How "we" messure up

White Mike

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Fit the mold
There's a misconception that the NFL drafts the best players. In fact, the NFL drafts the players with the best chance for success at the next level. So the NFL looks for players with specific measurables.


"The measurables are a piece of the puzzle, like the Wonderlic test," said Baltimore Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome. "You can't put too much weight on the measurables - but big, fast guys do play in our league."

The NFL wants productive players like Abbate - but it wants them to fit the prototypes in height, weight and speed. Intelligence, hand size and arm length also come into play at various positions.

So good players like Abbate are shoved down the draft board. All-Americans like Justin Blalock of Texas and Heisman Trophy winners like Troy Smith of Ohio State will probably be nudged down as well.

Blalock started four years at Texas at right tackle and was a three-time All-Big 12 selection. But the NFL looks for offensive tackles that are 6-5, 310. Blaylock is only 6-3, so most NFL teams have moved him inside to guard.

The NFL wants tackles with length. You need long arms and legs to steer the speed rushers coming off the edge. The prototype would be Tony Ugoh, a three-year starter and All-SEC selection as a senior at Arkansas. He goes 6-5, 301 with 36-inch arms. He will benefit on draft day from his measurables.

Arron Sears doesn't fit the prototype. Neither does Tala Esera or Steve Vallos. Sears was a three-year starter and two-time All-SEC left tackle at Tennessee. But he's only 6-3, so NFL teams have moved him inside to guard as well. Also moving inside will be Esera, an All-WAC left tackle at Hawaii, and Vallos, an All-ACC right tackle at Wake Forest. Esera is only 6-3 and Vallos 6-2½.

The NFL can live with shorter guards. The prototype there is 6-4, 305. The NFL can live with even shorter centers. The prototype there is 6-3, 300.

Wanted: tall QBs
But the NFL cannot live with shorter quarterbacks. The prototype for the position is 6-3, 220 pounds.

The NFL wants its quarterbacks to stand at eye level with the offensive and defensive linemen. To make plays down the field, you must be able to see down the field. A 6-0 quarterback is continually looking through windows in his pass protection to throw.

That's why Michigan State's Drew Stanton figures to be drafted higher than Smith - even though Smith won the Heisman as the best player in college football playing in the same conference as Stanton. But Smith goes only 6-0, 226. Stanton is 6-3, 226.

"I can't do anything about the height thing," Smith said. "I don't think you can play taller than what you are. You make it seem like being 6-foot is a disease."

Big hands catch on
Wide receivers come in all sizes. Pro Bowler Steve Smith is 5-9, and Georgia Tech's Calvin Johnson, the top receiver in the 2007 draft, goes 6-5, 239 pounds. But hand size is critical at this position.

Bigger hands translate to more reliable hands on draft day. Nine-inch hands are good, 10-inch hands are better. Johnson has hands that measure 9¾. Ted Ginn Jr. of Ohio State is six inches shorter (5-11) than Johnson but has bigger hands. They measure 10 inches across. David Clowney of Virginia Tech has 10¼-inch hands. He's 6-0, 188 pounds with 4.39 speed. The NFL loves his measurables.

Wideouts with small hands generally are moved to defensive back earlier in their football careers. The only cornerback on this draft board with 10-inch hands is Marcus McCauley of Fresno State (10¼).

Ten of the top 35 cornerbacks on the 2007 draft board have hands smaller than nine inches. Only four of the top 40 wide receivers in this draft have hands smaller than nine inches.

In the thick of it
Height isn't as big a factor for running backs as thickness. Barry Sanders was only 5-8 but was thick across the thighs and chest. He weighed 205 pounds and could absorb a hit.

The NFL prototype for the position is 5-11, 215 pounds with 4.4 speed. Marshawn Lynch of California fits the prototype to a tee at 5-11, 215 with 4.48 speed. That will get him drafted in the first round - not necessarily the 1,356 rushing yards he gained last season in the Pac-10.

Garrett Wolfe rushed for 1,928 yards in 2006 at Northern Illinois and has 4.39 speed. But he stands 5-7 and weighs only 186 pounds. There are questions in draft rooms about his durability. Can he can absorb NFL punishment from tacklers and survive a 16-game season?

There are exceptions in every draft. Small players make it every year. So do short players. And slow players. But they earn their spots in training camp in August. They don't get the benefit of the doubt in April.

"There are things you can't measure, such as instincts," Abbate said, "and no one is going to outwork me. Heart and hustle are what made me successful on the collegiate level - and that's what's going to make me successful in this league. No one is going to outwork me."

