Is Bolt on Drugs?

white lightning

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
20,684
Well now Jamaica has 4 sprinters running 9.80's or quicker for the men. Bolt Powell, Carter, and Blake. EXplain to me how this is possible from a tiny island. It's not. Now Powell is probably out for the year with the same back problems as Bolt. I don't buy any of this crap. The problem is that Jamaican support track all around the world. They buy tickets to see these events and they have some of Athletics Biggest Sprinting Stars? For that reason, they will continue to cover things up the same way they do with so many American Sprinters.
 

greyghost

Mentor
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
711
i agree completely with every word W.L . its just to much coincidence and points completely towards doping. wada schmada
smiley11.gif
 

white is right

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
10,022
Considering a journeyman Jamaican has now run in non Bolt near world record time. I decided to show "Nestahs" progressions from Wilkipedia.....2004 10.56 2.00 Spanish Town June 12
2005 10.69 0.50 Kingston June 24
2006 10.20 âˆ'1.60 Spanish Town June 4
2007 10.11 1.00 Kingston June 23
2008 9.98 0.20 Lausanne September 2
2009 9.91 2.00 Shanghai September 20
2010 9.78 0.90 Rieti August 29
 

white lightning

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
20,684
Jamaica is on the verge of having5 sprinters in the 9.70's or faster. They are clean and it's all from eating the yams. Yeah right and Mt. Everest is just another mountain. It amazes me how many stupid people actually believe what they are seeing. I don't care if 4 americans ran those times, I would question it. If you tell a lie long enough, it is perceived as the truth.Edited by: white lightning
 

freddie

Guru
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
145
Location
Toronto
This is interesting from the IAAF All-Time table for 100m. Until the start of the 2008 season only 3 Jamaicans: Raymond Stewart (1991), Percival Spencer (1997) and Asafa Powell had gone under 10.00; and only one, Powell, had ever broken 9.96. In 2008 four Jamaicans broke 10.00, in 2009 it was 5, and so far this year the total is 6. The total number of all time Jamaicans under 10.00 is 9. This means that this year's list comprises two-thirds of all Jamaicans under 10.00.
This is therefore not just a reflection of a natural talent pool or a cultural interest - such as the dominance of the Finns in the Javelin (their supremacy has covered many years)-but a result of some recent change.Has Jamaicarecently injected large amounts of cash or instituted any special recruitment drive?In the absence of either we can guess the answer. Edited by: freddie
 

white is right

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
10,022
Jamaica has a national training center. They also have training teams like the MVP team. I think that's where the problem lies. These teams aren't any different then the corrupt US ones like HSI and the Graham camp.
 

nash99

Newbie
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
42
Like Carl Lewis said...until they openly test their athletes for PEDs you have to assume they are all dirty.
 

LoLy

Guru
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Messages
205
Location
FRANCE
Am I the only one to find very suspicious the last Rieti , Italy race?

Nesta Carter improve is PB by .07


Ryan Bailey improve is PB from 10.05 to 9:88: and from 10.09 to 9.88 in 2010 (0.21 improvment !)



Marlo Forsythe improve is PB from 10.16 to 9:95. (0.21 again)




the 400m "altitude effect" is very impressive with this runners !


Edited by: LoLy
 

white lightning

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
20,684
I totally agree LoLy. It's very strange. It reminds me a little of when Tim Montgomery broke Mo's old 100 meter world record many years ago. Very questionable at best. My opinion is that the wind gauge might have been faulty among other things.
 

white lightning

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
20,684
This is big news. The question is what will W.A.D.A. do? It is so obvious what is going on in Jamaica and I don't know how anyone could be so blind to not see it. Where there is smoke, there is fire! From Bolt to Powell to Blake and many of the rest of them. The women look like men and the men look like they are in body building competions. It's a joke with the times they run and many times into a negative wind and on rainy tracks. It's just not possible unless you have those magical yams. Lol. Catch these guys and clean up the damn sport!!
 

white is right

Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
10,022
I recall the same pr disaster for Jones and Tiny Tim when they had off the book workout sessions with Charlie Francis in Toronto in the early 2000's. After two weeks of media scrutiny, the two athletes fled Toronto. Jamaica is pretty remote I can't see Sports Illustrated, ESPN and other press sending reporters into a remote Jamaican village.
 

