Isreal is bombing South Lebanon to f**k!

[devans]

I agree Kaptain.
Let's look at the background to all this. How would Americans react if one of their neighbours occupied their country and behaved like this...

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/isr-summary-eng

Four Palestinian schoolgirls were shot dead by the Israeli army in their classrooms or walking to school in the Gaza Strip in September and October 2005. Raghda Adnan al-Assar and Ghadeer Jaber Mukhaymar, aged 10 and nine, were shot dead by Israeli soldiers while sitting at their desks in UN schools in Khan Yunis refugee camp. Eight-year-old Rania Iyad Aram was shot dead by Israeli soldiers as she was walking to school. On 5 October Israeli soldiers shot dead 13-year-old Iman al-Hams near her school in Rafah. According to an army communication recording of the incident and testimonies of soldiers, a commander repeatedly shot the child at close range even though soldiers had identified her as "a little girl... scared to death". The commander was charged with illegal use of his weapon, obstructing justice, improper use of authority and unbecoming conduct. He was not charged with murder or manslaughter.

 

[Triad]

Interesting article devans,

The Jewish influence on the American Civil Rights Movement is undeniable. Interesting how they treat their minority population back home. The Palestinian people have been subjected to more atrocious behavior over the last 60 years than any other ethnic group in the world. Where is the outrage we saw directed to South Africa in the 1990'?

I watched a Christian program this morning hosted by Pat Robertson full of Israeli propaganda. The entire conflict can be blamed on Hezbollah according to him.

As far as the massacre this weekend:
He went as far as insinuating that Hezbollah blew up the building that killed the 54 civilians Saturday because they have committed acts like these in the past to make Israel look bad. If Israel did in fact blow up the building, it's OK because Israel warned the children to evacute 5 days ago.

 

[screamingeagle]

"The palestinian people have been subjected to more atrocious behavior over the last 60 years than ant other ethnic group in the world"
The Chicago Tribune once had an article about how the "Palestanian" people live in a "refugee camp". They live better than most Americans! Everybody I knew wanted to more to the middle east and become a "Palestanian." It would improve their life! (To become a "palestinian" is easy. Just live in the area for two years, and the UN recognizes you as a "Palestian" with a right to return!)

A for worse atrocities, the brutal treatment of Christians in East Timor by the Moslems will turn you stomach.

 

[Charlie]

Israel gets a $2.9 billion cash grant from the U.S. each year. Egypt, in exchange for making peace with Israel, gets an annual $2B cash grant from the U.S. Total U.S. aid to that part of world, solely due to U.S. support for Israel, is at least $10B p.a. (loan guarantees, aid to the PA, weapon systems sold at and below cost, and no cost, loans later forgiven, lost tax revenue due to tax-exempt status of Israel bonds, lost tax revenue due to Israel being a center of black and gray money laundering, latest generation U.S. weapon systems provided to Israel in turn sold to Israeli customers such as Russia and China, lost U.S. competitiveness due to Israeli industrial spying, etc.).

The U.S. is trying to convince the Muslims, and the world in general, that Western democracy is a good idea. That coalition troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are only there to bring peace and prosperity. That if Lebanon forced Syria out all would be well. (Funny how Israel only attacked when the Syrian military was out of the way.)

In light of this it seems Israel would help the U.S. by showing restraint. Israeli soldiers were attacked. That's fair in the war between Hezbollah and Israel. Israelis kill Hezbollah fighters and leaders whenever the chance arises. O.K.

But killing women and children doesn't play well anywhere. And it's not Israel doing that, it's American taxpayers.

Hezbollah weapons suck? Funding from Iran and Syria is mostly used to fund medical clinics, schools, housing, and food. Hezbollah is effectively the governmental infrastructure for Shi'ites in Lebanon.

And yet even with sucky weapons Hezbollah is doing well against the IDF. The IDF hates close-in fighting where it has no advantage. The best weapons America can provide can't make up for cowardice. Israel can't tolerate casualities.

Fortunately Bill Clinton has offered to die for Israel.

 

[Kaptain]

"The palestinian people have been subjected to more atrocious behavior over the last 60 years than ant other ethnic group in the world"
The Chicago Tribune once had an article about how the "Palestanian" people live in a "refugee camp". They live better than most Americans! Everybody I knew wanted to more to the middle east and become a "Palestanian." It would improve their life! (To become a "palestinian" is easy. Just live in the area for two years, and the UN recognizes you as a "Palestian" with a right to return!)


