Negro Leagues

[rob327]

Ok, I have been thinking about this for the past couple of days, so here it goes......


During the Negro Leaugues where it was black vs. blacks, people like Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell, and others. But it seems to me, that their white counterparts during the same era, is it me or is the whites accomplishments diminshed cuz it was the dead ball era, and it seems to me to be the blacks are glorified. i mean it was blacks vs. blacks. and whites vs. whites. I wish both feats could be glorified instead the white counterparts are called racists, and seemd to be not as good as blacks.

 

[Bear-Arms]

I think the argument you're talking about is that because white's played in league with no black players their accomplishments are being diminished. My argument is that these older ball players played in a time where this was the largest white sport in America. If you diminish what they did for the game because they had no black players then you must say the same for the present. I mean today you see Japanese and Latin ball players so should we take away what Hank Aaron did?

 

[Don Wassall]

I don't know that pre-integration white baseball players have been called racist (other than Ty Cobb of course). The dead ball era ended with the rise of Babe Ruth in 1920; MLB was all-white for overanother quarter century after that. There's no question that the feats of the blacks have been glorified and those of whites diminished. A lot of it is mindless repetition of a false assumption, namely that blacks are better baseball players than whites even though the proportion of American blacks in MLB has dropped to just 10 percent and black catchers, third basemen and pitchers are almost non-existent.


For a long time baseball was the main sport played by young white American boys. They were as fanatical about it as kids in the Dominican Republic are now, with the difference being that there was a much larger population pool of white Americans to draw from thanthere are hispanic kidsin the Dominican Republic now. I think a good argument can be made that the all-white teams wouldbest today's teams in head-to-head play. Their fundamentals were far better, and they were just as good if not better all-around athletes.

 

[IceSpeed]

I disagree. There are many good all around players today. However, the emphasis is on the homeruns or taking away homerun catches. Players are encouraged to work on power hitting, upper-cut swings, and "training"(steroids) rather than basics. If Joe DiMaggio played today and put up his same statistics, he would not receive as much acclaim. Players could be a little sloppier at the big league level. I do not think minor leaguers or below are however.
Another thing is mechanics. The science of pitching and hitting has been improved. For example, Nolan Ryan was a much more versatile pitcher than Walter Johnson because he could throw a curveball. Paul Molitor and Wade Boggs probably had better mechanics than Ty Cobb. Ted Williams had a lot to do with improving the science of hitting.

 

[Tom Iron]

Gentlemen,

I'm interested in the subject of the Negro Leagues and I'm going to use this thread to comment on it. Mainly because I'm very suspicious of all the hype. I'm going to look into this in depth. This is my first piece on the issue.

The name of this book on the Negro Leagues is "Legacy of a Monarch." It was written by Jan Sumner about a ballplayer named Byron Johnson who played for the Kansas city Monarchs (one of the good Negro League teams). But Mr. Sumner's agenda wasn't really all that much about Byron Johnson or the Monarchs or the leagues. All Mr. Sumner had in mind was to tear down the Country and White people. Also, he didn't do his homework. Many of his points were either mistaken or outright falsehoods.

He did give a little bit of info. about Satchel Paige. Paige seemed like the prototype Negro. Just a bit before his time. Wild and out of control. If it wasn't for the fact he was a celebrity, I don't think he would have lived all that long.

As always, the book was very light on verifiable facts. That's the main problem I have with the coverage of the Negro Leagues. There were/are no records, Everything is hearsay/hyperbole - the guy was so fast he hit a ball up the middle and got hit by it sliding into second, etc. I'm looking for facts.

This book is Copyright 2005.

A waist of money. No real information. I'll keep you posted.

Tom Iron...

 

[jaxvid]

If you want information on the Negro Leagues go to any library. Virtually 50% of the writing on baseball, and 90% of modern writing is about the Negro Leagues. All of it crap. All produced to further the agenda. It's just mindless pap spooned out to try and fill the minds of impressionable white kids with the cultural marxist dogma.

Some comentaries on the Negro Leagues you might prefer are from a JB Cash article.

