this up right now.
Whites hold EVERY single record for weight-lifting and strength competition, despite the advantages Blacks reap from hybridization with Whites, despite the fact that American Blacks may produce more freakishly large individuals than Whites because of selective breeding. (When you get down below SHW/unlimited class in say, bench-pressing, Black competition is nill.) A strong White man is NOT an exception.
It is also ridiculous to imagine slave owners breeding blacks for foot speed. That's just not practical or sensible. Sprinting ability appears to be an innate talent of West Africans, just as Caucasians are uniquely gifted with strength. Biomechanically, possessing one of these attributes tends to work against the other. However, it is entirely imaginable that a degree of crude eugenics was practiced by plantation owners who would prefer to obtain the most massive slaves possible for field work, which would explain some of the Bob Sapps of the world, as compared to your average native African.
Frank, I'll put this shortly. If you think a total lack of White players at certain NFL positions is natural, you're insane. Or a Black Supremacist of the worst order. There are enough examples of Whites with good athletic atribues being blown off by the NFL, as well as Blacks like Emmitt Smith who was neither very big nor fast, yet somehow got the job done quite well, to demonstrate how ridiculous the contention that Whites aren't athletic enough to run the ball really is.
Whites hold EVERY single record for weight-lifting and strength competition, despite the advantages Blacks reap from hybridization with Whites, despite the fact that American Blacks may produce more freakishly large individuals than Whites because of selective breeding. (When you get down below SHW/unlimited class in say, bench-pressing, Black competition is nill.) A strong White man is NOT an exception.
It is also ridiculous to imagine slave owners breeding blacks for foot speed. That's just not practical or sensible. Sprinting ability appears to be an innate talent of West Africans, just as Caucasians are uniquely gifted with strength. Biomechanically, possessing one of these attributes tends to work against the other. However, it is entirely imaginable that a degree of crude eugenics was practiced by plantation owners who would prefer to obtain the most massive slaves possible for field work, which would explain some of the Bob Sapps of the world, as compared to your average native African.
Frank, I'll put this shortly. If you think a total lack of White players at certain NFL positions is natural, you're insane. Or a Black Supremacist of the worst order. There are enough examples of Whites with good athletic atribues being blown off by the NFL, as well as Blacks like Emmitt Smith who was neither very big nor fast, yet somehow got the job done quite well, to demonstrate how ridiculous the contention that Whites aren't athletic enough to run the ball really is.
Jimmy Chitwood
Hall of Famer
just an interesting piece of info...
the so-called "reverend" al sharpton decided to not show up for his speaking engagement this week at Bill Clinton's 60th birthday gala in Little Rock, Arkansas. his reasoning? it's too hot. no, really.
sharpton, and event organizers, have re-shceduled the event for later this fall in order to oblige sharpton's delicate nature.
i guess only black afaleets are better able to handle the heat. ha! just kidding.
the so-called "reverend" al sharpton decided to not show up for his speaking engagement this week at Bill Clinton's 60th birthday gala in Little Rock, Arkansas. his reasoning? it's too hot. no, really.
sharpton, and event organizers, have re-shceduled the event for later this fall in order to oblige sharpton's delicate nature.
i guess only black afaleets are better able to handle the heat. ha! just kidding.
I was checking on all this "slave breeding" stuff and I found a source that I think disproves it all. From a play titled "Love on the Plantation"
COLONEL ANGUS (plantation owner) Rufus, come over here boy.
RUFUS: Yes boss?
COLONEL ANGUS: Rufus, I been thinkin', we need some bigger negroes around here so you, as the biggest of my slaves, are hereby ordered to only mate with Ruby, the biggest gal on the plantation.
RUFUS: But boss, I'se mates with all da ladies, you says you wants lots of chillin's don ya?
COLONEL ANGUS: Forget all that boy, I only want big uns!
RUFUS: But boss, my boy Cletus, he the biggest on the farm and he come outa' Clara, and she tiny!
COLONEL ANGUS: You heard me Rufus.
RUFUS: OK boss, you can be shore I'm only gonna breed with Ruby, I'se promise. (wink)
COLONEL ANGUS: Hmmm, I better check with Ruby too.
COLONEL ANGUS: Ruby, I only want you breeding with Rufus, hear me! I only want BIG slaves and you two are the biggest.
RUBY: But Colonel, my biggest boys is with Leroy, and he the smallest one here.
COLONEL ANGUS: Nevermind that Ruby, Rufus only! I don't want any scrawny ones like your Georgie!
RUBY: But Boss, Georgie is yours! And besides I don like Rufus no more.
COLONEL ANGUS: Why not!
RUBY: Last night I caught him behind the shed doin Maurice from behind, YUCK!
[enter the Colonels wife, a huge, ugly, southern belle named Nettie.]
NETTIE: Colonel, what are you up to with the slaves?
COLONEL ANGUS: Uh, honeybud, I'm telling Rufus I only want him to breed with the biggest mammies on the plantation.
NETTIE: Oh well then, (LIFTING HER BLOUSE TO SHOW HER EXPANDING BELLY) Colonel, I got good news for you and I got bad news.....
COLONEL ANGUS (plantation owner) Rufus, come over here boy.
RUFUS: Yes boss?
COLONEL ANGUS: Rufus, I been thinkin', we need some bigger negroes around here so you, as the biggest of my slaves, are hereby ordered to only mate with Ruby, the biggest gal on the plantation.
RUFUS: But boss, I'se mates with all da ladies, you says you wants lots of chillin's don ya?
COLONEL ANGUS: Forget all that boy, I only want big uns!
RUFUS: But boss, my boy Cletus, he the biggest on the farm and he come outa' Clara, and she tiny!
COLONEL ANGUS: You heard me Rufus.
RUFUS: OK boss, you can be shore I'm only gonna breed with Ruby, I'se promise. (wink)
COLONEL ANGUS: Hmmm, I better check with Ruby too.
COLONEL ANGUS: Ruby, I only want you breeding with Rufus, hear me! I only want BIG slaves and you two are the biggest.
RUBY: But Colonel, my biggest boys is with Leroy, and he the smallest one here.
COLONEL ANGUS: Nevermind that Ruby, Rufus only! I don't want any scrawny ones like your Georgie!
RUBY: But Boss, Georgie is yours! And besides I don like Rufus no more.
COLONEL ANGUS: Why not!
RUBY: Last night I caught him behind the shed doin Maurice from behind, YUCK!
[enter the Colonels wife, a huge, ugly, southern belle named Nettie.]
NETTIE: Colonel, what are you up to with the slaves?
COLONEL ANGUS: Uh, honeybud, I'm telling Rufus I only want him to breed with the biggest mammies on the plantation.
NETTIE: Oh well then, (LIFTING HER BLOUSE TO SHOW HER EXPANDING BELLY) Colonel, I got good news for you and I got bad news.....