Ten Commandments of Racial Suicide

[White_Savage]

QUOTE=guest301]you have not proved the Bible is not 100% accurate...if there are any errors in the bible it's from translating the bible from one language to another for thousands of years and/or from your faulty understanding of it."

Of course I've proven it's not 100% accurate. Even if it really is just a translation error, that is still an innacuracy. I don't think it's a translation error, though, because even a semi-competent translator ought to be able to copy a list of names correctly. So if the geneology is a mistranslation, maybe the bit about God picking out one un-remarkable tribe to set above us other poor slobs is also a mistranslation

And I really want you people to demonstrate where I'm either ignorant of the Bible or have a "faulty understanding" of the Bible. This reminds me of the issue of racial differences-The P.C. thought police smear any White who mentions racial differences as "ignorant", when in reality, there is far more real scientific evidence and logic behind the racialist position.



"The Bible is something you have to read with your mind and heart. You can't understand the love of God when you just read it with your mind and you can't understand the holiness and righteousness of God when you read it only with your heart. Post whatever you want too in responce but I'm done with this thread."

When I evaluate it on the basis of my feelings, I am repulsed by many of the barbarisms of the Old Testament, amused by the absurd laws of conduct "God" purports to hand down, and deeply insulted by the centralization of the Jews and the dead-level hatred addressed at non-Jews.

When I read the New Testament, I find some wisdom,(Jesus was no doubt the greatest of the Jewish philosophers-his barely concealed contempt for some of the more brutal and absurd tenets of Mosaic law,for instance, is brave and admirable) but find other things whose value I find questionable, such as excessive pacifism, ascectism, and withdrawal from worldly issues of importance. And of course, every non-Christian being cast into a lake of fire at time's end.

However, none of that matters because taste is inarguable and feelings are often, perhaps usually, innacurate. In all endeavors of life we realize this. If you try to fly a plane on "feelings", you'll crash-watch the instrument panel. If you try to construct a science on gut hunches, instead of empricism, you'll fail-note Medieval Alchemy. Virtually every person reading this post makes all of their important deciscions using logic and evidence. There is no excuse for not applying the same litmus test of reason and practicality to our religous beliefs, and more importantly, the practical ACTIONS and POLICIES we put forth based on those beliefs. Remember, the root of the argument is that Guest 301 (and certain other Christians) proposes that on certain key issues and understandings, we rely ideology gleaned from a 1,000 year old book instead of reason and pragmatically acting in our own interests. I am sure there are reasonable Christians who find wisdom and comfort in the philosophy of Jesus, but who don't believe we should give blind allegiance to the Jews or Israel or to liberal racial ideologies, who don't reject scientific facts of biological evolution and the understanding it brings to us of how mankind got this way, and who don't believe that all non-Christian religion is evil and that all non-Christians will be burned or simply snuffed out by God.

With these kinds of Christians, I have no real problem, and our only debate hinges ultimately on the matter of taste. It is not to my personal taste to believe that Aryans need all manner of foriegn religous concepts like Original Sin, Messiahs, Salvation, abasing ourselves before dieties, etc. I believe our ancient and native values, natural dignity, and native mythos is healthier for us than a religion where at the very least our people and their heritage are accorded no particular importance. But as I say, it's a matter of taste.

BUT, when you go advocating some kind of real-world policy or action that is frankly crazy, all because of passages in a given book that was "written by God and is infallible" and I demonstrate that it is in fact not infallible and probably not written by God, don't cry foul and resort to insults when your reason fails you.Edited by: White_Savage

 

[Southern Knight]

Religion is the imprisonment of the human mind and spirit.

Ancient man devised his organic mythologies as a way to explain natural phenomena, specifically the weather and natural calamities. Hence we have ancient sun gods, sea gods, thunder gods, etc. These belief sets existed, in some shape of form, in almost all ancient European civilizations.

However, when the native mythologies were appropriated by tyrants and perverted into a means to control the masses, religion then became what it is today -- mind and thought control. Monotheism is a blueprint for totalitarianism.

The Roman church -- from which all Christianity and Christian-based sects arose -- was nothing more than a way for the Roman Emperor to consolidate power over a vast and racially diverse population. The Romans were able to convince their subjects -- either through fear or actual physical torture -- that there is only one god, and that the head of the empire (or the church) is that one god's sole representative in the world. Hence, that leader becomes all powerful.

