Clemens no different than Bonds

Wow. This didn't take long.

The only difference between Clemens and Bonds is the color of their skin.

Clemens is no different than Bonds

Wetzel was chomping at the bit to write his column.


Excerpt: But Bonds was caught up in a federal investigation into BALCO, a prison term for Victor Conte and a mountain of other evidence.


Call it Clemens' good fortune, but there was only so much you could say. Not any longer.


Anyone who spent years spewing contempt at Bonds needs to do the same to Clemens, because there is no difference between them. End


I guess it must have slipped Danny's mind, but I can think of a huge difference between the two. It's something called - perjury.

One big difference Clemens isn't a racist(at least publicly) and doesn't have contempt for his teammates and the fans that made him. Otherwise maybe they are the same...

Much as I HATE to do this, as a baseball fan I put Clemens in the same boat as Bonds. More likeable? Sure .. but still a cheater. Y'know, it's kind of funny but remember when Boston's GM Dan Duquette was ripped for letting Clemens go because he was on the downside of his career? (I too thought he lost his marbles). And then Clemens ripped off 4 more Cy Young awards later in his career? I guess we know why now. There are other examples too. Remember when the Rangers didn't re-sign Pudge because history shows a catcher to break down in his early 30's? Not Pudge ... now we know why. Gagne? An average middle-reliever suddenly looks like a LB and wins the Cy Young? And on it goes....

It's just embarrassing really. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, etc. All cheaters now. One guy I was totally surprised to hear about was Andy Pettitte. Family guy, doesn't look like he ever used roids, etc. Just goes to show you never know...

The key for baseball though is to actually follow Mark McGwire's pathetic testimony at Capitol Hill and to "not talk about the past but to look to the future". Because the Mitchell report will only be as good as what happens AFTER the report is released. Baseball needs to implement the report's recommendations to make the system more cheat-proof than it currently is. Whenever you have the union's #2 guy (Gene Orza) giving a player a heads-up that a drug test is 2 weeks away, something has gone seriously wrong. (But would you expect anything less by the MLBPA?) I fully anticipate it will take another ass-whipping by Congress to move Fehr to comply, but it will happen. The union is soooo slow to move unless threatened by Congress. Anyway, give baseball truly random drug tests, more frequent testing & then we may have a workable solution.

Sorry for the long note. I get passionate when talking about the great American pastime!

I can think of four differences that Weasel omitted:

1) Bonds commmitted the greatest sin of all in today's United States--
he's a racist. Clemens isn't as far as I know.

2) Bonds lied under oath in a court of law.

3) Bonds let his supposed close friend rot in jail for two years while
maintaining his hokey "I'm innocent!" act.

4) Bonds holds several MLB records--single season home runs, total
home runs, single season slugging percentage, and single season walks.
Clemens holds none, as far as I know. The Cy Young award is voted on
by sports writers, so that doesn't count.

Did anybody but me catch the "its understandable if poor brown people
do it" excuse that the Weasel was pushing? No pity for the "white
priviledged"--now that's somebody who believes in equality!

Also, why is the Weasel inserting skin color into it? Nobody is mad at
Bonds because he is black--they are mad because he is a cheater and a
liar.

BTW, where are Sammy Sosa, A-Rod, and Ken Griffey Jr.? Or is the idea to
have a bogus, political investigation (by a politician), make a few more
easily avoided rules, and then tidy things up for the next round of
record-breaking cheaters?

You know, the dispicable Bud Selig averted hs virgin eyes from this mess
until the BALCO scandal broke, and he had to do something to soothe the
media. This bogus investigation and report is the result. Why anybody
would take this ridiculous sport seriously from now on is beyond me.

BTW, the loser troll above should also be banned (returning to his old
handle).Edited by: PitBull

What I want to know is how Bo Jackson wasn't on this list? (Maybe they didn't go that far back?) Or big Papi? It seems like they only got names from people either fingered or caught in the raids that netted Evan Fields and other sports stars... Or what about Mcwire's partner in the summer of love Sammy? Edited by: white is right

PitBull --
Good points on your post. BTW, I sure hope I'm not the "loser troll" you're referring too. I think you'll see from my previous posts that I'm anything but.

I'll have to eat some crow on Clemens if he did use steroids, as I've repeatedly called him the greatest pitcher ever. I saw his mid-career tailoff as an aberration as his later years were similar to the first part of his career. But even though Clemens comes across as one of the more arrogant white athletes, there's still a big difference in personality between Roger and Barry Bonds, who, all things considered, is probably the biggest ingrate and a-hole of all time.


We can assume Bud Selig will continue to remain unscathed even though it was under his watch that he and the owners winked at the players juicing, as the owners desired lots of homers and high scoring games, which put many more drunk white fannies in the seats. The ownersare makingmore money than everwith even the small market teamsbeing quite profitable nowdespite the industry's salary structure, and the bottom line is the only thing that matters in corporatized America.

texasheat said:

PitBull --
Good points on your post. BTW, I sure hope I'm not the "loser troll" you're referring too. I think you'll see from my previous posts that I'm anything but.