JReb1

Mentor
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
838
Here's an old 2008 interview:

SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, will you watch the 100 meter final in Beijing?

Heredia: Of course. But the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean.

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners ...

Heredia: ... eight will be doped.

SPIEGEL: There is no way to prove that.

Heredia: There is no doubt about it. The difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.

SPIEGEL: Can drugs make anyone into a world record holder?

Heredia: No, that is a misapprehension: “You take a couple of tablets today and tomorrow you can really fly.†In reality you have to train inconceivably hard, be very talented and have a perfect team of trainers and support staff. And then it is the best drugs that make the difference. It is all a great composition, a symphony. Everything is linked together, do you understand? And drugs have a long-term effect: they ensure that you can recover, that you avoid the catabolic phases. Volleyball on the beach might be healthy, but peak athletics is not healthy. You destroy your body. Marion Jones, for example ...

SPIEGEL: ... five-time Olympic medallist at Sydney 2000 ...

Heredia: ... trained with an unparalleled intensity. Drugs protect you from injury. And she triumphed and picked up all the medals.

SPIEGEL: Are you proud?

Heredia: Of course, I still am. It is still a tremendous achievement, and you must not believe that Marion’s rivals were poor, deceived competitors.

SPIEGEL: This isn’t just an American problem?

Heredia: Are you kidding me? No. All countries, all federations, all top athletes are affected, and among those responsible are the big shoe companies like Nike and Adidas. I know athletes who broke records; a year later they were injured and they got the call: “We’re cutting your sponsorship money by 50 percent.†What do you think such athletes then do?

SPIEGEL: Tell us what you did for your clients.

Heredia: Athletes hear rumors and they become worried. That the competition has other tricks, that they might get caught when they travel. There is no room for mistakes. One mistake can ruin a career.

SPIEGEL: So you became a therapist for the athletes in matters of drugs?

Heredia: More like a coach. Together we found out what was good for which body and what the decomposition times were. I designed schedules for ****tails and regimens that depended on the money the athletes offered me. Street drugs for little money, designer drugs for tens of thousands. Usually I sent the drugs by mail, but sometimes the athletes came to me.

SPIEGEL: With Marion Jones ...

Heredia: ... it was about the recovery phases. In 2000 she competed in one event after another, and she needed to relax. I gave her epo, growth hormone, adrenaline injections, insulin. Insulin helps after training, together with protein drinks: insulin transports protein and minerals more quickly through the cell membrane.

SPIEGEL: Jones was afraid of needles.

Heredia: Yes, that’s why C. J. Hunter, her husband at the time, and her trainer Trevor Graham mixed her three substances in one injection. I advised them against it because I thought it was risky.

SPIEGEL: What kind of relationship did you have with your athletes?

Heredia: Business ties. It was all about levels and dosing. I rarely spoke with Marion. It was done through her coaches.

Part II: How Heredia outwitted the drug testers and became the dealer to the world’s best athletes.

SPIEGEL: Was there a doping cycle?

Heredia: Yes. When the season ended in October, we waited for a couple of weeks for the body to cleanse itself. Then in November, we loaded growth hormone and epo, and twice a week we examined the body to make sure that no lumps were forming in the blood. Then we gave testosterone shots. This first program lasted eight to ten weeks, then we took a break.

SPIEGEL: And then the goals for the season were established?

Heredia: Yes, that depended on the athlete. Some wanted to run a good time in April to win contracts for the tournaments. Others focused on nothing but the trials, the U.S. qualification for international championships. Others cared only about the Olympics. Then we set the countdown for the goal in question, and the next cycle began. I had to know my athletes well and have an overview of what federation tested with which methods.

SPIEGEL: Where does one get this information?

Heredia: Vigilance. Informers.

