Impotance of High Jumping

[sunshine]

Recently Black Guy kind of dismissed high jumping as something blacks aren't interested etc..News to me by the way.Anyway.... But there is no better measure on earth for vertical leaping ability and


HJ is one of the purest events in T&F. No starting times,no board to utilize as in long jumping. Plain as can be. There is a bar...leap over it. It breaks itdown to the basic elements thus meauring pure athletic explosion. As in all T&F events there is skill and technique but don't confuse high jumping with the ability to rise and dunk a basketball.


I bring this up because Black Guy apparently thinks dunking a basketball is a better measure for vertical leaping abiity. No way period.. Dunking a basketball requires certain things and not least of them is big long spidery hands and extremely long arms. The vast majority of highlight reel dunkers in the NBA have/had long wingspans. Just look at the likes of Julius Erving and Michael Jordan. They have incredibly long limbs and gigantic hands.. In fact Vince Carter's arms are so long it is freakish. The point is their long wing spans often enhances and creates the illusion they are jumping higher off the ground than they actually are since they are so far above the rim.. Sure they are gifted leapers but true leaping ability is how high one propels themselves off the ground with their legs.


Remember Damon Bailey out of Indiana? He was around 6'2 with shortish arms and not exactly huge hands. Then there was Grant Hill a long armed "dunker" from Duke. But who was the better pure leaper? Bailey but you would never know it from the way the media portrayed them. Bailey had a 39" vertical leap. And I remember one frame showing Hill and Bailey leaping for a ball in an NCAA tourney game and Bailey was nearly a good foot higher off the ground but Hill's long arms made up for that discrepancy.


In the 2004 summer olympics shorter athletes like Stefan Holm and Yelena Slesarenko took home the gold with magnificent displays of sheer leaping ability. No long arms or huge mitts to use as a crutch. Just them and a bar. They got off the ground so high it was AMAZING to watch the explosion as they lifted off the ground. It doesn't get any more elemental than here is a bar leap over it. RAW athleticism folks. When you consider the height of Holm and Slesarenko their feat was even more amazing.

 

[white lightning]

Very good points sunshine and I couldn't agree more.
Blacks in general have longer legs & arms with a shorter
torso.This is very helpful in a sport with explosive
jumping like basketball.Look at Jim Leonhard,he is only
5'8 and can dunk a basketball as good as S.Webb used
to.There are many whites who display extrodinary
leaping ability.Whites will continue to dominate the
high jump for many years i.m.o. Great post sunshine.

 

[Black Guy]

Recently Black Guy kind of dismissed high jumping as something blacks aren't interested etc..News to me by the way.Anyway.... But there is no better measure on earth for vertical leaping ability and


HJ is one of the purest events in T&F. No starting times,no board to utilize as in long jumping. Plain as can be. There is a bar...leap over it. It breaks itdown to the basic elements thus meauring pure athletic explosion. As in all T&F events there is skill and technique but don't confuse high jumping with the ability to rise and dunk a basketball.


I bring this up because Black Guy apparently thinks dunking a basketball is a better measure for vertical leaping abiity. No way period.. Dunking a basketball requires certain things and not least of them is big long spidery hands and extremely long arms. The vast majority of highlight reel dunkers in the NBA have/had long wingspans. Just look at the likes of Julius Erving and Michael Jordan. They have incredibly long limbs and gigantic hands.. In fact Vince Carter's arms are so long it is freakish. The point is their long wing spans often enhances and creates the illusion they are jumping higher off the ground than they actually are since they are so far above the rim.. Sure they are gifted leapers but true leaping ability is how high one propels themselves off the ground with their legs.


Remember Damon Bailey out of Indiana? He was around 6'2 with shortish arms and not exactly huge hands. Then there was Grant Hill a long armed "dunker" from Duke. But who was the better pure leaper? Bailey but you would never know it from the way the media portrayed them. Bailey had a 39" vertical leap. And I remember one frame showing Hill and Bailey leaping for a ball in an NCAA tourney game and Bailey was nearly a good foot higher off the ground but Hill's long arms made up for that discrepancy.


In the 2004 summer olympics shorter athletes like Stefan Holm and Yelena Slesarenko took home the gold with magnificent displays of sheer leaping ability. No long arms or huge mitts to use as a crutch. Just them and a bar. They got off the ground so high it was AMAZING to watch the explosion as they lifted off the ground. It doesn't get any more elemental than here is a bar leap over it. RAW athleticism folks. When you consider the height of Holm and Slesarenko their feat was even more amazing.