"Christian love" is an oxymoron. The world has never known torture, hatred, cruelty, and spire the likes of which has been perpetuated across the centuries by "Christians." Modern Christianity, however, has come full circle, and it now exists as a feminized, castrated, limp-wristed theology that turns men into children and slaves. Remember, it's Christian churches that are largely responsible for the importation of apes into our country. And how many X-tians waste millions of dollars and thousands of productive days on "missions" to Afreaka in a ridiculous effort to "minister" to said apes?

See that guy who's telling you to "turn the other cheek," Christian man? He's banging your wife,m emptying your wallet, and eating your bread while you look the other way. Don't be duped. Religion is phony, irrational, irresponsible, and destructive to White society.

 

[White_Savage]

Atheism I'm afraid, is also a sort of faith, and harmful, since it ignores man's tendency to want a religion, his very real psychological need for religions comforts, and the reams of evidence about spiritual and other paranormal phenomena, that if they concerned other phenomena, would be accepted as evidence instead of rejected outright.

Yes, Christianity was brutally inflicted on native Europeans, wiping out many of our traditions-religious traditions SK. But, to give the Devil his due,(so to speak) Christianity gave a sort of unity to the White world, probably prevented it from being taken over by the Islamics, and eventually smoothed some of the rough edges from our ancestors (Though I believe the natural evolution of native philosophy would have done that better, easier, and with less angst and bloodshed.)

While many devout Christers today seem to believe in a great deal of touchy-lovy gobbledy ******* towards other peoples and Jew-worship, for thousands of years millions of Christians did not think Christianity advocated any such thing. The Churches have simply adopted the prevailing secular attitude.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

White Savage, insult to Christians is what started this whole thing, so go figure! I just said you can't debate faith. What I mean is spiritually ignorant (read blind). You believe in what you want, and I'll do the same, but don't tell me I'm inferior because I have faith. You have faith as well, just in something else. Perhaps you can explain the origin of the universe to me since I am so ignorant of reason? Edited by: Colonel_Reb

 

[White_Savage]

White Savage, insult to Christians is what started this whole thing, so go figure! I just said you can't debate faith. What I mean is spiritually ignorant (read blind). You believe in what you want, and I'll do the same, but don't tell me I'm inferior because I have faith. You have faith as well, just in something else. Perhaps you can explain the origin of the universe to me since I am so ignorant of reason?

I don't believe I called anyone inferior. It was you who called me ignorant...since I am obviously not ignorant of the subject matter under discussion, you now invent something called "spiritually ignorant", whatever that means.

Faith is fine when it comes to the unknowable, but as I've said over and over, when it comes to understanding and acting in the real world, proof is required, not "the book says", particularly when it's child's play to show that said book is not absolutely accurate. Yes, I have faith in certain matters where tangible evidence cannot reach, but even there it's based on reasoning out to the best of my knowledge what is good and useful, not on implicit acceptance of something "because".

If you must know, the Universe appears to have exploded from a point of concentrated matter and energy 15 billion years ago, blah blah blah, you know this. There is plenty of evidence to support this, such as the galaxies rushing away from each other at tremendous speed. For further proof that the world was not created 6,000 some odd years ago, you should note that we recieve light from celestial bodies that are much further than 6,000 light years away, I don't want to be a smart ass or insulting here, but you do understand the implications of that don't you?

Of course, at this point you will ask me "Where did the concentrated point of matter and energy come from", a question I can't answer, but then, can you answer in a reasonable fashion where God came from? I don't know about you, but having limited understanding of phenomena is IMO superior to tossing out all understanding of causes and chalking it all up to miracle.

Of course, God COULD have devised all this misleading evidence about how the universe and life got here just to test our faiths in Genesis, but that seems rather a cruel joke. Kind of like tossing people in a burning lake. I for one hope it isn't true and don't understand why anyone hopes the opposite.

 

[Southern Knight]

Atheism is not a "faith" of any sort, nor is it a doctrine or even a "belief"! I'm an atheist but I don't push atheism on anyone.

