White Olympic Team

Alpha Male

Mentor
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
775
Location
California
Observer said:
Alpha Male said:
"I really dont care about caste and all that other stuff..."



Then why are you here? There are plenty of other sites where you can discuss your position from a mainstream view.
Are there? I think the Caste & crew under-rates its attraction. The Internet is full of imbecilic discussion forums and jargon wer ppl tp lk dis and it is a relief to come across something better. IQ here is 120+ but nastiness sometimes hits the genius level (not meant as a compliment).





How am I being nasty? ThatBlackGuy said he doesn't care about the caste system, and none of his posts indicate concern with racial discrimination against whites in sports. So, why post on a site that does? Every other site will agree with him. Edited by: Alpha Male
 

Observer

Mentor
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
523
No, Alpha Male your post wasn't nasty. Maybe a little paranoid? It kind of looks that way from my perspective as a relative newcomer. Some paranoia is good.

But don't posts such as the above well fit the criteria of "looking at... sports overall through an objective lens" (from the About page) in the context of white athletes? A good discussion, I thought.Edited by: Observer
 
G

Guest

Guest
TBG, honestly, you seem to be just another caste-brainwashed fan.

"...most of those guys are incredibly fast"

You have got to be kidding. Let me run some real-life stats by you from the Olympics:
C Anthony 8 steals, 23 fouls
D Williams 6 steals, 21 fouls
K Bryant: 9 steals, 19 fouls
J Kidd 5 steals, 13 fouls
D Howard, 5 steals, and yes, 7 blocks, but 23 fouls!
Only three guys on the whole team had more steals than fouls, and it was close even in their cases.

"nearly all of them are fearless finishers at the hoop... each one of those guys are all capable of taking over a game whenever nessecary"

Dude, come on, give me a break. Take one guy off that team, D Wade, and they are almost certainly not a gold medal winner. Take two guys, D Wade and L James, off the team, and they are struggling to win any medal.Those two guys are true superstars, and they truly carried the load, offensively and defensively, scoring, blocks, steals, assists, you name it.Yet, in your mind, the whole team is a bunch of uber-athletes, all of them effortless flying past hapless defenders at will. I don't think so.

For example, you said: "Carmelo is practically unstoppable near the hoop"

Ok, fact check: Carmelo shot the second to worst percentage on the team, barely above 40%!Only our "designated shooter" M Redd, who took M Miller's spot for some inexplicable reason, shot worse, actually below 40%.

"Which one of those guys is known for consistently getting to the line, and at the same time, going strong to the hoop and is capable of changing up the momentum of an entire game?"

Fair question, and I don't have league pass, but I saw Dunleavy put up a number of 30 point games last season. M Miller is a fantastic finisher, from what I have seen. How about C Kaman and D Lee? You aren't questioning their skill in the lane, are you?

As for defense, whites are always the best at the most over-looked and underrated aspect of defense: anticipation and good position. Specifically, in offensive fouls drawn, Dunleavy is always a league leader, 5th in the league in 05-06, 10th in 06-07, and 8th in 07-08.Hinrich was 13th in 05-06, and 18th overall in 06-07.Even ole' "slow footed" Korver was among the league leaders (30th overall) in 05-06, 2nd on his team only behind A Iverson.

No defense??? How about the caveman Kaman, third in the league in blocks?Steals? Hinrich had more than D Williams last year!

Not taking it to the hole for fouls? Dunleavy drew almost as many shooting fouls (164) as B Davis (177) and more than T McGrady (157), C Billups (156), K Garnett (142), or C Paul (119).T Murphy drew 118 shooting fouls, C Kaman 117, and M Miller 86, not exactly spot-up shooter numbers, which is more fairly applied to Korver 14 and Kapono 21.

In the end, basketball is about putting the ball through the hoop, so lets look at 3point shooting.Kapono #1 in the NBA, Carroll #9, M Miller #10, Dunleavy #12, all above 42%.Even my back-up PF Murphy, at #34 with 40%, beats out D Williams, the best on the 2008 Redeem Team, who finished at #37. M Redd didn't even make the top 50, what a joke.

Like all caste-brainwashed fans, you think having a dark skin makes you a superman, while light skin makes you slow and passive. Sorry, that is not the case.

My white American team would have a great blend of size, rebounding, post moves, and above all, great shooting at every position, which is what basketball is all about.

It is fun to talk about, too bad we will never see it in action.
 

celticdb15

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
8,469
It is fun to talk about 89 and there are so many combinations of players to put on the team its kinda cool. The thing is most of the guys we mentioned are not superstars and are not hyped up by the media so that makes the average fan think they suck because they have a different style of play. Also who would be your coach fo rthis all white team 89?
 

guest301

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
4,246
Location
Ohio
Kirk Hinrich is actually seen as the best on the ball defender the Bulls have. He has very good lateral movement and was a top elite track and field guy in high school.It's his white skin that makes people think he is slow and terrible defensively.
 

ThatBlackGuy

Newbie
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19
89Glory said:
TBG, honestly, you seem to be just another caste-brainwashed fan.