Good points. But let me say this. Michael Jordan spent years and years devloping his basketball skills using his great leaping ability to enhance his game. Well if he hadtaken that same leaping ability and praticed years and years working on the high jump he could have been the best high jumper of all time. That man could rise like nobody else. Ive seen Jordan get his head even with the rim on some of his dunks.


So what your saying isthat Stefan Holm can dunk from the foul line like Jordan can then? Or better yet he should be able to do it from even further out since hes so much better at jumping that Jordan is. Dunking a basketball does not require long arms or large hands. I can dunk a ball but I cant palm one due to my small hands. Although I do have long arms. Spud Webb had neither small hands or long arms but he can still dunk cant he?


High Jumping is a measure of jumping ability but dont try to knockJordan. Ive seen Jordan drive the baseline and jump over 7ft Patrick Ewing and dunk on top of him. I dont think a european high jumper could manage that feat. Im not dissing high jumpers but you have to give credit to Jordan and Dr J. Driving into the lane and dunking on people is not as easy as it looks. They just make it look easy.


Edited by: Black Guy

 

[surfsider]

No one is knocking Jordan or Ervin Black Guy. Certainly dunking a basketball(especially in a game situation) and high junping are different skills. To say that Jordan would have been the best high jumper had he applied himself to it is, to be restrained, quite a stretch. Jordan's leaping ability was prodigious but among world-class jumpers he would be just one among many(mostly white) guys that had verticals in the mid 40's. Asserting that Jordan would be the best high jumper is as plausible as suggesting that had Valery Brumel decided to concentrate on basketball he would have been the best ever.
Keep in mind that Stefan Holm at 5-11 and 1/4 has high jumped 7-10 and 1/2 which means he has gotten his entire body over a point that is 23 and 1/4 inches over his head!

 

[JD074]

So what your saying is that Stefan Holm can dunk from the
foul line like Jordan can then? Or better yet he should be able
to do it from even further out since hes so much better at
jumping that Jordan is.

Sunshine can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's
what he's saying. Jordan is 6-6 with long arms and big hands,
which helped him to dunk from the free throw line. Holm is
under 6 feet tall. I've never seen a short person dunk from the
free throw line.

Dunking a basketball does not require long arms or large
hands.

But it helps. You're reaching up to grab the rim, not
propelling your body over a bar. When I see an NBA player
dunk, usually I'm surprised by how little he seems to be
jumping. How high does a guy who's 6-10 with long arms have
to jump to dunk?

 

[bigman]

this is an apples and oranges debate.. basket ball is a game requiring countless skills and talents.. HJing is a honed skill that requires only great jumping ability. some HJers have unheard of leaping ability.. some who are taller (as tall as say Michael Jordan can be competitive will less spring )... my guess is that a great dunker could be competitive in the HJ .. but no guarantee of greatness or total dominance in the event even for a Jordan. ..


Dunking from the foul line is really no big deal.. I am only 6'2" andneverplayed formal bball (only theschoolyard variety)yet at 19 years old I could dunk from about 2 feet inside the foul line.. I never tried the HJ competitively butgetting ones whole body over abar 7 feet requires alot more than jump.


It may seem counter intuitive that a Jordan wouldnt dominate the HJ... and Im not saying so for certain.. we will never know... we do know that other similar scenarios like for instance "Jordan as bigleague baseballer" or "Ed-to-tall-Jones as heavyweight boxer"...started witheveryone(except the people that really know baseball and boxing) thinking that thesewouldbecome super-stars at respectively baseball and boxing. This same no-nothing media herd was shockedwhen Ed-to-Tall Jones was knocked out of the ring by a 6' 210 lb journeyman...





Edited by: bigman

 

[SteveB]

Didn't Brent Barry dunk from the free throw line?

 

[jaxvid]

Isn't the "Impotance of High Jumping" when you smash your testicles on the crossbar and are rendered unable to father children?

Sorry couldn't resist, I make typos too!!!!

 

[Guest]

As a point of interest, I think the world record for high jumping is held by a black guy, Javier Sotomayer (sp?) from Cuba. He's the only man to ever jump 8.'

 

[Guest]

To really see who has the best vertical jump, you'd have first measure the athlete's reach, then measure how high above thathe could reach when jumping. The highest I've ever heard about (I read it on a website somewhere and don't know if it's verified or not) was Donovan Baily the Canadian sprinter at 52 inches. I remember back in the 70s they made a big deal out of David Thompson's 42 inch vertical. I read somewhere that Dominique Wilkins had a 48 inch vertical jump. I'm sure there are some volleyball players out there too who'd be very competitive.


I don't think high jumping is a pure test because it adds a gymnastic component.