"The real truth of the Negro Leagues is so embarrassing that it is amazing that revisionists even bring it up. It is only through the fear that modern pro-black forces exert that the history of the Negro Leagues can even be taken seriously. Josh Gibson: 800 homers. Sure. Why not 1,000? Who will ever know? Most of the games he played in were basically exhibitions against the local team. No one kept any serious statistics. Teams came and went. Players changed teams during the game. It was a joke by any standard of the word "league"Â￾. Baseball vaudeville would be more accurate. But who in the media can risk speaking the truth without the racial police destroying his career?

So we have to endure the tales of the Negro Leagues like they were a black version of the National League and not what they really were, a black version of a softball beer league. Compare this to the stats for the pre-1900 professional baseball leagues. There is a box score for every one of those games. Complete stats can be found on players from the National Association from over 120 years ago! I can tell you to the number how many homeruns Jim O'Rourke hit in 1880 (6). We have no idea how many homeruns Josh Gibson hit in 1941. Of course to criticize blacks for sloppy record keeping is getting too close to other sensitive issues about African Americans so that discussion is off the table also and instead we have to treat the propaganda as truth instead of the pure fabrication it really is. "

 

[Bart]

Some comentaries on the Negro Leagues you might prefer are from a JB Cash article.

Fantastic article! Link below.

Whitewashing Sports History

http://www.castefootball.us/viewarticle.asp?sportID=14&teamID=0&ID=22641

 

[Tom Iron]

jaxvid, Bart,

Thanks. I agree. But I'm going to look into this stuff on my own. There's not much to read other than this stuff praising the Negro Leagues, but when you read it, things slip out with the blacks from time to time and the writers don't catch on. These are the things I'm looking for. Right now I've started the book, "Only the Ball was White." The first chapter tells me something right away. From what I read of those short interviews, all their memeories were good. Blacks were most definitely happier during Jim Crow times than they are now.

If you say that in public now, you'd be in for a hard time, but as is said here, facts are stubborn things.

Tom Iron...

 

[Tom Iron]

I just want to put this in. It's a bit off topic, but I'll put it in anyway. It's a quote taken from a speeech given by Booker T. Washington in the Cotton States Exposition in 1885. The speech itself was called the "Atlanta Compromise."

"In all things that are purely social, we can be as separet as the fingers, yet one as the hand in all things essential to mutual progress."

I put baseball as purely social. Washington I believe was the finest black man this country ever produced and lived easily within the separate society that existed then.

As for Negro Leagues baseball. Apparently, blacks did play integrated ball (I didn't know that) up until 1895-98. At that time, a gentlemen's agreement was entered upon by the owners to exclude blacks from playing organized ball. Of course, it was because White men didn't want to have anything to do with blacks (play with them). It wasn't until 1920 or so that blacks were able to put together their first league. They tried a couple of times beforehand, but their efforts failed.

Interestingly, the biggest name in black baseball ownership was a White guy named Nat Strong who booked (he had access to the fields for some reason) most of the games of the black teams in the Northeast area. If you got on the wrong side of Strong, your team wouldn't get any bookings, no matter how good they were and you'd just have to fold the team.

Tom Iron...

 

[Tom Iron]

Gentlemen,

These are the final standings of the 1921 season. Notice the difference between the majors and the negro leagues in games played. When you use the term "League" when you think of negro ball, you're really stretching the word.

American League National League
Type Name Stat Name Stat
AVG Harry Heilmann DET .394 Rogers Hornsby STL .397
HR Babe Ruth NYY 59 George Kelly NYG 23
RBI Babe Ruth NYY 171 Rogers Hornsby STL 126
Wins Carl Mays NYY & Urban Shocker SLB 27 Wilbur Cooper PIT 22
ERA Red Faber CHW 2.48 Bill Doak STL 2.59
Ks Walter Johnson WAS 283 Burleigh Grimes BRK 136


[edit] Major league baseball final standings
[edit] American League final standings
American League
Club Wins Losses Win %GB
New York Yankees 98 55 .641 --
Cleveland Indians 94 60 .610 4.5
St. Louis Browns 81 73 .526 17.5
Washington Senators 80 73 .523 18
Boston Red Sox 75 79 .487 23.5
Detroit Tigers 71 82 .464 27
Chicago White Sox 62 92 .403 36.5
Philadelphia Athletics 53 100 .346 45