SPIEGEL: You were once a good discus thrower yourself.

Heredia: Very good in Mexico, but very average by international standards. I had played soccer, boxed and done karate before I ended up in track and field. At 13 or 14 I believed in clean sports. Doping was a crime to me; back then I even asked my father if I could take aspirin.

SPIEGEL: Why did you begin doping?

Heredia: Like all athletes: because others were doing it. All of a sudden, kids that I used to beat were throwing ten meters further. Then I had an injury but I wanted to qualify for the Olympic team anyway. Doping became to me what it is for most athletes: part of the sport. If you train for 12 hours today and your trainer expects you to train for 12 hours again tomorrow, you dope. Otherwise you can’t do it.

SPIEGEL: What did you take?

Heredia: Growth hormone. Testosterone.

SPIEGEL: But you failed to qualify for the Olympics anyway.

Heredia: Yes, but I read anything I could find about medicine, spoke with other athletes, and soon people were saying: Angel knows how it’s done. He knows how to pass the tests. The first athletes began to ask me for advice. That’s how it started, and at some point the trainer Trevor Graham asked me if I could help him. I explained to him how epo works, and I was in business.

SPIEGEL: What qualified you for the role of dealer to the world’s best athletes?

Heredia: My father is a chemistry professor. I love chemistry, and I was an athlete. My role was an obsession. For example, I learned everything about testosterone: that there is a type of testosterone with a high half-life and another that works very quickly. I learned that you can rub it in, take it orally, inject it. It became a kick: I was allowed to work with the best of the best, and I made them even better.

SPIEGEL: And how did you become the best in your world?

Heredia: With precision. You want an example? Everyone talks about epo. Epo is fashionable. But without adding iron, epo only works half as well. That’s the kind of thing you have to know. There are oxygen carriers that make epo work incredibly fast – they are actually better than epo alone. I call my drug “Epo Boost.†I inject it and it releases many tiny oxygen molecules throughout the body. In that way you increase the effect of epo by a factor of ten

Heredia: With precision. You want an example? Everyone talks about epo. Epo is fashionable. But without adding iron, epo only works half as well. That’s the kind of thing you have to know. There are oxygen carriers that make epo work incredibly fast – they are actually better than epo alone. I call my drug “Epo Boost.†I inject it and it releases many tiny oxygen molecules throughout the body. In that way you increase the effect of epo by a factor of ten.

SPIEGEL: Do you have any other secrets?

Heredia: Oh yes, of course. There are tablets for the kidneys that block the metabolites of steroids, so when athletes give a urine sample, they don’t excrete the metabolites and thus test negative. Or there is an enzyme that slowly consumes proteins - epo has protein structures, and the enzyme thus ensures that the B sample of the doping test has a completely different value than the A sample. Then there are chemicals that you take a couple of hours before the race that prevent acidification in the muscles. Together with epo they are an absolute miracle. I’ve created 20 different drugs that are still undetectable for the doping testers.

SPIEGEL: What trainers have you worked together with?

Heredia: Particularly with Trevor Graham.

SPIEGEL: Graham has a lifetime ban because he purportedly helped Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, ****** Gatlin and many others to cheat. Who else?

Heredia: With Winthrop Graham, his cousin. With John Smith, Maurice Greene’s coach. With Raymond Stewart, the Jamaican. With Dennis Mitchell ...

SPIEGEL: ... who won gold in the 4 x 100 meters in 1992 and today is a coach. How did the collaboration work?

Heredia: It’s a small world. It gets around who can provide you with something how quickly and at what price, who is discreet. The coaches approached me and asked if I could help them, and I said: yes. Then they gave me money, $15,000 or thereabouts, we got a first shipment and then we did business. At some point it led to one-on-one cooperation with the athletes.

SPIEGEL: Was there a regimen of sorts?

Heredia: Yes. I always combined several things. For example, I had one substance called actovison that increased blood circulation – not detectable. That was good from a health standpoint and even better from a competitive standpoint. Then we had the growth factors IGF-1 and IGF-2. And epo. Epo increases the number of red blood cells and thus the transportation of oxygen, which is the key for every athlete: the athlete wants to recover quickly, keep the load at a constantly high level and achieve a constant performance.