 

[Bart]

Jaxvid, you got me thinking about olympic bronze medalist and ten time world champion high jumper Dwight Stones.He wasAmerica'sfavoriteto win Gold at the 1984 Olympics. But he placed out of medal contention, disappointing his many fans.


Men's High Jump Final Olympic Games 1984.


1. Dietmar MogenburgGFR.2. Patrick Sjoberg SWE. 3. ZHA Jianhua CHN. 4. Dwight Stones USA.


There must have been at least one newpaper in the world with a headline like this:


Worlds's best jumpers crush Stones in finals!

 

[surfsider]

Sotomayor was a really high flyer. He tested positive for cocaine on at least two occasions. He was a terrific jumper but I've read articles that express doubts about the 8 footer. He also tested positive for nandrolone.

 

[bigman]

freedom, that vertical number for Bailyis not to be taken seriously... as for the thompson number it all depends on how you measure it... if you measurewith a one foot gather, two feet flat or from a running start... makes a big difference.. myguess would be that from a running start few would get near the vertical of world class HJers thatareunder 6'2"... ,

 

[sunshine]

A few things, sorry about the typo--talk about poorly placed. Funny though. As for Black Guypainting Jordan as a modern day Jim Thorpe as someone mentioned Jordan was a major STIFF as abaseball playerso it would be prudent not to speculate oneself down a toilet by suggesting Jordan was a few practices away from beingthe best high jumper in the world.La la landI mean if Randy Moss tried 100 meters would he become eventual champ? As for dunking from the foul line as someone mentioned it requires some length and besides that is more like a long jump it seems to me so not a good example. As for knocking Jordan in my previous post I was just shining a light on a commonmisconception that dunking a basketball is all leap and nothing else. Face facts big hands and long arms come in handy when dunking. Jordan for sure was a great basketball athlete. Just like Bjorn Borg was a great tennis athlete. Borg was about as blindingly quick as is humanly possible. But T&F events are still the best place to measure pure athletic ability which is why the High Jump,and other T&F events have been around alot longer than all other sports. And Stefan Holm and Yelena Slesarenko proved theywere the best leapers in the world last year. PURE FACT.

 

[Black Guy]

A few things, sorry about the typo--talk about poorly placed. Funny though. As for Black Guypainting Jordan as a modern day Jim Thorpe as someone mentioned Jordan was a major STIFF as abaseball playerso it would be prudent not to speculate oneself down a toilet by suggesting Jordan was a few practices away from beingthe best high jumper in the world.La la landI mean if Randy Moss tried 100 meters would he become eventual champ? As for dunking from the foul line as someone mentioned it requires some length and besides that is more like a long jump it seems to me so not a good example. As for knocking Jordan in my previous post I was just shining a light on a commonmisconception that dunking a basketball is all leap and nothing else. Face facts big hands and long arms come in handy when dunking. Jordan for sure was a great basketball athlete. Just like Bjorn Borg was a great tennis athlete. Borg was about as blindingly quick as is humanly possible. But T&F events are still the best place to measure pure athletic ability which is why the High Jump,and other T&F events have been around alot longer than all other sports. And Stefan Holm and Yelena Slesarenko proved theywere the best leapers in the world last year. PURE FACT.

I didnt say Jordan was a few practices away from being a good high jumper. I said that if he had practiced the high jump for years like he practiced playing basketball when was a kid he could probaly have been a good high jumper but then again maybe not. All I was saying that with his natural leaping ability he probaly could have been good at it. Although his height probaly would have held him back from being able to be a world class high jumper.


Since Track and field is the best show of someones pure atheltic skills this brings to mind a quote froma web page. http://www.newstrolls.com/news/dev/calgold/082800.htm


Here are a few numbers which may help recognize the superiority of black athletes in the U.S. where blacks are about 14 percent of the population. Almost 90 percent of professional basketball players are black. Seventy percent of National Football League players are black. In Great Britain where blacks are fewer than 2 percent of the population, 20 percent of professional soccer players are black. Not only that, but from a world-wide athletic perspective, blacks dominate the boxing arena. It is no surprise that athletes of African origin hold every major world running record from 100 meters to the marathon


and another :


To strengthen the reader's awareness of geographic locale and regional supremacy, no white or Asian or East African runners have achieved the 100 meter run in 10 seconds or less. However, history has recorded some 200 or so runners to have broken the 10 second barrierall of them from West Africa. The truth is that all of the 32 100-meter finalists during the last four Olympic 100-meter runs have been West Africans.


So by what I showed you from the above then black people dominate your major track and field events. So T&F is a truer measure of atheltic skill then that proves the black people are superior athletes since they hold EVERY MAJOR WORLD RUNNING RECORD. Not tomention the black guy from Cuba whoholdsthe high jump mark.