[edit] National League final standings
National League
Club Wins Losses Win %GB
New York Giants 94 59 .614 --
Pittsburgh Pirates 90 63 .588 4
St. Louis Cardinals 87 66 .569 7
Boston Braves 79 74 .516 15
Brooklyn Robins 77 75 .507 16.5
Cincinnati Reds 70 83 .458 24
Chicago Cubs 64 89 .418 30
Philadelphia Phillies 51 103 .331 43.5

[edit] Negro League Baseball final standings
[edit] Negro National League final standings
Negro National League (West)
Club Wins Losses Win %GB
Chicago American Giants 50 27 .650
St. Louis Giants 54 30 .645
Kansas City Monarchs 73 43 .630
Detroit Stars 46 46 .500
Columbus Buckeyes 30 39 .435
Cincinnati Cubans 30 39 .435
Indianapolis ABCs 43 60 .417
Chicago Giants 7 37 .159

[edit] East (independent teams) final standings
A loose confederation of teams were gathered in the East to compete with the West, however East teams did not organize a formal league as the West did.

East
Club Wins Losses Win %GB
Atlantic City Bacharach Giants 34 28 .630
Philadelphia Hilldales 26 16 .619
New York Lincoln Giants 12 7 .590
Brooklyn Royal Giants 1 2 .333
Cuban Stars 12 26 .316
Baltimore Black Sox 2 6 .250

Obviously, everybody can see the difference. The eastern negro league played a lot more exibition type schedule and did a lot of independant barnstorming as you can see by how few league games they played.

In reading this book, what I'm seeing so far is a complete mess. Interestingly, most "writers" of today are completely unaware of this I think.

Tom Iron...

 

[Tom Iron]

This is an excerpt from an article written in the Afro-American (Baltimore black newspaper), 1945 - Written by the black writer, Sam Lacey

"With us, the first black man to break down the bars must be suited in every sense of the word. We can't afford to have any misfits pioneering for us, and for obvious reasons. Unwilling as they are to employ Negro players, they will be quick to draw the old cry: "We gave 'em a chance and look what they did."

The thing about htis is that Mr. Lacey knew his people. He knew that there were plenty of misfits among black people. That's why he said that the first black guy going into the majors had to be top notch.

It's extremely difficult writing about this history because it's so shrouded in baloney. There's very little to sink your teeth into. No records were kept. It all seems to be hearsay. all you get is nuggets. I'll keep at it.

I think we've all seen enough now to know that for the most part, blacks are misfits in anything they do. Interesting.

Tom Iron...

 

[FootballDad]

We appreciate the work you are doing here, Tom Iron. As a KC area resident, it's nice to see a "different opinion" than what the prevailing media throws at us. Especially here, the home of the Negro leagues hall of fame and endless tributes to old Monarch players. I guess they are looking back to the "good old days", since rooting for the Royals is hopeless!

 

[Colonel_Reb]

I'm really enjoying this thread and the tidbits of truth you are gleaning from various sources, Tom Iron.

 

[Don Wassall]

This is an excerpt from an article written in the Afro-American (Baltimore black newspaper), 1945 - Written by the black writer, Sam Lacey

"With us, the first black man to break down the bars must be suited in every sense of the word. We can't afford to have any misfits pioneering for us, and for obvious reasons. Unwilling as they are to employ Negro players, they will be quick to draw the old cry: "We gave 'em a chance and look what they did."

The thing about htis is that Mr. Lacey knew his people. He knew that there were plenty of misfits among black people. That's why he said that the first black guy going into the majors had to be top notch.

It's extremely difficult writing about this history because it's so shrouded in baloney. There's very little to sink your teeth into. No records were kept. It all seems to be hearsay. all you get is nuggets. I'll keep at it.

I think we've all seen enough now to know that for the most part, blacks are misfits in anything they do. Interesting.

Tom Iron...

I've read in the past that MLB had the same concern (Branch Rickey at least) and Jackie
Robinson was carefully selected to be the "pioneer" for precisely those reasons.