Modern man does NOT need a religion. As noted in my prior post in this thread, religion is, in essence, ancient man's attempt to understand the physical world. We do that today with satellite images, weather tracking, communications, information compilations, etc.

I spend my Sundays as I wish -- with my family, my children, my cousins, doing yard work, shooting hoops, working at the office if needed. I don't waste 5 minutes listening to some closeted-gay, effeminate, blow-dried ninny prattle on about "Gawwwwwd" and "Jeeeeezus." When you look at the vast majority of X-tian ministers, you realize that these losers are unemployable in any real occupation. (Except that they might be effective as salesmen in multilevel marketing organizations).

Religion is irrational, and a man who professes "faith" in such an easily debunked fraud is probably not a person I would want to deal with on a regular basis. Just my opinion. But it's disingenuous to complain about the current state of American culture and not put some of the blame on the Christians (who are the Jews' handmaidens).

 

[KG2422]

It's foolish to alienate anyone when we are so outnumbered in opinion already. I wish Pugnus was here so you guys would have someone to fight with. Obviously, the Christians who support this sight (Col. Reb especially) are not the kind of Christians you are talking about. Was Martin Luther the Jew's "handmaiden". He authored The Jews and Their Lies. Was the Spanish Inquisition and Reconquista in favor of multi-culturalism and decline? No. And if a Jew is a Christian and caste football supporter ,he's probably not a communist or zionist. The Jews are not the only ones at fault for the state of the West. Not all Jews are responsible for media coverups and biased news (like Rupert Murdoch, Sumner Redstone Jerry Bruckheimer, NY Times etc.). If all Jews were Jewish supremacists bent on our destruction they wouldn't be interbreeding with us at such a high rate. I do believe that many Jews are genetically predisposed to have annoying beliefs that are liberal, communist, greedy etc. Just like many blacks are predisposed to be violent, loud and stupid.

 

[SteveB]

I have refrained from jumping into these religious debates in the past, but I cannot let this go. Do either of you believe there is anything good about Christianity? What about the hundreds of hospitals in the U.S. that were started and are funded by Christian organizations? Or the hundreds of colleges and universities? Or the magnificent artwork from men like Michangelo which were created from inspiration of their Christian faith? Or the Red Cross? Or the Boy Scouts which teaches young men to be self sufficient and good citizens?

How come when there is a disaster, it is Christian churches and organizations that come to the aid of people in need? Maybe I'm wrong, but I have yet to see an atheist or pagan organization at the scene of a flood or other natural disaster handing out food and water to the victims.

I am not proud of the actions of men that have done horrible things in the name of Christianity. Those men did what they did for their own benefit, not for God's. On the other hand, that doesn't make me dismiss the teachings of Christ.

You say that religion is used to control the masses, so are alot of things (money, media, etc). There are many people out there that are easily controlled. If it wasn't Christianity it would be something else, such as materialism, socialism, humanism, etc. That doesn't mean that living by Christian values is a bad way to live.Edited by: SteveB

 

[White Shogun]

Many of you like to say that we can't blame Christianity when bad things are done in the name of G-d.

Well, likewise then, you can't go around praising Christianity everytime a Christian does something good in the name of G-d, either. Maybe they 'misinterpreted' something in the Bible that led them to believe that they should build hospitals, trek on missions to Africa, import illegal aliens, and so on.

Jews and Muslims build hospitals, too. Every heard of Sinai hospital? Or the Red Crescent? Do you think every dollar donated during Katrina came from Christians? Do you think every person who ever worked in a soup line or handed out supplies at a disaster was a Christian?

What about all the hospitals and charities that are built by secular governments and unbelievers? There are plenty of people who donate time and money to charities who aren't Christian. They just don't feel the need to advertise.

What causes people to feel motivated enough to form organizations like PETA and GreenPeace?

And what exactly is an insult anyway? Muslims seem to think a cartoonish drawing of the Prophet is an insult. Some of the folks here on this forum think they've been insulted if someone says the Bible isn't the inerrant word of G-d they think it is.

Isn't it an insult to tell someone they're ignorant and going to burn in hell forever?