"...most of those guys are incredibly fast"



You have got to be kidding. Let me run some real-life stats by you from the Olympics:

C Anthony 8 steals, 23 fouls

D Williams 6 steals, 21 fouls

K Bryant: 9 steals, 19 fouls

J Kidd 5 steals, 13 fouls

D Howard, 5 steals, and yes, 7 blocks, but 23 fouls!

Only three guys on the whole team had more steals than fouls, and it was close even in their cases.



"nearly all of them are fearless finishers at the hoop... each one of those guys are all capable of taking over a game whenever nessecary"



Dude, come on, give me a break. Take one guy off that team, D Wade, and they are almost certainly not a gold medal winner. Take two guys, D Wade and L James, off the team, and they are struggling to win any medal.Those two guys are true superstars, and they truly carried the load, offensively and defensively, scoring, blocks, steals, assists, you name it.Yet, in your mind, the whole team is a bunch of uber-athletes, all of them effortless flying past hapless defenders at will. I don't think so.



For example, you said: "Carmelo is practically unstoppable near the hoop"



Ok, fact check: Carmelo shot the second to worst percentage on the team, barely above 40%!Only our "designated shooter" M Redd, who took M Miller's spot for some inexplicable reason, shot worse, actually below 40%.



"Which one of those guys is known for consistently getting to the line, and at the same time, going strong to the hoop and is capable of changing up the momentum of an entire game?"



Fair question, and I don't have league pass, but I saw Dunleavy put up a number of 30 point games last season. M Miller is a fantastic finisher, from what I have seen. How about C Kaman and D Lee? You aren't questioning their skill in the lane, are you?



As for defense, whites are always the best at the most over-looked and underrated aspect of defense: anticipation and good position. Specifically, in offensive fouls drawn, Dunleavy is always a league leader, 5th in the league in 05-06, 10th in 06-07, and 8th in 07-08.Hinrich was 13th in 05-06, and 18th overall in 06-07.Even ole' "slow footed" Korver was among the league leaders (30th overall) in 05-06, 2nd on his team only behind A Iverson.



No defense??? How about the caveman Kaman, third in the league in blocks?Steals? Hinrich had more than D Williams last year!



Not taking it to the hole for fouls? Dunleavy drew almost as many shooting fouls (164) as B Davis (177) and more than T McGrady (157), C Billups (156), K Garnett (142), or C Paul (119).T Murphy drew 118 shooting fouls, C Kaman 117, and M Miller 86, not exactly spot-up shooter numbers, which is more fairly applied to Korver 14 and Kapono 21.



In the end, basketball is about putting the ball through the hoop, so lets look at 3point shooting.Kapono #1 in the NBA, Carroll #9, M Miller #10, Dunleavy #12, all above 42%.Even my back-up PF Murphy, at #34 with 40%, beats out D Williams, the best on the 2008 Redeem Team, who finished at #37. M Redd didn't even make the top 50, what a joke.



Like all caste-brainwashed fans, you think having a dark skin makes you a superman, while light skin makes you slow and passive. Sorry, that is not the case.



My white American team would have a great blend of size, rebounding, post moves, and above all, great shooting at every position, which is what basketball is all about.



It is fun to talk about, too bad we will never see it in action.



You know i want to continue to argue with you in your posts, but whats making it difficult to want to give you a good response accordingly is the fact that

1. You constantly insult my opinions not for what they are, but claim because of their white skin, i underrate every player on the team

2. Even after i tell you aspects of the current team i LIKE and DONT LIKE, you still claim i simply overrate players with dark skin, despite the fact that nothing i said really reflects that, if you want to tell me somehow the current team USA isnt that good, because they went undefeated this year and took the gold, you are by yourself in that regard.

3. Calling me brainwashed because i dont agree, let me ask you this, when i said i wouldnt rate this team THAT highly over teams like argentina and spain, you mean to tell me that somehow i am brainwashed because i am NOT ready to concede to a team like that just mopping up opponents at will?

4. I never said the team was garbage, i just said i dont think that team is incredible, while i could see a team like that in the medal around, again, i dont think that team is as good as the current TEAM USA. Thats my opinion. You are the only person bringing up race. Some people brought up replacements, and i even mentioned good aspects from my standpoint of what would improve the team.

5. If i am "brainwashed" because i dont agree with you, what would it say about the people who read your team, agree with it without knowing the players? You seem to be one of the only ones who instead of agreeing and disagreeing with my points, play the angle of "you just think because they are white____" You could run to that argument all damn day. Any disagreement about a white player could lead to that. If i tell you troy murphy is slow, streaky and a bad defender, you would likely claim i said this because hes white, or could tell me im "brainwashed by the caste". How is this any different to people saying NBA players are treated to a different moral standard because they are black? Either way its running to the idea of race as opposed to arguing a logical point. I dont think thats fair at all, especially since others in this thread have either put together different combinations of white team members, or as one person did, put another team together with all new players.