The only events whites dominate are the ones black people dont compete in.


White men can indeed run but not as fast as black men.

 

[Black Guy]

A few things, sorry about the typo--talk about poorly placed. Funny though. As for Black Guypainting Jordan as a modern day Jim Thorpe as someone mentioned Jordan was a major STIFF as abaseball playerso it would be prudent not to speculate oneself down a toilet by suggesting Jordan was a few practices away from beingthe best high jumper in the world.La la landI mean if Randy Moss tried 100 meters would he become eventual champ? As for dunking from the foul line as someone mentioned it requires some length and besides that is more like a long jump it seems to me so not a good example. As for knocking Jordan in my previous post I was just shining a light on a commonmisconception that dunking a basketball is all leap and nothing else. Face facts big hands and long arms come in handy when dunking. Jordan for sure was a great basketball athlete. Just like Bjorn Borg was a great tennis athlete. Borg was about as blindingly quick as is humanly possible. But T&F events are still the best place to measure pure athletic ability which is why the High Jump,and other T&F events have been around alot longer than all other sports. And Stefan Holm and Yelena Slesarenko proved theywere the best leapers in the world last year. PURE FACT.

RandyMoss doesnt have to try to winthe 100 meters ,black people already dominate at that.

 

[sunshine]

Black Guy you are mining the one (dwindling) thread that keeps the notion of black superiority in play with many. The men's 100 meter dash. Lest we forget women are human beings too and the record shows recent white achievement. For example the 2004 100 meter gold was won by a woman. Interestingly white women from other countries have competed well with blacks but white USA gals are generally absent. Which could mislead one to the conclusion that white Euro gals are faster than white American gals. What it really indicates is that in general white women here in the states are not participating per say. If they did the odds would improve that white american women would make more noise in the 100 meters don't you think? I suspect the same holds true for the men but cannot prove it except I darn well know too many white kids veer away from short sprints at early stages.. As for the men according towhitelightning gains by whites are palpable. It will be interesting to follow developments as they unfold in the future.

 

[sunshine]

Sorry to double post but would like to clear up a point made earlier. We hear about vertical leaps and standing broad jumps usually in regards to football measurements like the 40 yard dash. Dustin Fox for instance jumped over 43 inches in the vertical test which is impressive.. I made a reference to it earlier as well..But these are not athletic events.Field events in T&F rely on human momentum thus placing an emphasis on natural human athleticism and activity. In otherwords a javelin thower does a run up before thowing. Adiscusathletetwirls around before flinging the disc. And a high jumper gets a briefrunning start. So just standing still before a thrust, (imagine a shot putter just heaving the rock without moving) is not in the spirit of athletics true nature when applied to the field events. As it stands now the ancients knew what they were doing when they devised these events ages ago. And yes the decathlon/heptathlon is the best way to measure the best athlete. Dec--men, hep--women. At least on land. Swimming has their own version of all around swimmer. The 2004 Summer Olympic decathlon and heptathlon winners were white. In plain language the two best athletes in the world are white. I suspect no reasonable person would go up to that burly Swedish gal who won(Kluft)sp? and question her athletic ability? You would likely land in a trash can faster than you can say good bye. I will be very busythe next few weeks so my posts will be few if any. Thanks for putting up with me.

 

[bigman]

Bguy wrote:>Almost 90 percent of professional basketball players are black.Seventy percent of National Football League players are black. In Great Britain where


Im new here but alot of what the board seems to be about is getting a better understanding of why this is the case... is it possible that just as in the 30s when whites dominated sports and blacks were "caste out" of many positions and opportunities some would wrongly conclude whites were superior in these aspects. Just how much of the dominance that we see is due to nature and how much is due to the various cultural influences and biases that this site seeks to address.. I have no idea but it seems like you are locked in... here are my comments:


>Not only that, but from a world-wide athletic perspective, blacks dominate the boxing arena.


I never knew that (and for good reason)... you must have some information to share about boxing... my understanding of boxing participation and success is that it is in every place dominated by groups of low social and economic standing... the recent ascention of eastern europeans into the sport follows this typical path... Boxing is a very multifacited sport.. it is not so easily pigeon holed ...





>It is no surprise that athletes of African origin hold every major world running record from 100 meters to the marathon


Lets see .. you must have some facts that Im not aware of: here are the "non-sub-saaharan" african record holders:


110H Xian Liu (CHN)


1500M Hicham El Guerrouj (MOR)


20K Arturo Barrios (MEX)


30K T. Seko (JPN)


no need to mention the two athlete events of PV and Decathalon.