But players without the measurables have to work a little bit harder.

MEASURING UP: OFFENSE
The minimum measurables for each position in the NFL draft:

Quarterback
Measurables: 6-3, 220, 4.75 speed

Key trait: A quarterback doesn't need to be a runner, but he must have foot quickness for escapability.

Prototype: Jay Cutler (6-3, 226, 4.77 speed). Denver, 1st round, 2006.

Exception: Drew Brees (6-0, 213, 4.81 speed). San Diego, 2nd round, 2001.

Halfback
Measurables: 5-11, 215, 4.40 speed

Key trait: Defenders are bigger in the NFL and deliver bigger hits than they do in college. So runners must have some thickness through their legs and chest to absorb 16 weeks of punishment.

Prototype: Joseph Addai (5-11, 214, 4.40 speed). Indianapolis, 1st round, 2006.

Exception: Maurice Jones-Drew (5-6½, 207, 4.39 speed). Jacksonville, 2nd round, 2006.

Fullback
Measurables: 6-0, 240, 4.60 speed

Key trait: NFL looks for fullbacks who are blockers first, receivers second, runners third. So the day of the 230-pound fullback is coming to an end.

Prototype: Cory Schlesinger (6-0, 247). Detroit, 6th round, 1995.

Exception: B.J. Askew (6-3, 233). N.Y. Jets, 3rd round, 2003.

Wide receiver
Measurables: 6-2, 200, 4.40 speed

Key trait: Speed to stretch the field. You can find possession receivers in the second day of every draft. The speed all goes in the first day.

Prototype: Roy Williams (6-2½, 212, 4.37 speed). Detroit, 1st round, 2004.

Exception: Anquan Boldin (6-0½, 216, 4.62 speed). Arizona, 2nd round, 2003.

Tight end
Measurables: 6-5, 250, 4.50 speed

Key trait: Running teams want bigger tight ends to block. Passing teams want faster tight ends to stretch defenses.

Prototype: Todd Heap (6-5, 252). Baltimore, 1st round, 2001.

Exception: Alge Crumpler (6-2, 262). Atlanta, 2nd round, 2001.

Offensive tackle
Measurables: 6-5, 310, 34-inch arms

Key trait: Pass protection is more steering than blocking on the edge. So tackles need long arms to shove rushers wide of the pocket. Height and 35-inch arms are the attractive commodities.

Prototype: D'Brickashaw Ferguson (6-6, 312, 35½-inch arms). NY Jets, 1st round, 2006.

Exception: Jordan Gross (6-4, 300, 33¼-inch arms). Carolina, 1st round, 2003.

Guard
Measurables: 6-4, 305, 33-inch arms

Key trait: Arm length is less important inside, where guards are asked to block in a closet. It's more important to have lower-body thickness to anchor against the growing number of 310-pound defensive tackles.

Prototype: Logan Mankins (6-4, 307). New England, 1st round, 2005.

Exception: Jake Scott (6-5, 295). Indianapolis, 5th round, 2004.

Center
Measurables: 6-3, 300, 32-inch arms

Key trait: Bulk is less important than athleticism. A center needs to pull, slide over to help the guard and also step out on the middle linebacker. But the center also needs some anchor against 3-4 defenses when a nose tackle is on his helmet.

Prototype: Nick Mangold (6-3½, 300). N.Y. Jets, 1st round, 2006.

Exception: Todd McClure (6-1, 289). Atlanta, 7th round, 1999.

MEASURING UP: DEFENSE
The minimum measurables for each position in the NFL draft:

Defensive end
Measurables: 6-4, 270, 4.6 speed

Key trait: Size is flexible depending on if it's a 4-3 defense or a 3-4, or if the end is playing strong side or weak. Bulk is needed on the strong side, speed on the weak side.

Prototype: Justin Smith (6-4, 275, 4.58 speed). Cincinnati, 1st round, 2001.

Exception: Dwight Freeney (6-1, 268, 4.39 speed). Indianapolis, 1st round, 2002.

Defensive tackle
Measurables: 6-3, 305

Key trait: In an era of specialization, the NFL rotates pass rushers into the game on passing downs. The NFL wants tackles who can play the run.

Prototype: Kevin Williams (6-4, 304). Minnesota, 1st round, 2003.

Exception: Casey Hampton (6-1, 314). Pittsburgh, 1st round, 2001.

Outside linebacker
Measurables: 6-3, 240, 4.50 speed

Key trait: The outside linebackers need to be the most versatile players on the field. They must have the bulk to stalemate pulling guards and tackles on run downs and the speed to chase running backs down the field in pass coverage.