NOTE: I have used the spelling G-d to illustrate the idiotic lengths to which true beliefs can alter our everyday actions and attitudes, not because I do not believe in taking God's name in vain. </font>

 

[SteveB]

The point was made that religion (particularly Christianity) served no purpose in modern society. I was not bragging, I was just pointing out some of the good things that Christians do for the benefit of society. You pointed out the Red Crescent and Sinai hospital and those are also religious organizations.

Yes, secular governments build hospitals and run soup kitchens, but they confiscate money from the citizens to do it.

What are the pagan, atheist, or humanist equivalents to the Red Cross? Edited by: SteveB

 

[White Shogun]

Secular:

Americares, American Humanist Association (I can provide you with link to donate to Katrina aid on their site, if necessary,) Mercy Corps, and United Way come to mind immediately. Or, you can browse www.networkforgood.com
and search for a charity or non-profit that suits your particular needs.

Pagan:
Pagan Hospice and Funeral Trust, Pagan Community Fund, and Pagan Aid Alliance, are three with which I am familiar. The pagan community is small, compared to the major monotheistic religions, as are atheism and humanism. But I'm certain as the movement grows and expands that there will be plenty more available.

All these wonderful religious and non-religious charities aside, the question is rarely raised as to why certain people or groups deserve any charity in the first place, but thats another thread.

The argument has been made that all good things come from Christianity, and nothing good from the secular. I posit that there are good works done by both groups. There is no monopoly on good or evil, despite what the progenitors of religion would have us believe.

Edited by: White Shogun

 

[White Shogun]

p.s. the Red Cross was founded as a secular relief organization. The red cross on the flag itself is the reverse of the national flag of Switzerland, which was done in honor of Henry Dunant, the Swiss founder of the IRC.

The symbol of the red crescent was first used during the Russo-Turkish war because the Ottoman's feared the cross would alienate Muslim soldiers. There is also a red star of David, a red lion with sun symbol for use in Iran, and a red diamond called the "Red Crystal," which are all recognized as having the same status as the red cross and red crescent symbols.

Clara Barton, the founder of the American Red Cross was not a Christian, either. She described herself as a Universalist, but her beliefs ranged throughout her life from freethought to Deism.

 

[SteveB]

Really, Shogun. Henry Dunant was also one of the founders of the YMCA, another Christian organization, and a devout Protestant.

 

[White Shogun]

Y = Young M = Mens C = Christian A = Association. By gosh, you're right, SteveB!

Not much of a rebuttal for all the detail I put into my last two posts, but I'll add one more and then let this one go:

The International Red Cross and Red Crescent's stated mission is to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for the human being, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions. Recently, it has finally ended its dispute with Israel with the inclusion of a secular red crystal.

Admittedly, the mere ommission of discrimination based on religion does not necessarily mean that the founders of said organization did not hold religious beliefs themselves. Its just too bad that God himself does not adhere to the same belief of inclusion as his followers.

 

[SteveB]

Not much of a rebuttal for all the detail I put into my last two posts, but I'll add one more and then let this one go:

Brevity is the soul of wit (Shakespeare).

The International Red Cross and Red Crescent's stated mission is to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for the human being, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions.

That sounds closer to a Christian philosophy than a Wotansvolk philosophy.

 

[White_Savage]

"Southern Knight] Atheism is not a "faith" of any sort, nor is it a doctrine or even a "belief"! I'm an atheist but I don't push atheism on anyone."

Atheism is at least technically a FAITH, because it asserts "There is no God", an unprovable. The only faith-free position position is agnosticism, which states "The evidence does not say for certain." But then again, who wants to go around being called an agnostic?

Good for you for not going down the door-door hare krishna route with your beliefs, however, there are a goodly number of atheists in the world who apparently want to push their belief on the world via governmental means a good deal more sinister than a knock on the door at dinnertime.

"Modern man does NOT need a religion. As noted in my prior post in this thread, religion is, in essence, ancient man's attempt to understand the physical world."
We do that today with satellite images, weather tracking, communications, information compilations, etc."