The present 100M record holder is under cloud of suspicion for drug use. Of course anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that the 100M as an event has been in a cloud of suspicion since the 80s.


Edited by: bigman

 

[Black Guy]

Also the article that was written in the year 2000 so some things have changed since then

 

[Black Guy]

Im new here but alot of what the board seems to be about is getting a better understanding of why this is the case... is it possible that just as in the 30s when whites dominated sports and blacks were "caste out" of many positions and opportunities some would wrongly conclude whites were superior in these aspects. Just how much of the dominance that we see is due to nature and how much is due to the various cultural influences and biases that this site seeks to address.. I have no idea but it seems like you are locked in... here are my comments:


Big man let me say this. The hypothesis of the board is that whites are being systematically kept from competing in certain sports and that they are just as fast and athletic as blacks.The only reason white people ever dominated track and field was due to segregation. Once black people got a foothold in track white sprinters disappeared from the scene. I have a extemely hard time believing that it is due to conspiracy. Correct me if I am wrong BUT NO WHITE MAN HAS EVER RUN A SUB 10.00 SECOND 100 METER DASH as far a I know of. And if someone has it wasnt more than one or two people. That fact right tell you why whites disspeared from Track and Field running events.





I never knew that (and for good reason)... you must have some information to share about boxing... my understanding of boxing participation and success is that it is in every place dominated by groups of low social and economic standing... the recent ascention of eastern europeans into the sport follows this typical path... Boxing is a very multifacited sport.. it is not so easily pigeon holed ...


Well in the United States black people sure have dominated boxing. There hasnt been a white heavyweight champion in god knows when. There have been white champions no doubt of other divisons but most of the titles are held by black people still. Look at Lennox Lewis hes not even from American but Britian and back when he still boxed he was the best.That shows that black people are on top in boxing world wide.Yeah eastern european are finally starting to catch up to black people after all of these years

 

[Black Guy]

Sorry to double post but would like to clear up a point made earlier. We hear about vertical leaps and standing broad jumps usually in regards to football measurements like the 40 yard dash. Dustin Fox for instance jumped over 43 inches in the vertical test which is impressive.. I made a reference to it earlier as well..But these are not athletic events.Field events in T&F rely on human momentum thus placing an emphasis on natural human athleticism and activity. In otherwords a javelin thower does a run up before thowing. Adiscusathletetwirls around before flinging the disc. And a high jumper gets a briefrunning start. So just standing still before a thrust, (imagine a shot putter just heaving the rock without moving) is not in the spirit of athletics true nature when applied to the field events. As it stands now the ancients knew what they were doing when they devised these events ages ago. And yes the decathlon/heptathlon is the best way to measure the best athlete. Dec--men, hep--women. At least on land. Swimming has their own version of all around swimmer. The 2004 Summer Olympic decathlon and heptathlon winners were white. In plain language the two best athletes in the world are white. I suspect no reasonable person would go up to that burly Swedish gal who won(Kluft)sp? and question her athletic ability? You would likely land in a trash can faster than you can say good bye. I will be very busythe next few weeks so my posts will be few if any. Thanks for putting up with me.

Good points. I never said white people couldnt run or couldnt win events I just said that black people do have dominance. That doesnt a white person cant kick some ass because it has been proven they can and will continue to do so. But at the same time you cant disregard that fact that black people do have the advantage.

 

[White Shogun]

That doesnt a white person cant kick some ass
because it has been proven they can and will continue to do so.

Whites have always had the best armies.

 

[Bart]

Didn't Brent Barry dunk from the free throw line?

I've seen the clip of Barry dunking from the free throw line and the clip of Jordan doing the same. They areroughly the same height andweight. Both step on the free throw lineand take off atabout the same spot. There is a huge difference however, the way the jumps are described by basketball enthusiasts. White guy jumps from line and dunks the ball. But Air Jordan soars from the free throw line defying gravity, proving humans can fly and then descending from space slams the ball hard,downthe throat of the disbelieving hoop, causing the fans to swoon in ecstasy.Actually, if Jordan didn't have his tongue hanging out of hisyap like a thirsty dog,there would be little difference between the two.

 

[white lightning]

Barry not only took off about an inch or 2 further than
Jordan,but he had his warm up jacket on.That would make
him heavier so that he would need more lift.The only
thing that made Jordan's look nice was the double
clutch with the ball which Barry could have easily done.
Chris Anderson just missed on a 2 hand bounce pass
dunk from the free throw line this year.Also the kid
that won the nat'l college dunk contest from Lithunia
dunked from just beyond the line.