6. If i was wrong about kirk hinrich i apologize, the only time i really saw the bulls was against my team, in which Monta Ellis repeatedly hinrich to the hoop, if he is a better defender than i am giving him credit for, i apologize. I do respect Hinrichs passing ability and his 3pt shooting.

7. Never would i say that the current team USA was stacked with great one on one defenders, it was the system they used that made it work so well, that system IN MY OPINION would not work as well with YOUR team USA, so I SAID they would have to play a Zone to be effective. Either that, or play a slow grind it out pace of ball control and a good halfcourt game. Team USA as of right now had alot offensive firepower and tried to create turnovers and alot of team crumbled under it. As far as fouls go, FIBA/Olympic basketball is very inconsistent with officiating, not just for TEAM USA, but for every team overall, the foul calling, touch fouls and insane no-calls make for some very lopsided and terrible officiating depending on the ref.

8. You will never convince me, even with decent defenders like Kaman, who mind you, didint defend that well at all in the olympics, that this team is some kind of defensive powerhouse, its not. I am not saying that because they are white. I am not saying that because i am biased, i am saying that because as a team, unless you run a really good scheme, i dont see this team being that good defensively. I didint even think TEAM USA of now was going to be that great defensively until i saw the style of play they were using, which only worked because again, that team was generally fast.

9. Brad Miller is consistently hurt, and i already told you that hes a good presence down low, hes a great passer, i already said this, but hes a bad defender, i see him constantly on sacramento broadcasts, hes a bad defender, im sorry. I already said that Dunleavy could possibly get to the hoop on a consistent basis, i also said that about miller. When it comes to murphy, honestly, it depends on the night, maybe hes different down there in indiana, but when he was here, there were times where he would give you 20/10 3 nights in a row, and then times where he would miss foul shots and not finish up close at the rim and brick 3 pointers. I think murphy is very inconsistent on his offense, and i was murphys biggest supporters here in oakland, i still like him as a player. Either way, murphy and dunleavy got traded and our team made it to the playoffs, whereas when they were here, we constantly hovered around the bottom of the division, our team improved when they left. Dunleavy i think is a decent player, but for whatever reason, he didint excel here.

10. Just for once, if you are going to respond to me, try to use an argument and not bring race into it. Comprehension should tell you i watch the NBA. Even if i am wrong in my opinion, thats all it is. An opinion. I garuntee you if you showed this team to the other "caste brainwashed" messageboards they would tell you this team is filled with scrubs, but i didint say that and i dont think that, im just not ready to overrate them to the stratosphere.
 
G

Guest

Guest
TBG, you may not mean to bring race into it, but you are bringing up caste stereotypes that just aren't true.

Saying of the 2008 team that they are "all really fast... fearless finishers... can take over a game at will..." that kind of thing. For a small few, like D Wade, yes, that is true, but for the rest, no, that is just stereotype.

Then you drop the double whammy, throwing the blanket down about "slow... jump shooting... bad defense... etc" applied to my team of white players. Murphy, yes, no doubt, a bad defender. But Kaman, Lee, Dunleavy, and Hinrich are very solid defenders and the stats back that up. This whole site is devoted to overcoming such stereotypes, always elevating the black as "athletic" while the white is just a "hard worker" or whatever.

Looking at it objectively, yes, my second team of BMiller, Murphy, Korver, Kapono, and Dickau is a weak defensive team, I will admit. My third team is probably better than them defensively, and it is definitely unfair to say the first team plays bad defense.

That is the great thing about international competitions. Guys that are relegated to "scrub" status, as you put it, in the NBA, get to show what they can do when unleashed. Guys like Spanoulis, Navarro, and Scola, who barely get off the bench in the NBA, show that they can excel against the NBA all-stars when given the shot.

With the exception of very small group of guys (like Nowitzki, Ginobili, Kirilenko), I think it is pretty obvious that American whites are better ball players than international whites.

Saying they would lose just goes to show the high level of automatic discrimination against American whites. They are all NBA players, and thus, by definition, are better players individually than the non-NBA guys who fill out the international rosters. I will stand by my claim that a team of the best whites from the US would beat the teams from other countries.

If you could assemble an all-star team of international whites, they would probably be the best team of all, beating any combination of American whites or blacks, or even an integrated American all-star team.But that is a different topic.
smiley17.gif
 

foobar75

Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
2,332
I've been following this thread from the beginning, and it's very entertaining. Unfortunately, I stopped watching the NBA on a regular basis about 5-6 years ago, and therefore, cannot contribute to this discussion in a meaningful way.


However, I know enough that, from a completely objective point ofview, TBG ishands-down the winner here. Even though he's merely stating an opinion, his arguments arevery well laid out and analyzed. The best point he made in this entire thread was the fact that while teams likeSpain and Argentina have PROVENplayers at the world level who can play defense, take it to the hoop, shoot the 3 as well as the mid-range jumper, your theoretical team hasn't proven anything, it's merely a team onpaper made up ofmostly NBA role players. I'm not at all convinced that these guys are being held back by the caste system, and are waiting to be unleashed and showcase all the hidden talents they're not permitted to display at the NBA level.