SPIEGEL: Once again: a constant performance at the world-class level is unthinkable without doping?

Heredia: Correct. 400 meters in 44 seconds? Unthinkable. 71 meters with a discus? No way. You might be able to run 100 meters in 9.8 seconds once with a tailwind. But ten times a year under 10 seconds, in the rain or heat? Only with doping.


Part III: “If he maintains he is clean, I can only answer that that is a lie.â€

SPIEGEL: Testosterone, growth hormone, epo – that was your combination?

Heredia: Yes, with individual variations. And then amazing things are possible. In 2002 Jerome Young was ranked number 38 in the 400 meters. Then we began to work together, and in 2003 he won almost every big race.

SPIEGEL: How were you paid?

Heredia: I had an annual wage. For big wins I got a $40,000 bonus.

SPIEGEL: Your athletes have won 26 Olympic medals. How much money did you earn?

Heredia: I can’t answer that due to the investigations. But let’s put it this way: 16 to 18 successful athletes each year at between $15,000 and $20,000 per athlete. I had a good run. I had a good life.

SPIEGEL: Did you live in the shadows of the sports world, where no one was allowed to see you?

Heredia: No. I rarely traveled to the big events, but that was because of jealousy: the Americans didn’t want me to work with the Jamaicans and vice versa. But shadows? No. It was one big chain, from athletes to agents to sponsors, and I was part of it. But everyone knew how the game worked. Everyone wanted it to be this way, because everyone got rich off it.

SPIEGEL: Which agents do you mean?

Heredia: The big marketers – Robert Wagner, for example – who support the athletes and want to get them into top form because they place the athletes at the track meetings.

The Austrian marketer Wagner, founder of World Athletics Management, wrote last Thursday in an e-mail to SPIEGEL, that he “never doped athletes†or “supported and promoted†doping. And Angel Heredia, the chief witness, sat in an office in New York, an athletic man in a black shirt, still in excellent shape, and wrote down names on a sheet of paper. 41 track and field athletes, he said, were his clients, as well as boxers, soccer players and cross-country skiers. His Jamaicans: Raymond Stewart, Beverly McDonald, Brandon Simpson. From the Bahamas: Chandra Sturrup. A couple of his Americans: Jerome Young, Antonio Pettigrew, Tim Montgomery, Duane Ross, Michelle Collins, Marion Jones, C. J. Hunter, Ramon Clay, Dennis Mitchell, Joshua J. Johnson, Randall Evans, ****** Gatlin, Maurice Greene. Some of those named by Heredia have been caught doping. Others have admitted to doping, while still others deny it.

SPIEGEL: Maurice Greene? The 100 meter superstar Greene is one of the poster athletes of the Olympic movement; he swears he is clean.

Heredia: The investigations are ongoing, but if he maintains he is clean, I can only answer that that is a lie.

SPIEGEL: Can you be more specific?

Heredia: I helped him. I made a schedule for him. I equipped him.

SPIEGEL: Equipped?

Heredia: Yes, we worked together in 2003 and 2004.

SPIEGEL: Do you have receipts?

Heredia: Yes, I have a $10,000 bank transfer receipt, for example.

SPIEGEL: Greene says he spent that money on friends.

Heredia: I know that’s not true.

SPIEGEL: What did Greene, who denies having doped, get from you?

Heredia: IGF-1 and IGF-2, epo and ATP – that stands for adenosine triphosphate, which intensifies muscle contraction.

SPIEGEL: Undetectable for testers?

Heredia: Undetectable. We’ve used ointments that do not leave any traces and that enable a consistently high testosterone level in athletes.

SPIEGEL: Is there doping at every level of athletics?

Heredia: Yes, the only difference is the quality of the doping. Athletes with little money use simple steroids and hope they don’t get tested. The stars earn 50,000 dollars a month, not including starting bonuses and shoe sponsorship contracts. The very best invest 100,000 dollars – I’ll then build you a designer drug that can’t be detected.