Click to expand...

I'm confused on that too. TexasHeat is good poster, would like to see you post more often.

PitBull said:

4) Bonds holds several MLB records--single season home runs, total
home runs, single season slugging percentage, and single season walks.
Clemens holds none, as far as I know. The Cy Young award is voted on
by sports writers, so that doesn't count.

Click to expand...

Clemens holds the single game strikeout record, is the all-time AL strikeout leader, has won the most Cy Young awards, which counts as a recordin my opinion. He is among the leaders in a number of career categories, which is what is most remarkable about him to me as in Cy Young's era pitchers started every two or three games. Certainly Clemens never had a chance to top Jack Chesbro's 41 wins in a season or Cy Young's 511 career wins. Up to the early part of Clemens' career, pitchers started every fourth day. Clemens started every fifth day for most of his career, which makes his 350+ wins more impressive to me than any accomplishments by batters during the same time period. Of course his career looks to be as tainted now as those of the big boppers.

white is right said:

What I want to know is how Bo Jackson wasn't on this list? (Maybe they didn't go that far back?) Or big Papi? It seems like they only got names from people either fingered or caught in the raids that netted Evan Fields and other sports stars...

Or what about Mcwire's partner in the summer of love Sammy?

Click to expand...

It's a joke. It is top heavy with white players,stars from yesteryear, andmany average players.Where are all the current budding black stars and hispanics?Don't tell me that list wasn't cherry picked.

Isn't the dirt on Clemens before the ban? Same as with McGwire? I thought Wetzel mentioned something about that in the article.

Question for everyone: if a substance isn't banned or illegal and an athlete consumes that substance in the hopes of improving his performance, is he still a cheater? Things like creatine, L-glutamine, protein powders, etc.

If said athlete isn't a cheater, then why is Mark McGwire considered a cheater? The substance he used was neither illegal nor banned at the time he took it.

White Shogun said:

Isn't the dirt on Clemens before the ban? Same as with McGwire? I thought Wetzel mentioned something about that in the article.

Question for everyone: if a substance isn't banned or illegal and an athlete consumes that substance in the hopes of improving his performance, is he still a cheater? Things like creatine, L-glutamine, protein powders, etc.

If said athlete isn't a cheater, then why is Mark McGwire considered a cheater? The substance he used was neither illegal nor banned at the time he took it.

Click to expand...

None of these players did anything illegal, and it's a legitimate questionwhether they did anything immoral, given that Selig and the owners were all for the steroid-fueled power surge of the late '90s and early '00s. The spotlight of recrimination should be shining on Selig and the owners and their role in all but explicitly endorsing steroid use until MLB was pressured to reverse course. It's hard to have any sympathy for the players and their union, but in this case they are being unfairly blamed for what the owners encouraged.

I've said this before and been disagreed with but I am going to say it again. Greg Maddux is the best pitcher since Walter Johnson. He may be the best baseball player in the steroids era. Not only are his prime years as good as anyone's prime years ever, but he has done it against juiced competition. Something players from previous generations did not have to do.

One look at Maddux's career numbers will tell you that he is legit as every year he slips a little on the greasy vine, both in production and mph on his fastball. He also has never shown any interest in personal goals and seems content to, as he states, "just pitch".

The consumate professional, he uses his brain more than his body to stay effective.

I admit I am a huge Maddux fan but I had no doubt that his name would not appear in the Mitchell report.

Next season Maddux will turn 42 and surpass Clemens on the total wins list as he finishes his last contracted year with San Diego. He will probably pass several other pitchers on his way to 360 wins. I hope he continues to play past 2008 and finishes with at least 375 wins. That win total will give him some distance from Clemens, put him 3rd on the all time wins list and cement his status as the greatest pitcher since the dead ball era.

Texasheat,

Sorry about that! I got you mixed up with the old troll TexasTech. My
apologies. I was unhappy Clemens was on the list and I got a bit carried
away.

White Shogun,

I think there's a big difference between taking vitamins or creatine and
taking anabolic steroids or HgH. It was well known at the time these guys
took them that anabolic steroids give a much greater performance boost
than the former substances. People forget that even though steroids may
not have been specifically banned by MLB, they are still illegal substances
and using them and buying them is illegal. I don't want to get into the
whole drug legalization thing, but taking these substances to get and
edge on the competition, when you know that only a fraction of them are
using the same things, is pretty unethical as well. These guys knew what
they were doing. Most were all solid major leaguers, and were never in
any danger of being sent to the minors or pushed out of the game.

My biggest problem with steroids is that these guys are making really
good money, and even if they have a short career, they will make far more
than the average guy will ever make. Why they feel the need to cheat like
this when they already have the brass ring is beyond me. The whole
thing probably got out of hand in the late 90's early 2000's when so many
players were on them, and many more took them to stay competitive. In
that situation, the players should have taken the issue up with the union
and tried to quietly test and get rid of the steroid themselves. It shows
how unethical most of these people are. Role models, my ass!