Do you really thinkif some of these guys are any good, they would purposefullybe held back, and designated a specific role, such as spot-up shooter? Iremember watching both Kapono and Korver in college, for instance,andthis was exactly their game then, and it is now. Neither player was an all-around talent like Ginobili during college, and all of suddenin the NBA, wasforced into a limited role. If that were true, howdo you describe the success of guys like Dirk, AK-47, Ginobili, Nash, Pau, Calderon, etc?How comeno one has relegated these guys to a singular, limited role?


Oh, and let me pre-emptively defend myself by saying that I'm not a drunk white fan brainwashed by the MSM, since that seems to be the primary accusation thrown at anyone who merely disagrees with your points.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Yes, Kapono and Korver are spot up jump shooters, I already pointed that out myself. Are you saying every white American is a spot up jump shooter?

You say Spain and Argentina "have PROVEN players at the world level who can play defense, take it to the hoop, shoot the 3 as well as the mid-range jumper".

Are you saying my team of white Americans hasn't proven those same things? You admitted you don't watch NBA, so why are you even talking?

"Mostly NBA role players"??? Are you just stupid? Every player I listed is an NBA starter.

"An all around talent like Ginobili during college" ??? You must be stupid, because he did not go to college. If you are saying no one in the NBA gets assigned a role on their team, you are just ignorant.

I have never called anyone a drunk white fan, you are again showing your lack of command of detail or fact.

The amazing thing about your list of international players (Dirk, Kirilenko, Nash, Pau, Calderon) is that only one of them even went to an American college. The one who did, Nash, only got ONE scholarship offer. Hmmm, weird, isn't it?

I never said every white American is "secretly" as good as Dirk and Ginobili, only being held back by the caste system. I said, TBGs perception of my team is flawed by caste stereotypes!

Seriously, foobar, you should probably just shut up.
 

foobar75

Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
2,332
89Glory said:
Yes, Kapono and Korver are spot up jump shooters, I already pointed that out myself. Are you saying every white American is a spot up jump shooter?


No, but you're implying that a lot of these guys can do more, if only they were permitted. I'm saying they can't. They play in the NBA because they've found their niche. They're very good at one thing, and that's more than enough to earn a roster spot and meaningful minutes.

You say Spain and Argentina "have PROVEN players at the world level who can play defense, take it to the hoop, shoot the 3 as well as the mid-range jumper".

Are you saying my team of white Americans hasn't proven those same things? You admitted you don't watch NBA, so why are you even talking?



I still watch the NBA, I just don't follow it with the same passion I did many years ago. Your team hasn't provenanything at the world level, since not of them haseverplayed for Team USA (except B. Miller who was the 12th man during 2006 World Championships, and M. Miller, whom I think deserved a spot on the 2008 team). They have proven they can be productive players at the NBA level, which is not the point I was trying to make. How is this any different that those 2002-2006 teams that were haphazardly thrown together?


"Mostly NBA role players"??? Are you just stupid? Every player I listed is an NBA starter.


No, they're not. Better check your list again, and please refrain from name calling, we're simply trying to argue two different view-points here.

"An all around talent like Ginobili during college" ??? You must be stupid, because he did not go to college. If you are saying no one in the NBA gets assigned a role on their team, you are just ignorant.


Again, no need for name calling. All I said was that when these guys went to college, they weren't all-around talents, such as a guy like Ginobili. I know Manu did not go to college in America, and he played in his ball in Italy. Ginobili is merely my example of a white player who's exceptionally talented. Of course I'm aware that every player has a role in their team, whether is spot-up shooter, rebounder, defensive specialist or the guy who can do it all. Your implication is that white players are stereotyped into 1 or 2 defined roles, when they can do so much more. I'm saying if they were good at more than 1 thing, no one would hold them back.

The amazing thing about your list of international players (Dirk, Kirilenko, Nash, Pau, Calderon) is that only one of them even went to an American college. The one who did, Nash, only got ONE scholarship offer. Hmmm, weird, isn't it?


Why would they? A lot of them come-up in systems of their respective countries and start playing professionally by the time they're 17-18. And when they reach their early-mid 20s, they're ready to play in the NBA. Given the chance to play professionally in Europe or play in college in America, the former is the better choice by far.

I never said every white American is "secretly" as good as Dirk and Ginobili, only being held back by the caste system. I said, TBGs perception of my team is flawed by caste stereotypes!

What's the point of all this, since we're dealing with a team on paper and hypothetical scenarios? If you want to play this game, I'll go along.


Let's say your team is headed by coach K. He's a good choice since he's always had a good allotment of white players at his disposal at Duke, and been very successfull. The team spends a full year playing and training together. The appropriate offensive and defensive systems are put in place to best leverage the talents of the players. In the end, they would still rank behind Spain and Argentina in the world stage. I'd say they would be fighting with Lithuania and Greece for 3rd best team in the world. They would be ahead of other respectable squads such as Russia, Australia, and Croatia.


Your assessment that this team would win Olympic gold is fantasy, since even the current Team USA, as good as they are, were pushed to the limit by Spain at the gold medal game. It would have been an equally close game against Argentina in the semis had Ginobili not been injured.
 