I'm sorry, but this reflects a somewhat shallow understanding of the nature of mythology and religion. Much more important than a cute story about why the suns rises is the need and desire for assistance in this life and hope for a life afterwards-things very few if any humans can live without. Let me say this: If you've ever been in say, a single-engine plane that was having engine trouble at night, you HAVE prayed to something or someone, no ifs ands or buts. To say nothing of the thoughts you have in the dark of the night when you lie there and think of a friend, a parent, a spouse, heck, even a beloved pet, that is now laying in the ground food for the worms, and the sure and certain fact that you will be there someday. To truly embrace and comprehend that darkest of truths, without hope of some light in the darkness is, in my own experience, a slow path to utter madness. But, as I've said before, there is enough ancedotal evidence that cannot be explained away or debunked to convince me that there is at least a chance of a life after death, and a chance of some aid in life.

An Aside...to my Christian fellow Whites-How exactly do you go about the delicate task of saying "Oh merciful God who loves all his children equally, please help our man smite this mouthy ******* about the ring for the greater good of our people's prestige..."? Seems like it it's a whole lot less problematic to ask a diety that is specifically by and for Whites, like Odin or Thor to lend a little help, you know if they're not too busy with the whole Life And Death Struggle to Preserve the Universe Against the Forces of Outer Darkness thing...

Of course, the atheist has no one to ask at all, and must ask almight Utter Nothingness to aid our man...hopefully he'll at least try to send some positive energy towards our fighters.

"I spend my Sundays as I wish -- with my family, my children, my cousins, doing yard work, shooting hoops, working at the office if needed. I don't waste 5 minutes listening to some closeted-gay, effeminate, blow-dried ninny prattle on about "Gawwwwwd" and "Jeeeeezus." When you look at the vast majority of X-tian ministers, you realize that these losers are unemployable in any real occupation. (Except that they might be effective as salesmen in multilevel marketing organizations)."

Yes, Christianity has it's problems, I've outlined a few myself. But arguing by insult and stereotype...thats typical Jewish strategy, is it not?


"Religion is irrational, and a man who professes "faith" in such an easily debunked fraud is probably not a person I would want to deal with on a regular basis. Just my opinion."

I suppose I profess a "faith", though not a Christian or conventionally religous one. I believe there's a chance the universe isn't a case of "life sucks and then you die." So sue me.



"But it's disingenuous to complain about the current state of American culture and not put some of the blame on the Christians (who are the Jews' handmaidens)."

Yes, theres a certain amount of Jew-worship that goes on amongst the Evangelicals these days. But for centuries the church instead painted the Jews as the mortal enemies of Christians. So go figure, as I said, the church mostly just follows the secular trends.

 

[White_Savage]

The International Red Cross and Red Crescent's stated mission is to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for the human being, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions.

That sounds closer to a Christian philosophy than a Wotansvolk philosophy.[/QUOTE]

It is not good to hold some cartoon Viking image of the Old Religion. Hospitality, Generosity, and Fairness, even to strangers, are among the ancient virtues...but like all things, they must be kept within reason.

"Fionn Macumhal was so generous that if the leaves were gold and the waves silver, he'd give them all away. Fionn was so just that if a stranger and his own son came to him to resolve a disptue, the stranger could be assured of a fair hearing."-Irish traditional.

"Nothing to excess"-The maxim of Ancient Greek Virtue.

But it is apparent to me that the White man is so naturally inclined to empathy for other peoples that it easily becomes excessive...that at this particular time he doesn't need to be told to turn the cheek and help the stranger. Instead, in this day and age, he'd do better to look at the virtues of Boldness, Loyalty, and Ancestors. We've already done what we can to help other peoples, we've given them all the material, technology, and knowledge to help themselves if they will. It is apparent they mostly hate us, see themselves in competition, and want to take from/kill us. This being the case, we can no longer afford to give them aid, increase their burgeoning numbers, or keep "turning the other cheek" so to speak. You cannot apply the Law of the Hall when the other man is applying the Law of the Battlefield. My religion is not frozen into exactly the same shape it was 10,000 or 2,000 years ago, and thus can adapt it's core principles to changing times.

 

[White Shogun]

Not much of a rebuttal for all the detail I put into my last two posts, but I'll add one more and then let this one go:

Brevity is the soul of wit (Shakespeare).

The International Red Cross and Red Crescent's stated mission is to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for the human being, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions.

That sounds closer to a Christian philosophy than a Wotansvolk philosophy.