Prototype: Derrick Johnson (6-3, 242, 4.50 speed). Kansas City, 1st round, 2005.

Exception: Ernie Sims (5-11, 231, 4.50). Detroit, 1st round, 2006.

Middle linebacker
Measurables: 6-2, 240, 4.60 speed

Key trait: Middle backers often have to engage a center or guard on rushing downs, so he must have the upper-body strength to stalemate a block in the hole.

Prototype: Dan Morgan (6-2, 240, 4.59 speed). Carolina, 1st round 2001.

Exception: Lofa Tatupu (5-11½, 238, 4.83). Seattle, 2nd round, 2005.

Cornerback
Measurables: 5-11, 190, 4.40 speed

Key trait: Speed, speed, speed: Speed to break on the ball, speed to turn and run with a wide receiver, speed to come up in run support.

Prototype: Marcus Trufant (5-11, 199, 4.38 speed). Seattle, 1st round, 2003.

Exception: Jason David (5-8½, 175, 4.37 speed). Indianapolis, 4th round, 2004.

Safety
Measurables: 6-0, 200, 4.45 speed

Key trait: In the 1990s, the NFL looked for run-support safeties. In the 2000s, the search is on for ballhawks. Now it's more important to play the ball when it's in the air than when it's on the ground. So the days of the 4.50 safeties are dwindling.

Prototype: Michael Huff (6-0, 204, 4.34 speed). Oakland, 1st round, 2006.

Exception: Bob Sanders (5-8, 204, 4.40 speed). Indianapolis, 2nd round, 2004.

[url]http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/columnists/r gosselin/stories/040107dnspogosselin.3d58630.html [/url]
 

White Mike

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So how do "we" messure up? By "we" I'm refering to white athletes in this years draft.

Brian Leonard: 6-0, 223, 4.49 speed

Halfback Measurables: 5-11, 215, 4.40 speed
Fullback Measurables: 6-0, 240, 4.60 speed

a lot closer to HB than FB

Eric Weddle: 5-11, 200, 4.48 speed

Cornerback Measurables: 5-11, 190, 4.40 speed
Safety Measurables: 6-0, 200, 4.45 speed

physicaly gifted enough to play either possitionEdited by: White Mike
 

white tornado

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Those times were for the ideal measurments not the minimum
 

Don Wassall

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white tornado said:
Those times were for the ideal measurments not the minimum


Exactly right. The NFL is loaded with black tailbacks, wide receivers, cornerbacks, and safeties who can't crack 4.6 in the 40. Edited by: Don Wassall
 

white tornado

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The public way over estimates the athletic ability of the average nfl player. They look at the freaks of the leage and think that they represent the average wich is actualy far below. It all goes back to thinking blacks are some kind of supper human. It also dosent help to have bone head anoncers who overstate the times of the players.
 
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The evaluation of talent and prediction of success is too complex for anyone to consistently get right. Look at all the "can't misses" who missed and the late draft choices and undrafted free agents who have been/are outstanding. But, people crave the simple answer to everything and there are always people who will give them what they want.


Success as a football player is the complex interaction of many measurable factors such as size, strength, power, speed, agility, etc., etc., etc. And ones that can't be measured well, often called "intangibles", such as "game sense", "a head for the game", and "instincts". Exactly what is the right mix has not been reduced to simple measurements--except game performance--and even that is not exact. As Caste Football participants know, a running back who does not get many carries is not going to gain a lot of yardage. Nor will a wide receiver who does not get many accurate, or even slightly inaccurate, passes thrown his way. A guy who has ability and gets the right opportunities will tend to do well, and an equally talented guy who doesn't get the necessary opportunities will not. Try gaining some yardage without the ball.


So, the tests in the NFL combine are, at best, a rough estimate of one's likelihood of being successful. They are better than just guessing, but far from exact. You can get a pretty good understanding of this type of thing by regular reading of journals like Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness, Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, and several others.


By the way, can anyone remember the name of the Minnesota Viking linebacker who was constantly considered too small and due for replacement, but year after year was in the starting lineup? And what about Zach Thomas and Mike Singletary, pretty good players lacking in "ideal size"? What were the guys who drafted them thinking anyway?
 

white is right

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white tornado said:
The public way over estimates the athletic ability of the average nfl player. They look at the freaks of the leage and think that they represent the average wich is actualy far below. It all goes back to thinking blacks are some kind of supper human. It also dosent help to have bone head anoncers who overstate the times of the players.
Or love stereotyping all players black or white. It's true about the athletic ability of the NFL players most of the "fast" guys would be scrubs on a college track team.....
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ToughJ.Riggins

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Posted "Exception: Anquan Boldin (6-0½, 216, 4.62 speed). Arizona, 2nd round, 2003."
*That must be his college time. He didn't run at Proday and he ran a 4.72 at the combine

Don Wassle wrote:
Exactly right. The NFL is loaded with black tailbacks, wide receivers, cornerbacks, and safeties who can't crack 4.6 in the 40.