Here's a video link that is pretty educational:


A for worse atrocities, the brutal treatment of Christians in East Timor by the Moslems will turn you stomach.

1) I'm not sure where you get your information that Palestinians live better than we do but it is just plain false. As if you couldn't tell from the videos on TV, the only modern looking places in the area are illegal (by international law) Jewish settlements. Palestinians live under Jewish rule and the result is 65% unemployment with 75% of the people living below the poverty line.

2) Who Palestine accepts as its own citizens should be up to the people of the country and should be no concern of yours or mine.

3)As far as East Timor I wish you had posted a source, but I will look it up. I'm sure Muslims still persecute christians in certain parts of the world, but that doesn't excuse Israel from doing the same. Christians have very few rights in Israel as you must know. Aslo, 35-40% of Lebanese are Christian but that doesn't stop Israel from bombing the crap out of them. Many Christian neighborhoods have been specifically targeted by Israel.

Here's a video link that is pretty educational:

Palestine - US mediaEdited by: Kaptain Poop

 

[BonnieBlue]

Don't fall into the Israel v. Muslims argument. As a nation, should the interests of either group really affect OUR policies? Oh, and by the by, what was that hot issue that is now conveniently back page news? Immigration.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

excellent point BonnieBlue... we haven't heard much about our "neighbors" from the south much lately. things that make you go hmmm...

 

[devans]

Don't fall into the Israel v. Muslims argument. As a nation, should the interests of either group really affect OUR policies? Oh, and by the by, what was that hot issue that is now conveniently back page news? Immigration.

I agree it is deflecting attention from other issues, but if the "Israel v. Muslims" argument shouldn't affect policy, be aware it does affect your tax bill.
See the post from Charlie above on how much the U.S. spends on keeping Israel the top dog in the region.

 

[Colonel_Reb]

I saw an article on MSN.com yesterday about how porous our Southern border is. I wonder why it took them that long to figure that out. We should keep focused on the immigration/invasion mess that increasingly envelopes us.

 

[Triad]

The Chicago Tribune once had an article about how the "Palestanian" people live in a "refugee camp". They live better than most Americans!

You must be confusing Hurrican Katrina refugees with Palestinian refugees. I've never been to the area or seen how bad it is personally. My only knowledge is through news reports and internet sites. Based on that I don't know of any American who would want to live in a Palestinian refugee camp.Please post a link to this Palestinian refugee resort camp.

Pat Buchanan has an article to day about the Israeli bombing of Lebanon.

Our Moral Culpability for Qana

 

[screamingeagle]

There are some things I have said that have to be explained. I forget that not everyone reads the Chicago Tribune. Before 9/11, they stopped being unbiased and became a shill for the Jihad. The joke was theat the Tribune was the American aljezeera.

During this time the Trib had one article about life in a palestinian camp. I expected to see these people wearing rags, living in tents by mud roads. Instead, we see them living in brick buildings by paved roads wearing good clothes. (The females in my life mentioned that they saw a lot of "Laura Ashley" products in the households. This must mean something.) This place looked like a village not a camp.

These people do not even have to work. The UN along with the US and some private charities provide all the needs. All the Palestians have to do is breath.

By third world standards these people live high on the
hog. They also live better than the poorest Americans. The materialneeds of the Palestinians are being met. In one survey, 70% of the Palestians want to live where they are.

The lesson here is that you should be careful with your propaganda. They were trying to make us feel sympathy for the "refugees" instead they have become the butt of jokes. I am reminded of the story I heard that during the cold war, the Soviets would show films of the rioting in Watts and Detroit. The average Russian thought that these films were fake because the rioters were wearing shoes!

I am running out of space, so I will talk about the issues that have been brought up.