Nothing like a good misquote to keep the debate going. You should have included the REST of what I said, which was that its too bad God doesn't share the inclusive beliefs of his followers. I did not say that the philosophy of the red cross was 'wotansvolk' like. Besides, the one charity that DID try to accept donations meant for white victims of Katrina was shut down by fedgov, UNLIKE the charities that were available specifically to jews and minorities, and yes, even pets!

I also said that no one ever mentions whether people ever deserve or need charity, just that the rest of us give, e.g. Katrina 'victims' that are suing the government because they won't pay for their hotel rooms anymore.

 

[White Shogun]

White Savage, while I concur with your arguments almost entirely, part of your argument rings of the old saw "there are no atheists in foxholes."

I have been in very dire circumstances, both myself and family, and I did not pray. I have been in near wrecks in both plane and car and did not pray. There are atheists in foxholes, I am one.

 

[White_Savage]

Shogun:
I believe you when you say you didn't pray, but...why the Hell not? Any kind of crazy long shot is worth trying when the bells about to end the last round, so to speak.

 

[White Shogun]

Shogun:
I believe you when you say you didn't pray, but...why the Hell not? Any kind of crazy long shot is worth trying when the bells about to end the last round, so to speak.

Okay, you got me with that one.

I guess I'm just a defiant, combative bastard. Least thats what my boss says about me.

 

[Southern Knight]

White Savage writes: "Atheism is at least technically a FAITH, because it asserts "There is no God", an unprovable."

Wrong! In what sense does a disbelief in the unproven constitute a "faith"?

There is no evidence that Bigfoot exists but I cannot I empirically DISprove that Bigfoot exists. Does this mean that I am adherent of the "Asasquatchism" faith? Or does it simply mean that I don't bother myself with imaginary beings?

I can't prove that ghosts or fairies exist -- is my disbelief in those spirits a "faith" of some sort? Of course not. And neither is my disbelief in a spiritual supreme being a faith.

I'm not an "Atheist" (capital "A"). I'm a husband, father, lawyer, good neighbor, hard worker, and decent human being that simply doesn't believe in ancient superstitions. Most atheists consider themselves to be rationalists, meaning that they will believe in things that have a sufficient factual basis, and they will not believe in things that have absolutely NO empirical support (like ghosts and spirits).

 

[White_Savage]

SK:

I will answer you with an article by John Bryant, quite possibly the most intelligent person involved in the pro-White movement and certainly one of the most intelligent humans on the planet. And formerly as hard nosed an Atheist as could be found, now swayed to believe in the possibility of a paranormal by evidence too convincing to ignore, evidence which can only be dismissed out of hand by as dogmatic a prejudice as any held by a Fundamentalist.

My Spiritual Awakening by John Bryant

 

[JB Cash]

Very interesting discussion on religion in this thread. It is my firm belief that all learned men should debate the subject vigorously, argue relentlessly, become bitterly angry at others opinions on the matter and change their minds several times during their lives about the whole thing.

Here is my take on the issue, based upon my background in engineering and an amatuers interest in physics.

If one is to accept the proposition that there is indeed a spiritual existence then some basic questions arise. As I understand the case made by those that believe in religion there is a special force or power that exists that is in some ways apart from our normal existence. This spiritual world (or universe, or dimension) manifests itself in various ways. There is a separate place for the afterlife, a heaven or hell, or some kind of existence apart from the life we know. Of this world we can know very little since it is quite separate from our world. There are however, some cases where the spiritual world involves itself in our world. (For simplicities sake I will call one the "spiritual world" and one the "real world".)

For some the spiritual world is everywhere about us and constantly reacts with us and our world. The most notable of these interactions are in the case of visible spirits, ghosts or apparitions. There are also times when voices or sounds are heard and sometimes objects are levitated or move. Miracles and acts of God or other such interventions are another case. All of these happen in the real world and can be looked at and analyzed.

Apparitions or ghosts are visible to the eye and sometimes a camera. This means they are made up of light. Light is a quantifiable and well understood phenomenon. Light, or more exactly photons, are created when an electron is driven to a higher or lower energy state in it's valence orbit around an atom.

This can be done by various means such as combustion, friction, chemical reaction, atomic radiation, etc. Light is electromagnetic energy at a certain frequency. Therefore for light to be created by spiritual means there must be some sort of interaction by the spiritual world and the real world to create photons.