I'd would agree with that except for corners. A Running Back or Wide Receiver can be successful without blazing speed by utilizing good jukes or being very physical in style of play. However a CB has to have the closing speed to make up ground when he bites on a fake or gets blocked out of the play.

As far as how we measure up; I composed a list of recent slow black WR's. So, here is a list of slow black Running Backs since 2000. The list is either made up of guys who have started or were highly touted first day draft picks. If the player didn't run at the combine or Proday their college time was listed, however most ran at the combine:

Lewis, Jamal: 4.58; Alexander, Shaun: 4.58;
Dayne, Ron: 4.65; Droughns, Reuben: 4.61;
Anderson, Mike:4.69; Jordan, Lamont: 4.57;
Henry, Travis: 4.61; Barlow, Kevan: 4.56;
Johnson, Rudi:4.57; Shipp, Marcel: 4.71;
Foster, DeShaun: 4.57; Westbrook, Brian: 4.57;
Johnson, Larry: 4.55; Davis, Domanick: 4.58;
Jones, Greg: 4.55; Perry, Chris: 4.55;
Moore, Mewelde: 4.65; Fason, Ciatrick: 4.55;
Harris, Kay-Jay: 4.56; Jacobs, Brandon: 4.56;
Gore, Frank: 4.55; Maroney, Laurence: 4.55;
Humes, Cedric: 4.62; Bell, Mike: 4.60;

Notables from this years draft:
Hunt, Tony: 4.66; Bush, Michael: 4.62;
Walker, Darius: 4.55


What did I notice from this?

1. Brian Leonard is faster and a better overall athlete than Lawrence Maroney yet if he is drafted by the Patriots he may be blocking for him.

2. Many of the top white LB's and virtually any white HB, WR or DB prospects (as few of them as there are) run better short shuttles and 3 cone drills than the top black RB's.

3. Why does the combine even include the short shuttle and 3 cone if they don't give a sh*t about the results? It never seems to help a white players draft status.

"Ok" the caste wimps say "What about their actual playing ability and production." So, I leave you with this note:
Tim Shaw doesn't have the tools to be an NFL running back but Tony Hunt does?

Tim Shaw:
Height: 6-1.5 Weight: 217 40-Yard Dash: 4.44 20-Yard Shuttle: 4.30 Vertical Jump: 34.8" Bench Reps: 21 (coming out of H.S!):
"and as far as production he is Michigan's all time leading rusher (10 YPC) Michigan Gatorade Player of the Year. Had 2,611 yards rushing and 41 touchdowns." Shaw got a whole 13 carries at Penn State before he was switched to LB. I guess Tony Hunt is just automatically better b/c he is black
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Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
 

Don Wassall

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ToughJ.Riggins said:
Don Wassle wrote:
Exactly right. The NFL is loaded with black tailbacks, wide receivers, cornerbacks, and safeties who can't crack 4.6 in the 40.


Lots of good research. My comment wasn't about Pro Days or The Combine. IMO, if you take all the NFL tailbacks, wideouts, CBs and safeties, right now and timed them, many and probably most would not be able to run less than 4.6. The number of NFL players who if they were white would be called slow is large, as one can tell by watching the games, where the genuinely fast players, the ones who can (still) run the kinds of times heralded at the Combine,stand out.
 

Kaptain

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What's ironic about this whole "measurables" discussion is that the average sports fan would think that the measurables are the last thing that the folks at caste football would want to discuss when, in fact, it is our best arguement. Scientific fact is our best arguement and one that is most definetely on our side.

The "intangibles" are what we want out of the discussion. Hip flexibility, wiggle, toughness, high-motor, break-away speed,
 

ToughJ.Riggins

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Yeah, any of the whites that make it at the speed positions have to have either freak measurables and if they don't, and are a WR, they have to be freakishly big ie. Jurevicius. A black can be a poor athlete and average size. Then the scouts will say "he has good agility" or "He's a good route runner" or "He's instinctive" or "Just look at his game footage."