Jimmy Chitwood

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
8,975
Location
Arkansas
thatblackguy said:
Its not that I only appreciate uptempo style of play, its just the original team i saw up there i didint think was all that great, or would be all that great if they got cold, since if they did, very few of those guys could take it to the hoop.
no team is good if they get cold. if you know basketball, then you should know that. but i humored you and chose a completely different roster. however, i will point out that just because i chose different players in no way means i agree with your assertions on the roster in question. i just want to be clear. your analysis is off in several ways, in my opinion, but we're both moving on.

thatblackguy said:
Whats worse is when i started thinking of "white" replacements for most of the positions, most of them werent from this country, which kind of made it tough for me to replace guys, even then, i still said what they would have to do to win,
how do you think we at Caste Football feel? a country of 300 million people, the majority of whom (for the very short term, it appears) are white, can't produce even a sparse handful of white basketball players on par with those from MUCH less populous nations such as Argentina, Spain, Germany, etc.? it is VERY troubling to me, i assure you. and seeing as how the NBA doesn't give white Americans a fair opportunity to play in their league, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to come up with a lot of superstar white American NBAers.

thatblackguy said:
and just because i didint rate them over Argentina and Spain, 2 of the best teams in international ball who have guys who can get to the hoop and have elite outside shooting thats been PROVEN in world play,
again, don't you find it INCREDIBLY odd that smaller nations like Spain and Argentina produce FAR MORE white NBA/Olympic-caliber players than the USA? the fact that they can compete/defeat an all-black team from America should raise a HUGE red flag considering a total of ZERO white Americans made the USA roster...

thatblackguy said:
shouldnt be a reason for you to just assume "thats all i can appreciate".
i'm only going by what you say. i don't want to project motivations/thoughts onto you. if you want me to interpret things differently, then please be more clear. i will try my best to do the same.

thatblackguy said:
Now this team, i have seen a few of them in college, but even then i am not incredibly familiar with them.
again, for someone who is so certain of their stated opinion as "fact," it seems that you are sorely lacking in a wide base of knowledge. all of these players (with the exception of Chris Andersen who played ju-co ball before playing professionally in China) are well-known Division I-A superstars who played on national television numerous times in their collegiate careers. if you deign to assure us that there aren't enough white players who are good enough, then you ought to know at least who the great college players are that can't make the grade.

thatblackguy said:
The only ones i really know are Jordan, Gansey and Anderson. Running a squad like this is actually kind of better, you know why? Most of these guys have game no ones seen before, they are completely scouted just yet.
as i just stated, if no one has seen them, then it's only because no one wanted to watch. as for that being a bonus, well, i can see your point to an extent. however, i'd think every player i listed would prefer to have been given a legitimate shot at the NBA rather than toiling in relative obscurity.

thatblackguy said:
You could basically run just about whatever scheme you wanted depending on the strength of the team.
i agree completely, but likely for a very different reason.

thatblackguy said:
Individually though, i need to know who would really be doing what. What kind of offense if it. Who are the best finishers at the hoop. Who are the deep threats, who can create their own shot not just for themselves but also be a threat on the pass. Defensively whats important in international ball is not allowing open looks on that weakly placed 3pt line. Thats where most teams get killed, that 3pt line is a load of B.S and i hope they widen it someday
well, i will fill you in. below is a scouting report for my team. hope you enjoy!

one caveat before i get started. i will point out the rare exceptions in my post below, but otherwise it should be understood that EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on this roster has been type"Caste" and is regarded as a below-average athlete, possessing no lateral quickness, barely enough coordination to walk across a room without bumping their head on the ceiling, the complete inability to guard a small child from any too many cookies, and less upside than vince young in a physics lab. that is to say, even in the face of facts that prove this to be un-true, these so-called truths are accepted as written in stone. however, several posters on this site have provided numerous statistical/measurable reports that show these athletes possess equal-or-superior physical measurables and performance than their "more talented" black peers.

here goes.



Point guard: Jared Jordan (6-2, 182, 2nd round, 45th overall, 2007 Los Angeles Clippers)

led the nation for two years in a row in assists, the first person to do so since former long-time NBA guard Avery Johnson two decades prior. most modern comparisons, not suprisingly, are to Steve Nash. however, aside from their tremendous passing skills and being short and white, their games aren't very similar. Jordan isn't as good an outside shooter, getting his points more like Tony Parker on runners in the lane and pull-up, mid-range jumpers/floater, and is a better rebounder than Nash, having garnered multiple triple-doubles (points, assists, rebounds) in college.

Jordan's best skill, by far, is his ability to set up teammates for easy buckets. no other player in recent college basketball was able to do so. and Jordan did it with a team of not very talented players. somehow, despite being labelled as slow, Jordan can get in the lane with ease, and when he does so can either score (his second choice) or create easy buckets for teammates. his uncanny vision and passing acumen is impressive, to put it mildly. and don't just take my word for it, here's an NBA scout's take:

Orlando Pre-Draft Camp: Final Recap
June 4, 2007
Jared Jordan's statistical accomplishments at Marist were well known, but nobody was quite sure what he would be able to accomplish in the draft camp setting or at the next level. There were questions about his shooting and athleticism, with the MAAC giving little in the way of competition or exposure.