 

[Triad]

Screamingeagle wrote "Instead, we see them living in brick buildings by paved roads wearing good clothes. (The females in my life mentioned that they saw a lot of "Laura Ashley" products in the households. This must mean something.) This place looked like a village not a camp. "
------------------
You "saw" all this detail from a newspaper article?
-------------------------------------------------------

Israel has about 7 million residents and we give them at least $3 Billion per year. There are about 4 million Palestinian refugees living in the area. The UNRWA (primarily through European countries) provides host countries with money to support them about $400 million per year. According to the UNRWA web site:
"Socio-economic conditions in the camps are generally poor with a high population density, cramped living conditions and inadequate basic infrastructure such as roads and sewers."
--------------------------------------------------------
How did we get to the current problem? From Wikipedia:
"In 1950, the Absentee Property Law was passed in Israel. It provided for confiscation of the property and land left behind by departing Palestinians, the so-called "absentees". Even Arabs who never left Israel, and received citizenship after the war, but stayed for a few days in a nearby village had their property confiscated. (Fischbach, 1999, p. 23; p. 39) About 30,000-35,000 Palestinians became "present absentees" - persons present at the time but considered absent (Benvenisti, 2002, p. 201). How much of Israel's territory consists of land confiscated with the Absentee Property Law is uncertain. According to the Israeli Custodian of Absentee Property, it could amount to 70% of the territory...The Jewish National Fund's estimate was considerably higher at 88%:"
-----------------------------------------------------
So about 60 years ago Israel with Western backing kicked out the resident Arabs and confiscated their land. In exchange the Western countries pay the refugee "host" countries money to provide basic services. The reason there won't be peace in the area is because the Palestinians want to return to their land but that land makes up 70- 88% of present Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------

Just Google Palestinian refugee conditions (2.5 million results) and do your own research.

Link

Another Link

 

[Kaptain]

The lesson here is that you should be careful with your propaganda. They were trying to make us feel sympathy for the "refugees" instead they have become the butt of jokes. I am reminded of the story I heard that during the cold war, the Soviets would show films of the rioting in Watts and Detroit. The average Russian thought that these films were fake because the rioters were wearing shoes!

I am running out of space, so I will talk about the issues that have been brought up.

Spare me your lesson and please do some basic research. Your telling us a Jewish owned newspaper is anti-semitic because you saw a whole one article on Palestinian living conditions.

You simply must not be watching our media coverage of the Middle East if you believe that the media is sending us "propaganda" in favor of the Palestinian or Lebanese victims. The very few Israeli deaths almost always garner more attention (sometimes complete with personal stories) than the hundreds or now thounsands of Palestinian and Lebanese deaths.

You've been feeding us nothing but neocon propaganda while we've been giving you facts, numbers, and sources. Please no more "my friend saw some Palestinian wearing Laura Ashley stories" - that defines propaganda to a tee.

How can you even bring up aid to Palestine when Israel gets roughly 10 billion a year? This for a population of only about 6 million - you do the math to figure out how much each Israeli citizen gets.

Did you also know that all US aid was stopped 6 months ago at the order of Israel when Hamas was elected into office?

BTW, what is Israeli doing putting settlements on foreign soil? Any answer for that?

 

[screamingeagle]

The mideast refugee problem should have been resolved years ago. The refugees should have been settled in the new countries and given citizenship there. Instead they are settled away from the general population and not allowed to assimilate.

The "palestinians" live well. Unlike other UN refugee camps, You never hear hear of food shortages or outbreaks of disease. There is a reason for this. They want these moslems alive. The "Palestinians" have all their material needs met, but they are shamed by other moslems because they ran away. In their culture honor and shame are more important than wealth.

The other moslem nation have fought the Isrealis 5 times and lost 5 times. (I dispute Isreal winning the 5th war, the Lebanese war, but that is another issue.) The countries of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and other need to contine the war against Isreal, but losing causes shame. The solution was to create a state called "Palestine" to continue the war. The other nations would give these "palestinians" money and support. The "palestinians" would take the blame for any defeats.

The "palestians' are the pawns in this battle. You have to feel sorry for them.

 

[Kaptain]

Are you suggesting that all of Palestine should have gone to the Jews?

Your doublespeak leaves me with a lot of questions of exactly where you stand.

Who are they supposed to assimilate to?

 

[White Shogun]

The mideast refugee problem should have been resolved years ago.

Well, if you really want to say what 'should have' happened, the Balfour declaration never 'should have' happened.

Still, the question remains, why is what happens between the Palestinians, Israelis, Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, et al, the concern of the United States? Why is money taken fropm my paycheck and sent to people half-way around the world who blatantly do not support this country, it's citizens, or its way of life?

Why is every enemy of Israel automatically the enemy of the United States? Edited by: White Shogun

 

[Triad]

Why is every enemy of Israel automatically the enemy of the United States?