 

[Tom Iron]

Gentlemen, I found this in the book entitled "A ball player's career," the personal experiences of Adrian C. Anson. He played for the early Chicago team (180s-90s). Interesting stuff.

Here's just a short paragraph about a few early games.

In 1867, a game was played in which the losers made 91 runs and the winning club 123, of which 51 were made in the last inning. The Chicagos deafeated the Memphis team May 13th, 1870 by a score of 157 to 1 and the Forest City Club of Cleveland four days later beat a local team 132 to 1, only five innings being played. The Forest Citys made in these five innings no fewer than 101 safe hits, with a total of a 180 bases, this being an unequaled record. The Unions of Morrisania were credited with 100 safe hits in a nine inning game in 1866.

I guess they were all in pretty fair shape in those days.

Tom Iron...

 

[Don Wassall]

Gentlemen, I found this in the book entitled "A ball player's career," the personal experiences of Adrian C. Anson. He played for the early Chicago team (180s-90s). Interesting stuff.

Here's just a short paragraph about a few early games.

In 1867, a game was played in which the losers made 91 runs and the winning club 123, of which 51 were made in the last inning. The Chicagos deafeated the Memphis team May 13th, 1870 by a score of 157 to 1 and the Forest City Club of Cleveland four days later beat a local team 132 to 1, only five innings being played. The Forest Citys made in these five innings no fewer than 101 safe hits, with a total of a 180 bases, this being an unequaled record. The Unions of Morrisania were credited with 100 safe hits in a nine inning game in 1866.

I guess they were all in pretty fair shape in those days.

Tom Iron...

Cap Anson is one of the most renowned baseball players of all time. He has been called the sport's first superstar and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1939. Here's his career stats; one thing of note is how few games teams played in the 1870s and '80s:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/ansonca01.shtml

 

[Solomon Kane]

I've learned a lot from this site on the real history of the negro leagues, and how much of a joke they were. Before that, I bought the standard BS about ol' Satch Paige and 'cool papa' bell. The white league drew its talent from afar larger poolof players in a baseball-dominant sportsculture. blacks did not. case closed. the white league was far superior. If there had been some sort of series of playoffs with the negro leagues, the white teams would have eliminated them quickly.




BTW, supposedly there was some barnstorming, off season competition between the white and the black leagues...do we have any records on that?

 

[Tom Iron]

Solomon Kane,

Good question. Yes and no. Some of the White players did say complimentary things about blacks when they played exibitions off-season. But once again, it's a blind alley. There aren't any records of those games. I'm going to have to go up to the city and spend a day in the library looking up old newspaper clipping from those day from both the White and negro papers.

Tom Iron...

 

[Tom Iron]

I just thought I'd put write this excerpt from a black newspaper that appeared in the book "Only the Ball was White." circa 1867.

A ball game in those days was a social occasion as an athletic contest. Announcing plans for a visit by the Excelsiors of Philadelphia to play the Uniques and the Monitors in Oct. 1867, the Broolyn Daily Union Commented:

These organizations are composed of very respectable colored people, well to do in the world... including many first class players. The visitors will receive all due attention from their colored bretheran of Brooklyn: and we trust, for the good of the fraternity, that none of the "white trash" who disgrace white clubs, by following and bawling for them, will be allowed to mar the pleasure of these social colored gatherings.

The Daily Union was less complimentary when the first of the games was played between the Excelsiors and Uniques, possibly because its sportswriter was insulted by one of the Philadelphia teams fans (whom he described as a "pretty rough crowd"). The Excelsiors of Philadelphia defeated the home team, 42-37, in a game marred by argumants and called after seven innings because of darkness. "The contest was in no way credibatle to the organizations," the aggreived writer reported. "In fact it put us in mind of the nines which used to prevail among the White clubs."

The point of my putting this on this board is to highlight that all those years ago, it seems blacks, at least wanted to appear to be good people. It seems they had the same troubles they have now. In a game only concerning blacks, they mangaed to blame Whites for their behavior, but at the same time, they did recognize that the behavior they criticized was bad. Today, blacks think bad behavior is fine. That there should be no criticism of anything they do.

It's interesting reading all in all. But you have to read between the lines constantly.

Tom Iron...