Another argument I would use is that the 3 cone drills and short shuttles show short area quickness and change of direction. It is probably more important than having a blazing 40 time. As White Shogun mentioned players don't run 40 yards very often in games. In these drills it is whites who on average do better. If I were going to analyze the NFL's policy for 40 times a player of "average size" has to crack to become a starter at the speed postions it would be:

For Blacks:
WR: 4.7, HB: 4.7
CB: 4.5

For Whites:
WR: 4.5 HB: 4.4
CB: 4.3

This gets rid of the opportunity for the few good white players that got to play on a Div. 1 team. It's the NFL's Affirmative action policy or should I say "quotas"!



Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
 

white is right

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Does anybody know what Mike Alstott's 40 at the combines was coming out of Purdue? It makes me wonder why Dungy gave him a shot at running the ball beyond goal line plunges. I suspect his production won over Dungy(during pre-season and regular games)...
 

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There are a lot of parallels between Alstott and Leonard. Both were outstanding college runners but neither was allowed to be his team's featured back. Both had to run from the fullback position. Alstott finished as Purdue's all-time leading rusher, but shared the backfield withdifferent black tailbacks, albeit sometimes in a split formation. Even at a relatively white friendly program like Purdue, the team felt the need to have a "real runner" at all times as the tailback rather than let Alstott be its clear primary running weapon.


The opinion of the Draft "experts" about Alstottwas that while he could not be a featured runner (tailback), he would be wasted if used just as a blocking fullback because he was too good catching the ball and had some running ability. With the exception of Mike Mayock, this is how Leonard is pegged as well for the NFL.


I would guess that Alstott ran a 4.55 40, a little slower than Leonard but still excellent for his size. They are about even in elusiveness, balance, visionand overall running ability, with Alstott being a little stronger. Leonard bench pressed more than any other runner at The Combine, but Alstott was a true bull. He spent his summers pushing the family car around his neighborhood. He could have been a regular 1,200 to 1,700 yards rushing per season guy in the NFL, plus a lot of receiving yards, if used as the featured back. He would have been especiallyeffective wearing down defenses in the second half of games, which he often did anyway while sharing carries with Warrick Dunn.
 

white tornado

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Alstott has as much pure power as any one ever! I agree with y'all on how good he could have been. The one thing I think Brian has alot more of than Alsott is tremendas break away speed. Brians longest run in college was 80 plus yards and he had many long td runs.

I think Alsott if given a chance would have had many long runs to but Brian has incredibal speed indurance for a running back.
 

jared

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white is right said:
Does anybody know what Mike Alstott's 40 at the combines was coming out of Purdue? It makes me wonder why Dungy gave him a shot at running the ball beyond goal line plunges. I suspect his production won over Dungy(during pre-season and regular games)...
Interesting reminder that Dungy was the one who gave Alstott all those carries... Plus the Colts lost Rhodes which leaves them with Addai and some scrubs. They're in the perfect spot of the draft to nab Leonard at the bottom of the 1st and Brian's perfect for a single back offense. Being a black coach who just won the Super Bowl, nobody will be giving Dungy much crap if he wants to play a white at tailback. He's already got a white guy at pretty much every single other position on that team.
 

white is right

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Here is an interesting excerpt from the Boston Globe about why Heath Evans was taken off the waiver wire.....What did you guys see that Miami didn't see in Heath Evans?
"I'm not sure what Miami didn't see. What we saw was a guy who was a big back. We like bigger backs because of the style of offense we run. He's a guy who had some fullback skills, but also had some running back skills, and he had a style of play, and he was available on the street. What their evaluation was, I'm not sure. We thought he had some of the skills we needed at that point in time. We had a number of backs beat up and it was time to find someone."

How long was he available for, a week?
"I want to say it was about 10 days, a week and a half, two weeks about."

So it wasn't just Miami, it was everyone in the NFL?
"Everyone had a shot at him when he was waived, anyone can claim him off of waivers. Then he was on the street, unemployed for a couple weeks. Again, part of what we do, and part of what our job is [about] is to remember players and know ... the players coming up in this year's draft, we will keep all that information whether they get drafted or don't get drafted. We'll have a file that stays with them. Heath has banged around the league a couple of years and is a player we knew."

He's a fullback, but he has speed. What is he - a 4.5 40-yard dash guy?
"Coming out [of Auburn], he was right around high 4.5s, low 4.6s. Now he's up to about 250 pounds. Again, he's not a pure fullback. He's not a pure tailback. He's kind of a hybrid. It's the kind of back we call a big back."

He has a lot of Mike Alstott in him...
"I think his body type will sometimes make you think that. There are similarities to how he looks.
 
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