Boy, I sure do appreciate how good Maddux is too, GWTJ! The best
pitcher of the modern era, hands down.Edited by: PitBull

PitBull said:

My biggest problem with steroids is that these guys are making really
good money, and even if they have a short career, they will make far more
than the average guy will ever make. Why they feel the need to cheat like
this when they already have the brass ring is beyond me.

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That's my problem too! A guy like Clemens was already rich beyond belief with a great career. He also seemed tired of the game, retiring and moving from team to team. Why couldn't he let go? Surely he took the juice to just prolong his career. It's the same with a lot of people, no one has the good sense to grow old gracefully, everyone's trying to cheat father time and stay young too long. It's one thing for a marginal player to cheat so as to get a fat contract and pay the bills but a vet player already rich? Just sucks.

jaxvid said:

That's my problem too! A guy like Clemens was already rich beyond belief with a great career.

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I can't relate to rich, celebrity, super star athletes in any way. The life of a big shot baseball player is ideal. The money they make is unfathomable, and they only play half a year. What is a routine day? Arise at ten, drive their Escalade to the park and have breakfast, then hit a few fungoes or snag some grounders or fly balls.After that gruelling workout, they feast at the team's buffet to fuel up for the incredible pounding they take playing a full nine innings, or pitching once every four or five days. Afterwards, some of them sign autographs, eat again, get a massage and sit around in hot tubs. After that hectic -work- day they paradeall overtown getting freebies, dinners, drinks, suits, and all they babes they can handle. Edited by: Bart

GWTJ said:

I've said this before and been disagreed with but I am going to say it again. Greg Maddux is the best pitcher since Walter Johnson. He may be the best baseball player in the steroids era. Not only are his prime years as good as anyone's prime years ever, but he has done it against juiced competition. Something players from previous generations did not have to do.

One look at Maddux's career numbers will tell you that he is legit as every year he slips a little on the greasy vine, both in production and mph on his fastball. He also has never shown any interest in personal goals and seems content to, as he states, "just pitch".

The consumate professional, he uses his brain more than his body to stay effective.

I admit I am a huge Maddux fan but I had no doubt that his name would not appear in the Mitchell report.

Next season Maddux will turn 42 and surpass Clemens on the total wins list as he finishes his last contracted year with San Diego. He will probably pass several other pitchers on his way to 360 wins. I hope he continues to play past 2008 and finishes with at least 375 wins. That win total will give him some distance from Clemens, put him 3rd on the all time wins list and cement his status as the greatest pitcher since the dead ball era.

Click to expand...

I've always admired Maddux in a big way. He's the consummate pro and it would be great to see him surpass Warren Spahn and get to 375 wins or more.


The other one of the "Big Three" is Randy Johnson. If he had been able to harness his talent at a younger age his career stats would be mind-boggling.Let's hope he wasn't another one that used steroids.

The fact that Mitchell is on the board of directors for the Bosox certainly does not lend to his credibility, ashis team's historic nemesis, the Yanks,were hit the hardest by the selected results of the investigation he directed. The Latin American players don't need to rely on steroids from trainers and towel guys, their home countries are hot beds of illegal drug trafficking. Selig and baseball know the score, but have turned a blind eye for obvious reasons.

Supposedly getting PED's in the Dominican Republic is similar to getting Tylenol 3 here. I think Sammy had his connection at home so that's why he was never fingered. Also as previous posters stated before Latino players were virtually all skinny singles hitters until the steroid era. I only recall Orlando Cepeda as being a muscular guy. Last night on ESPN that had a baseball insider and he even admitted he was handcuffed by saying who he knew was juicing or did juice and saying it on the air. Also body types don't indicate roid usage. As Moe Vaughn who never saw his feet when he looked down was busted and relatively skinny guys like Petit and Zaun were popped too.

Wonder if they will ever do a similar report for the NFL or NBA? Or is this type of scrutiny reserved only for majority white sports?

Greg Maddux shines all the brighter now.

It's good to see the MSM finally acknowledge the steroid problem...now that they've got some white faces to pin it on that is. These same people defended (and still defend) Bonds while they are piling on Clemmons and Pettite. Their hypocritical moralizing is a joke.

Ironically,

Mark McGwire is not on the list. At least not the version published by MSNBC.

This baseball roid scandal has made the non-sports news up here in Canada. The media here has turned to scrutinize the NHL and wonder how rampant drug use is in hockey. The glaring question should be, as Poacher has mentioned already, what about the NFL. If any major league sport in North America needs to be flushed out it is football. The NFL is the epicentre of drug users, cheaters, pushers, fakers, frauds, swindlers, liars, tricksters, depraived duntzs, impostors, violators, and squalid criminals ever assembled before his Majesty's commons. Have I missed anyone?

I saw President Bush on TV this morning talking about the Mitchell Report. Uh, excuse me, Mr. President, but don't you have more important things to worry about, like the impending destruction of America?

Slowly and with small words so EVERYONE can understand it.

Pro.....affletes.....are.....all.....on.....PEDs..........PE RIOD!!!


Those who get caught are the ones who are especially stupid or ones that the higher-ups want caught.Edited by: White_Savage