Be careful, you're starting to sound like an anti-Semite.

 

[screamingeagle]

persecution of Christians by Moslems:

A good place to start is the book From the place of the Dead by arnold S. Kohen. This is the story of epic struggles of Bishop Belo of East Timor. Belo is a rarity- A nobel peace prize winner who is non-violent!

Another source is the internet site Jihad watch. It has many good articles and links.

I wish the Pope would speak out more forcfully on this issue. Maybe he will in the future.

I also wish George W. Bush would speak out on this issue. he is the one who claims that he is "Born again" and has a personal relationship with God. This might upset his Saudi Friends. I guess oil money is more important than faith to GWB.

 

[devans]

I wonder how many of the 1,000 Lebanese killed in the recent bombing and shelling are Christians? Who is killing them?

Not that it matters that much to me. I'm against people getting blown up in their own homes, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Moslem, or whatever.

The majority of Israeli casualties have been Soldiers. I think Hezbollah have been the more accuate with their targeting so far. I'm not saying that their bombing of Israeli Cities is OK, but it bears no comparison to the levelling of towns and villages that the Israeli State is doing.

 

[screamingeagle]

Quick notes:
I will never again say that the UN and other agencies have given, at least, an exceptable level of material supplies to the moslem refugees and their decendanat. It seems to have touched a raw nerve.

Countries like Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are enimies of Isreal, but considered friendly to us. It can be debated that these countries are as not friendly as we would like.

The quickest way to stop the Isreali bombings is to have the mighty Hezbollah air force shoot down Israli aircraft. What? No air force? Cultures that pray 5 times a day and take one month of the year to fast during the day cannot maintain an air force and modern society. They will be put in the scrap heap of history.

The quickest way for the war to end is for Hezbollah to uncondictionally surrender and turn over all their weapons. Oddly, no has asked them to do so.

In news reports, when they saw "Civilians" I interpret that as being moslems. No one cares if Moslem human shields die. Lately they have mention Christian deaths. I am getting worried.

 

[Bart]

Quick notes:
.
The quickest way to stop the Isreali bombings is to have the mighty Hezbollah air force shoot down Israli aircraft. What? No air force? Cultures that pray 5 times a day and take one month of the year to fast during the day cannot maintain an air force and modern society. They will be put in the scrap heap of history.

What is with you? Do you know anything about the Lebanese other than talking points. That country was known as the Pearl of the Mideast. That is of course before Israel began slaughtering them over the past decades. Those people don't deserve to have their buildings, homes, hospitals, schools and infrastructure demolished so savagely and ruthlessly. The Israeli's are turning the country into a pile of rubble. Don't give me this terrorist crap! Every hospital, nusrsery, farm, fruit stand, building or school yard is a hot bed of terrorism??


Have you seen the pictures of the children routinely maimed and killed by bombs, napalm and all manner of weaponry? Future terrorists no doubt?!


Do you know the history of that country? If you think they are a bunch of backward , stone age goat herders who do nothing all day but pray to Mecca you're sadly mistaken. And yes, many of the people blown to bits are-were Christians.

 

[Don Wassall]

Maybe this article will counteract a smidgen of the propaganda emanating from Fox "News," but I doubt it:
Paradise Lost


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14068.htm


Robert Fisk's elegy for Beirut

07/19/06 "The Independent' -- -- Elegant buildings lie in ruins. The heady scent of gardenias gives way to the acrid stench of bombed-out oil installations. And everywhere terrified people are scrambling to get out of a city that seems tragically doomed to chaos and destruction. As Beirut - 'the Paris of the East' - is defiled yet again

In the year 551, the magnificent, wealthy city of Berytus - headquarters of the imperial East Mediterranean Roman fleet - was struck by a massive earthquake. In its aftermath, the sea withdrew several miles and the survivors - ancestors of the present-day Lebanese - walked out on the sands to loot the long-sunken merchant ships revealed in front of them.

That was when a tidal wall higher than a tsunami returned to swamp the city and kill them all. So savagely was the old Beirut damaged that the Emperor Justinian sent gold from Constantinople as compensation to every family left alive.

How does this happen to Beirut? For 30 years, I've watched this place die and then rise from the grave and then die again, its apartment blocks pitted with so many bullets they looked like Irish lace, its people massacring each other.