But the ability to run a team is certainly developed above the shoulders, and tends to translate over better than other tools. Jordan might be undersized and a step slow, but this week he proved once and for all just what a special point guard he was at Marist and will be as a professional. The first two games were run almost to perfection - Jordan handled more athletic defenders with relative ease, created basket after basket with crisp full court passing and dazzling looks from within offensive sets.
here's a small sampling of what he can do with the ball in his hands.

vid 1
vid 2
vid 3

Drew Neitzel (6-0, 185, un-drafted)

Neitzel is a score-first point guard, plain and simple. he has the ability to put points up in bunches, but is unselfish and more than capable of creating for his teammates (4th all-time in assists at Michigan State). a clutch performer, he is willing and able to hit the big shot when his team needs it, whether it be a three pointer, a pull-up jumper off the dribble, or from the free throw line where he is virtually automatic.

not ever recognized as a lock-down defender, somehow always seemed to outplay taller, "quicker," "more athletic" point guards. while undersized, Neitzel plays bigger than his height and is one of the toughest players, both mentally and physically, you'll ever see on the court.

his role on this team would be as the back-up point guard and scorer off the bench.


Shooting guard: Jaycee Carroll (6-2, 175, un-drafted)

one of the best shooters to ever play the game, Carroll has the 3rd highest career 3 point field goal percentage in NCAA history and is number 52 in career points. he is the Aggies' all-time scoring leader and holds 9 other school records.

whether it be hitting a jumper from deeeeeeep, finishing above the rim, curling off a screen, or hitting a pair of free throws, Carroll is a dominant scorer. somewhat undersized for an NBA 2-guard, Carroll has been working on developing his point guard skills. but it is plain to anyone who watches that Carroll can score. a lot. but again, here's an NBA scout's take:

Sweet-shooting Jaycee Carroll showed that he can do a lot more than just make shots today, going off on a scoring barrage (19 points in 22 minutes) that had to impress anyone that stuck around for the third contest of the day. He took the ball to the basket aggressively time after time, finishing with an array of floaters and pull-up jumpers, and getting to the free throw line at will. We're not talking about a guy that is going to stand out in a crowd as far as his looks (he's a skinny 6-2 guy with underwhelming athleticism), but he surely knows how to score, which is probably why he was such a popular fixture on the private workout circuit in the month of June.

you'll note that Carroll is said to have a lack of athleticism, however, he was considered by many to be the best dunker in the Big West conference. here's some highlights to show what he brings to the table...

vid 1
vid 2
vid 3


Adam Haluska (6-5, 210, 2nd round, 43rd overall, 2007 New Orleans Hornets)

in his last season in Iowa in the NCAA he averaged 20.5 points 4.6 rebounds and 2.6 assists per game. in 11 games in Iowa in the NBDL he averaged 18.7 points 4.7 rebounds and 2.9 assists per game.

Haluska is an impressive physical specimen who has excellent athleticism, especially when attacking the basket. he can get to the rim regularly due to his quick first step. he has the ability to finish shots with a high degree of difficulty while making it look easy. he absorbs contact well and displays some excellent body control when in the air. this is even harder to stop considering he is a terrific free throw shooter. he can score above the rim, from mid-range, or long range. despite being Iowa's only true scoring option as a senior, was routinely assigned to guard the opposition's best player. but he's alleged to be a bad defender, of course.

Haluska's biggest problem, aside from being a white b-baller of course, is his tendency to be too unselfish. sometimes he doesn't take over games when his team is playing sluggishly, rather waiting for the game to come to him. while this is a team-first attitude, sometimes your team needs a bucket, and Haluska is more than capable of getting it... if he remembers to take over.

Haluska did a good job taking the ball to the hoop as well, using his decent athleticism and first step along with the ability to draw contact and still get a shot off. He was fouled multiple times driving to the basket, still getting a decent shot off on most of them by protecting the ball with his body, and he converted all seven of his free-throw attempts with his smooth shooting stroke.

you'll note that the scout only calls Haluska a decent athlete... that is very odd, considering he is possibly the best all-around athlete in college basketball when he played. just forget for a moment that he could've played collegiate baseball or football and take a gander at what he did as a track athlete before he focused primarily on hoops in college:

Iowa player bio said:
as a senior, recorded one of the most prolific performances in Iowa State Track & Field Championship history, becoming only the fourth athlete in the 97 year history of the state meet to win four individual events, claiming victories in the 100 meters (10.91), 200 meters (21.56), 400 meters (48.48) and long jump (22 5 1/4). broke the Class 3A 100 meter state record with a 10.79 clocking in the preliminaries.
if he is just a decent athlete, what does it take to be a great one?