SPIEGEL: Explain how this works.

Heredia: Designer drugs are composed of several different chemicals that trigger the desired reaction. At the end of the chain I change one or two molecules in such a way that the entire structure is undetectable for the doping testers.

SPIEGEL: The drug testers’ hunt of athletes ...

Heredia: ... is also a sport. A competition. Pure adrenaline. We have to be one or two years ahead of them. We have to know which drug is entering research where, which animals it is being used in, and where we can get it. And we have to be familiar with the testers’ methods.

SPIEGEL: Can the testers win this race?

Heredia: Theoretically yes. If all federations and sponsors and managers and athletes and trainers were all in agreement, if they were to invest all the money that the sport generates and if every athlete were to be tested twice a week – but only then. What’s happening now is laughable. It’s a token. They should save their money – or give it to me. I’ll give it to the orphans of Mexico! There will be doping for as long as there is commercial sports, performance-related shoe contracts and television
From: PTM2020 Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile
Posted: 5 hours ago
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 86315

4. Teil: “Peak performances without doping are a fairytale.â€

SPIEGEL: So the idea that sports are a fair competition within established rules actually died long ago?

Heredia: Yes, of course. Unless we were to go back to ancient times. Without television, without Adidas and Nike. It’s obvious: if you finish in 8th place at a big event, you get $5,000; if you finish first you get $100,000. Athletes think about this. Then they think that everyone else dopes anyway, and they are right. And you think athletes believe in morals and ideals? Peak performances without doping are a fairytale, my friend.

SPIEGEL: Do you advocate the authorization of doping?

Heredia: No, but I believe we should authorize the use of epo, IGF and testosterone, as well as adrenaline and epitestosterone – substances that the body produces itself. Simply for pragmatic reasons, because it is impossible to detect them, and also because of the fairness aspect.

SPIEGEL: Are you serious: fairness?

Heredia: Yes. Take for example the most popular drug: epo. Epo changes the hemoglobin value, and it is simply the case that people have different hemoglobin levels. Authorizing the use of epo would enable the fairness and equality that supposedly everyone wants. After all, there are genetic differences between athletes.

SPIEGEL: Differences between living things are called nature. You want to make all athletes the same through doping?

Heredia: Normal athletes have a level of 3 nanograms of testosterone per milliliter of blood; the sprinter Tim Montgomery has 3 nanograms, but Maurice Greene has 9 nanograms. So what can Tim do? It isn’t doping with endogenous substances that’s unfair, it is nature that’s unfair.

SPIEGEL: And what would you ban?

Heredia: Everything else that can be dangerous. Amphetamines? Ban them. Steroids? Ban them.

SPIEGEL: Are there still any clean disciplines?

Heredia: Track and field, swimming, cross-country skiing and cycling can no longer be saved. Golf? Not clean either. Soccer? Soccer players come to me and say they have to be able to run up and down the touchline without becoming tired, and they have to play every three days. Basketball players take fat burners – amphetamines, ephedrin. Baseball? Haha. Steroids in pre-season, amphetamines during the games. Even archers take downers so that their arm remains steady. Everyone dopes.

SPIEGEL: Did you produce the drugs yourself, or did you simply procure them?

Heredia: I didn’t have my own laboratory, I had… let’s say access to labs in Mexico City. I purchased and procured the raw materials ...

SPIEGEL: ... from where?

Heredia: Everywhere. Australia, South Africa, Austria, Bulgaria, China. I got growth hormone from the Swiss company Serono. It was never difficult to import it to Mexico, because the laws aren’t that strict. You can easily buy it in pharmacies in Mexico. Whenever a new drug was entering the test phase somewhere in the world, we knew about it and we ordered it. Then I combined substances. Sometimes I produced a gel.

SPIEGEL: Did you ever take the doping testers seriously?