I lived here through 15 years of civil war that took 150,000 lives, and two Israeli invasions and years of Israeli bombardments that cost the lives of a further 20,000 of its people. I have seen them armless, legless, headless, knifed, bombed and splashed across the walls of houses. Yet they are a fine, educated, moral people whose generosity amazes every foreigner, whose gentleness puts any Westerner to shame, and whose suffering we almost always ignore.

They look like us, the people of Beirut. They have light-coloured skin and speak beautiful English and French. They travel the world. Their women are gorgeous and their food exquisite. But what are we saying of their fate today as the Israelis - in some of their cruellest attacks on this city and the surrounding countryside - tear them from their homes, bomb them on river bridges, cut them off from food and water and electricity? We say that they started this latest war, and we compare their appalling casualties - 240 in all of Lebanon by last night - with Israel's 24 dead, as if the figures are the same.

And then, most disgraceful of all, we leave the Lebanese to their fate like a diseased people and spend our time evacuating our precious foreigners while tut-tutting about Israel's "disproportionate" response to the capture of its soldiers by Hizbollah.

I walked through the deserted city centre of Beirut yesterday and it reminded more than ever of a film lot, a place of dreams too beautiful to last, a phoenix from the ashes of civil war whose plumage was so brightly coloured that it blinded its own people. This part of the city - once a Dresden of ruins - was rebuilt by Rafiq Hariri, the prime minister who was murdered scarcely a mile away on 14 February last year.

The wreckage of that bomb blast, an awful precursor to the present war in which his inheritance is being vandalised by the Israelis, still stands beside the Mediterranean, waiting for the last UN investigator to look for clues to the assassination - an investigator who has long ago abandoned this besieged city for the safety of Cyprus.

© 2006 Independent News and Media Limited
In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. Information Clearing House has no affiliation whatsoever with the originator of this article nor is Information ClearingHouse endorsed or sponsored by the originator.)
And for faithful viewers of Fox "News" I recommend this:

If Fox News Had Been Around Throughout History
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1ldyn/id2.html

 

[White Shogun]

Have you seen the pictures of the children routinely maimed and killed by bombs, napalm and all manner of weaponry? Future terrorists no doubt?!

I've been backed into a few corners at work defending the Lebanese, too. I had a pointed conversation with two co-workers when I asked them to explain the difference between using a suicide bomber to blow up a mall and heavy artillery to level a residential neighborhood. Their answer was that terrorists deliberately target civilians, while the military kills them accidently in the course of war. They say that the terrorist commits such acts to 'cause terror,' as opposed to inflicting damage on the enemy or trying to prevent further bloodshed by destroying the infrastructure to make war.

Yet, they are also in agreement with the concept of 'total war,' like the way we waged WW II: Massive carpet bombing with millions of civilian casualties.

I said that Palestinians and others like Hezbollah use suicide bombers and car bombs because they cannot and do not have a military war machine to inflict casualties on the enemy. I imagine if they had tanks and planes they would use them to full effect on Israeli civilian targets, much the same as the Israelis use them on their homes and businesses.

We complain about the barbarism of groups like Al Queda when they deliberately target our civilian population by hijacking aircraft and using them to blow up people. But we don't complain when the Israelis blow up civilians? Its hypocritical, to say the least.

I maintain that war is war and frankly, we shouldn't take sides in that conflict. Or in any other conflict in the Middle East, for that matter.

Unless the Russians or Chinese invade Saudi Arabia, that is.Gotta protect the oil, you know.

Edited by: White Shogun

 

[White Shogun]

Maybe this article will counteract a smidgen of the propaganda emanating from Fox "News," but I doubt it:

I don't know, but I'm not sure we can count on fair and accurate reporting from CNN, NBC, ABC, or especially, CBS, either.

Not to mention the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal...

I get my news straight from THE source for accurate reporting: Al-Jazeera.

 

[Triad]

We complain about the barbarism of groups like Al Queda when they deliberately target our civilian population by hijacking aircraft and using them to blow up people. But we don't complain when the Israelis blow up civilians? Its hypocritical, to say the least.

That's precisely our problem with this area. Our government's hypocrisy and the Israeli double standard. That is why many Moslems despise our country it's not, as Fox News likes to say, because of our freedom and democracy.

There is no difference in the motive of a suicide bomber on a city bus or an F-16 pilot who blows up an apartment building. One admits their motives while the other makes excuses and propaganda.