 

[Tom Iron]

Gentlemen, This is an excerpt from an article that appeared in the Waterbury American, (Conn.)30 May 1891, concerning the Negro team, the Cuban Giants.

"The Cuban Giants, representing Ansonia, as they conduct themselves at present, lend no strength to the league. They act as they see fit, paying not the slightest regard to the schedule, the ordinary rules of the game or commn decency. They were secured as a [drawing card] and they have already begun to draw the wrong way. The Connecticut League has no use for them."

I got this from the current book I'm reading, Sol White's "History of Colored Base Ball." Of course, he meant it to show that White people were biased against blacks. But I'm going to write the paper (it might still exist) and and the Waterbury public library and see what I can come up with about this story.

The thing about trying to do research about colored baseball is that so often, you end up in a blind alley. You only get surface statements without any depth. When you look into it, there's nothing there.

Tom Iron...

 

[Don Wassall]

"The Cuban Giants, representing Ansonia, as they conduct themselves at present, lend no strength to the league. They act as they see fit, paying not the slightest regard to the schedule, the ordinary rules of the game or commn decency. They were secured as a [drawing card] and they have already begun to draw the wrong way. The Connecticut League has no use for them."

Sounds much like a description of today's NFL, NBA and MLB, except no White writer would have the cajones to write something so accurate.

 

[Solomon Kane]

It's interesting that the author of this book on black baseball doesn't even consider the possibility that the negative description of the black team might be true. If they acted as described--and there is no reason to doubt this description--I hope they dismissed these guys from the league.


TNB did notmake its first appearance in the 1960's apparently.

 

[Tom Iron]

I took this excerpt from the book, "Sol White's History of Colored Base Ball."

To guard against such contingencies, managers, should be careful in selecting players to compose a team. A player of mediocre ability who is a willing and hard worker and easily handled is far better in every respect to a team than one of rare ability with so much self-importance as to create a feeling of antipathy among his fellow players.
It will be found that 80 percent of these self-important players think so well of their individual reputations, that an error or mis-play on their part during a game is liable to make them loose their nerve.
It is the man with the nerve that gets there, but in base ball there are two kinds of nerve. One kind is on the outside and the other is on the inside. For a winner, the inside nerve is the best every time. A "four-flusher" will make all kinds of noise with his mouth, but when it comes time to a test on the ball field, will develop a yellow streak a mile long. That ball player with the nerve on the inside does but little talking about what he is going to do, but just watch the man when it comes to the game depending on quick action and he is invaribly there.
-----------------------

I put this in here because I wanted to show that at one time blacks didn't think the way they do today. Sol White (black player and manager) wrote those words in the 1880s and I don't think there's a man among us who would disagree with him, no matter his color.

Basically, it was after people like Sol White and Booker T. Washington passed from the scene that blqacks started their long spiral downward.

Tom Iron...

 

[jaxvid]

The latest PC crap about the negro leagues is that they had women playing in them. I saw a video about it that was pimping some book about how 3 woman played in the negro leagues.

So um yeah don't they realize that makes the negro leagues look BAD. I mean if Cool Papa bell was hitting his 5000 career homeruns off of women then he don't look so good do he? Funny how the liberal left thinks, or rather doesn't think. Woman = crappy baseball, not enlightened diversity lovers. More fuel to the castefootball theory that the negro leagues were NOT the black version of the Major Leagues but the black version of a beer softball league. Yeah, my wife had to play a couple of times when I got drunk too.

 

[Bart]

The latest PC crap about the negro leagues is that they had women playing in them. I saw a video about it that was pimping some book about how 3 woman played in the negro leagues.

So um yeah don't they realize that makes the negro leagues look BAD. I mean if Cool Papa bell was hitting his 5000 career homeruns off of women then he don't look so good do he? Funny how the liberal left thinks, or rather doesn't think. Woman = crappy baseball, not enlightened diversity lovers. More fuel to the castefootball theory that the negro leagues were NOT the black version of the Major Leagues but the black version of a beer softball league. Yeah, my wife had to play a couple of times when I got drunk too.

Good post. Just ONCE I'd like to read something like this from a nationally known sportswriter or commentator.