Mike Gansey (6-4, 206, un-drafted)

i found a lengthy scouting report on Gansey. please note all the back-handed compliments such as "gritty," "desire," "smart," "hustle," "tough," and so forth, as if they were bad things. more importantly, somehow he has those assets in sufficient abundance to allow him to overcome his almost complete dearth of physical ability. read for yourself:

Offensively, Gansey is outstanding running off curls to free himself up for open shots, helping him shoot an incredibly efficient 55% from the field. He moves extraordinarily well on offense and is constantly in motion making his matchup work extremely hard to defend him. Gansey knows how to use screens well and is very smart in the way he sets up defenders to run into them.

Much like his other West Virginia teammate Kevin Pittnosgle, Gansey can also stick it from the three-point line at a superb rate. Gansey shot 43% from behind the arc on the year on just under 6 attempts per game, but can also knock down shots equally well from mid-range. He has a quick release, deep range and excellent mechanics on his jump shot, and can also take and make his jump-shot under pressure. Combine his ability to shoot accurately with his ability to run around screens or curls and we are talking about a potentially dangerous weapon.

If the jump-shot is not available to him, Gansey will not force the issue and instead shows outstanding court vision finding the open man, being extremely patient and efficient in the way he reads defenses.

One of the most impressive parts about Gansey's game is that he is a very good rebounder on offense and defense. Despite his lack of size and great athletic ability, he gets rebounds from his ability to relentlessly go after the ball, even if that means putting his body in harm. Usually he gets to the ball quicker and faster than the opponents do because he anticipates very well and has the sheer desire to pull it down. Despite only being listed at 6-4 and possessing a pretty frail frame, Gansey led West Virginia in rebounding on the season.

Defensively, Gansey also does a great job anticipating and getting in the passing lanes, being pretty smart and pesky in this area and showing plenty of toughness.

Gansey is also a decent ball handler, not being a great shot-creator, but having the ability to bring the ball up court, slash to the basket when the lane is open or use the quick pull-up jumper from mid-range. Gansey catches defenses off guard when they try to deny his 3-point shot, taking his man off the dribble and making his way to the basket with moderate success if the opportunity is available for him. Despite his lack of ideal size, he is not afraid to go into the post by any means and can finish creatively around the rim.

What might be the most valuable part of Gansey's game is the fact that he is a very gritty basketball player. Gansey is a tough competitive kid on the court, not being afraid of contact, showing plenty of hustle and all the willingness in the world to take charges, hit the deck or scrap for a loose ball. Physically he is in good shape even though he is not an extremely gifted athlete, being able to play for long stretches without leaving the court.

His intangibles appear to be superb, whether it's his calm demeanor on and off the floor, his outstanding feel for the game or his terrific work ethic and attitude.

In the clutch is when Gansey is truly at his best, as his ridiculous 19 points in just two overtime sessions in the 2005 NCAA tournament will attest. In the unlikely event that Gansey accomplishes nothing for the rest of his career, his place in basketball history is already secure with that one incredible performance. He's been very clutch in many other games too, but that outing will be a tough act to match.

55% shooter from the floor, 43% from 3-point range.

so, somehow despite being the best perimeter defender in the Big East, and having the ability to knock down shots from all over the court, and being able to get to balls faster than anyone else on the floor, and being able to create his own shot at will, and rebounding like a guy much larger, and finishing around the rim, and being clutch under pressure, and being able to play/guard multiple positions, and playing without making mistakes... despite all that, Gansey really isn't that good.

as a side note, Gansey finished second in Ohio Mr. Basketball voting behind Lebron James, but his biggest scholarship offer out of high school was to St. Bonaventure.

wow. just wow.



Small forward: Chuck Eidson (6-7, 210, un-drafted) left handed.

Eidson is like a mirror-image to Grant Hill, back before Hill got hurt. a point-forward like Hill, the difference is Eidson can actually play defense but doesn't dunk as well. in fact, he is a terrific defender and can guard three positions (pg, 2-guard, small forward). has a terrific mid-range game, and is a brilliant passer. an efficient ball handler who rarely makes mistakes, he can hit the three but doesn't take too many of them.

one of the best all-around players to ever play in the SEC, led team in assists, steals, and was 2nd in points and rebounds as a senior. Led SEC in steals as a sophomore. 89 ST senior season 2nd most in USC history behind his 93 ST figure as a freshman (2nd in SEC history) ... 89 ST senior season 5th in SEC history. played significant career minutes at the 1, 2 and 3 positions. Led team in hustle stats (REB, AS, ST, BS, ST) in each of his first two seasons. fell off the NBA radar when he suffered a knee injury that he tried to play through as a junior. ended up having to take a red-shirt (medical) year, and when he came back NBA scouts suddenly remembered he was a white kid and moved on.

has been dominating in Europe for the past several years, where he is beloved. here's a brief highlight video of his game:

video

and here is an interview/article that shows just how respected he is overseas:

link


Nik Caner-Medley (6-8, 230, un-drafted) left handed.

a terrific leaper and defender, Caner-Medley played much of his career at Maryland out of position as a post player, guarding opposing power forwards and centers. an aggressive scorer, prefers to attack the basket off the dribble and finish above the rim rather than settle for long jumpers, though he does have a nice mid-range jumper that he uses frequently. his ability to guard bigger men and his love for contact combined with his quick first step and leaping ability make him a frequent mis-match.