Heredia: No, we laughed at them. Today, of course, it is the testers who are laughing
 

frederic38

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
4,774
Location
france-grenoble
good posts guys
it's getting closer for bolt ...
but it doesn't really matter if they catch him or not, we have enought evidence now
nobody can say bolt is clean now
 

JReb1

Mentor
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
838
Quote of the year. :hail:

SPIEGEL: Can drugs make anyone into a world record holder?

Heredia: No, that is a misapprehension: “You take a couple of tablets today and tomorrow you can really fly.â€￾ In reality you have to train inconceivably hard, be very talented and have a perfect team of trainers and support staff. And then it is the best drugs that make the difference. It is all a great composition, a symphony. Everything is linked together, do you understand? And drugs have a long-term effect: they ensure that you can recover, that you avoid the catabolic phases. Volleyball on the beach might be healthy, but peak athletics is not healthy. You destroy your body. Marion Jones, for example ...

Read the whole article...
 
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
16
Guys, I'm Caucasian. So don't get the wrong end of the stick.

Why can't any other white runner in the 100m get close to
Christophe Lemaitre?.
Could it be possibly be better drugs do you think?.

It has to be questioned.
 

Bk21

Guru
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
300
Location
Dijon - France
the HEREDIA itw is simply enormous! I can't beleive how easy it is to get doped without being caught!
why bother follow sprint after reading this? they are laughing at testers because international cheaters are always one step ahead!, and the best we can have is suspicion..
Why do we wish Lemaitre to beat Bolt or Powell if they are already on a drug cycle every year? will it be a good thing if Lemaitre outpasses Bolt, or will it add him on the too-good-to-be-true list?
 

frederic38

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
4,774
Location
france-grenoble
the HEREDIA itw is simply enormous! I can't beleive how easy it is to get doped without being caught!
why bother follow sprint after reading this? they are laughing at testers because international cheaters are always one step ahead!, and the best we can have is suspicion..
Why do we wish Lemaitre to beat Bolt or Powell if they are already on a drug cycle every year? will it be a good thing if Lemaitre outpasses Bolt, or will it add him on the too-good-to-be-true list?

lemaitre needs to go as far as he can naturally
when we will look at this period in a few years, we will know that he was the best sprinter, because bolt and the others won't get caught, but maybe we will have proof that they are juicing (like maurice greene) or just because it is obvious that they are not clean (because of the high number of athletes caught in the same area, and their incredible performances, that shows there is a doping program there)

even if lemaitre goes to the "dark side", i will still suport him
like i suported kenteris
 

pietro1

Newbie
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
16
have to agree that lemaitre is definitely on ped's also .
but dont care as is nessary to compete with others
and seems like a likeable chap .
it is a pitty that not a honest athlete amongst the elete nowadays .


like article as for once someone speaks with some truth and
not the usual media lying to your face ****e .
 

Shockwave

Newbie
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
18
lemaitre needs to go as far as he can naturally
when we will look at this period in a few years, we will know that he was the best sprinter, because bolt and the others won't get caught, but maybe we will have proof that they are juicing (like maurice greene) or just because it is obvious that they are not clean (because of the high number of athletes caught in the same area, and their incredible performances, that shows there is a doping program there)

even if lemaitre goes to the "dark side", i will still suport him
like i suported kenteris

Lemaitre probably already took it as far as he could naturally when he hit the Pickering/LeBlanc peak of the mid 10.10's. To believe that he's naturally .2-.3 faster than every other elite white sprinter today, including the dirtiest of the dirty ones, is absurd.

Heredia clearly said anyone who runs multiple sub-10's in one season is dirty. Unless one revels in being duplicitous, endorsing this claim means they believe Lemaitre uses. Period. If you believe Bolt is juicing because he's faster than the dirtiest of the dirty, that same standard must be applied to Lemaitre.. and even moreso due to the uniqueness of what he's doing relative to his race.

Also, as far as athletes in the same area, and guilt by association is concerned, Euro EPO-indulging cyclists are the dirtiest drugsters on the planet. You honestly don't think their ne'er-do-well chemists have slithered over to the track and field side?
 
Last edited:
Top