The same situation exists for sounds or voices,they are merely air being pushed along. For any objects to be moved there must be an effect on the force of gravity. Miracles are a more complicated interaction involving many highly complex forces. Thus the issue becomes how is the spiritual world interacting with the real world? Is it part of our world or does it just enter our world from it's own at certain times?

The issue of the spiritual world entering the real world on an occasional basis is scientifically untenable. We consider our universe a closed system. The laws of thermodynamics insist upon it. To believe otherwise would invalidate most of the scientific principles which have proved out in every other case. It is not IMPOSSIBLE that the spiritual world enters into our world, and effects it in some manner, but it is highly unprobable.

More likely the spiritual world would have to be part of the real world, we just cannot detect or sense it much. This is not too unrealistic since nearly all of the forces we know to exist in the real world have only recently been well understood and measurable. Electricity, magnetism, the strong and weak atomic forces, etc. have only been studied for around 100 years. It is possible that some spiritual force exists and we just can't sense it yet but are able to see it's effects in ghosts, visitations, miracles, etc.

There may be some case to be made for such a force. A spiritual force, should it exist, could even explain some unanswered scientific questions such as a lack of the predicted mass in the universe, now partially explained by "black holes" which are, in my opinion, used to explain too much. Spiritual 'energy" would have to have some sort of mass, like all energy and thus would have to be measurable. The fact that we have not been able to measure it in this way is at least partly damaging to the case for spiritual existence. Also the question of "negative energy" widely predicted but totally lacking in evidence is another possible explanation.

Unfortunately for those that would back such a case for a spiritual world the evidence is extremely thin. One would expect that such an overwhelming force would be easy to detect. Surely a million people die on this planet every year, billions have lived before us, with such spiritual force available why is it only possible to "sense" it in unusual times in odd locations among less then perfect conditions. Why is movement of spirits into the real world fairly easy but we have to "die" in order to pass into the spiritual world?

It is much easier to assign the whole matter to wishful thinking, hallucination, coincidence, or fraud. Which science does, perhaps unfairly.

This discussion has not considered the case of a detailed afterlife complete with a paradise, ruling God or gods, various spirits and souls, a whole alternate universe. That creates many more difficulties. How do you transfer there? Does a spiritual "you" exist that is released at death or a few other times (which also makes the case for the spiritual world being part of the real world)? Why the mystery between worlds? What's the big deal? All these are unanswerable questions, for now. Perhaps someday we may know more.

One thing is for sure, we are located on a small planet orbiting around a mid-sized star, in a middling galaxy among millions of other galaxies that have millions of stars in them. It is ridiculous to think that all that universe was placed there merely to provide a decorative backdrop for our night sky. How we fit into all of that is a question worth considering and discussing.

 

[White Shogun]

It is a fate worse than death, in my opinion, if death brings not non-existence, but an afterlife in which we still do not have any of the answers of our existence.

One thing is for sure, we are located on a small planet orbiting around a mid-sized star, in a middling galaxy among millions of other galaxies that have millions of stars in them. It is ridiculous to think that all that universe was placed there merely to provide a decorative backdrop for our night sky. How we fit into all of that is a question worth considering and discussing.

Given the enormity of the universe, it should surprise us more were we not to exist, than to exist. People are astounded by the universe around them and ask why? Why are we here? Why the universe? I say, why not? Given the number of stars, planets, and galaxies, should it surprise us that at least ONE planet in the multitudes of multitudes of planets has life?

The odds of winning the lottery are astronomical, but someone somewhere hits the jackpot every week.

It is easy for us to discuss the spiritual aspects of life, the theoretical and physiological aspects of it, inured as we are from the reality of the tremendous death and destruction that occur daily on this planet. Everyone knows that millions of children die every year, its a given on a planet of 6,000,000,000 people. Add to that the nature of existence for the 'lower' life forms, where every day one is eligible to be eaten by another, or even just the millions of animals slaughtered every year just to feed humankind. If there is a 'spiritual' world, and beings who can influence existence on this planet, why all the death? Why all the suffering?

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

And to my friend White Savage, and the view that man is happier when he believes in something rather than nothing, I leave this quote:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard ShawEdited by: White Shogun