As a junior, he averaged a team-high 16.9 ppg in ACC contests, finished third on the team in rebounding (6.2 rpg) and second in steals (43). As a senior, again led the Terps in scoring at 15.3 ppg (16.3 during ACC competition), and tallied 6.3 rbs, and 2 apg. He shot 83% FT and 36% from the 3 point line.

After graduating from Maryland, Caner-Medley suffered a serious injury at the pre-draft camp, which set him back for quite some time, and has since been plying his trade overseas.



Joe Alexander (6-8, 230, 8th overall, 2008 Milwaukee Bucks)

according to his physical measurables recorded in pre-draft camps, Alexander might be the most athletic player his size in the history of the NBA. no kidding. but he is very, very raw.

i found a nice scouting report on Alexander here: link

basically, it says that he has the ability to attack the rim at will, and finish in a crowd. he has a nice fade-away and a nice mid-range jumper. he's not a great ball handler, which is a weakness, but he can creat for himself. also, he is a very, very good passer. defensively, he can guard both bigger and smaller men due to his strength, length, quickness, and leaping ability.

keep in mind that he's only been playing organized basketball for about five years now, which means that his learning curve is still pretty steep as far as NBA talent-evaluators are concerned. That is certainly a good thing when you begin to project where he'll be a few years down the road, especially when you take his work ethic into consideration. and his work ethic is the stuff of legends. here is just one story on it: link

for some highlights, click the links below. he is impressive in the air.

vid 1
vid 2
vid 3


Power forward: Casey Calvary (6-8, 235, un-drafted)

the old man of the club, Calvary staked his claim to greatness by putting Gonzaga basketball on the map. before he came along, Gonzaga was fondly remembered as the little school that produced John Stockton. with Calvary leading the charge (pun!), Gonzaga went to three-straight Sweet Sixteens, including the Elite Eight in '99, twice losing to the eventual tournament champs.

came off the bench as a frosh, and dunked in Kenyon Martin's mouth. then stared him down. he had 13 points in the game. martin had 16. he also has a broken backboard in his resume.

Proof: broken backboard
dunk on martin

a 2nd team All-American and two-time WCC POY, Calvary was known for being a monster around the rim. a powerful, and explosive dunker on one end, he was an intimidating shot blocker on the other. twice led the WCC in field goal percentage, showing his ability to get to the rim for high-percentage dunks and lay-ups. not a special rebounder for his size, Calvary made up for this minor lack with his passing ability and his ability to pull opposing big men away from the lane, shooting 40% from 3-point range for his career. left Gonzaga as the school's all-time leading shot blocker, 4th leading rebounder, and 7th leading scorer.

physically strong and aggressive almost to the point of madness, Calvary was regarded by both teammates and many opposing players and coaches as the toughest player they ever faced.

has dominated in Australia, France, Japan, Puerto Rico, and the CBA since being ignored by the NBA.



Chris Andersen (6-10, 230, un-drafted)

known most, and ridiculed, for missing dunks at the NBA Dunk Contest, the Birdman also was kicked out of the NBA for violating its drug policy. however, before that he was one of the most athletic big men in the NBA.

his high-flying feats resulted in dunks or blocked shots, depending on which end of the court he was on. you can see a sample here:

video

an athletic power forward with very good mobility and leaping ability, but a limited feel for the game, mostly effective as a shot-blocker and rebounder. displays tremendous foot speed and quickness for a player his size.

was the first player to be called up from the NBDL in 2001. expelled from the League in 2006 for violating the League's drug policy; reinstated in 2008, and (understandably) struggled badly in the brief looks he got.

an adequate offensive player due to his athleticism, not his skill. gets the vast majority of his offense from dump downs from drives, offensive rebounds, and off of cuts. doesn't display much of a jump shot, and prefers to attack defenders than shoot when open. not very apt at putting the ball on the floor for more than one or two dribbles at a time. moves extremely well without the ball. loves to run the floor and dunk on the break. great offensive rebounder. has the lateral quickness necessary to guard the power forward spot and the strength to defend some centers. Will commit some silly fouls.



Josh McRoberts (6-10, 240, 2nd round, 37th overall, 2007 Portland Trail Blazers, now with Pacers) left handed.

McRoberts is a strange story. he has the all around skill and talent to be a superstar, but since he left Duke after his sophomore season, it's as if he entered the Twilight Zone. an athletic big man, he is much more like a small forward than a center, possessing the ability to create for himself or teammates from the perimeter while lacking a back-to-the-basket game. has a terrific mid-range game, and though he takes a few threes isn't going to scare you from there. a brilliant passer, McRoberts is very dangerous with the ball in his hands, and due to his ability to see the floor so well, moves tremendously well without the ball. and as such, he gets many opportunities to receive alley-oop passes.

McRoberts loves to finish above the rim and run the floor, but is as apt to make the stellar pass for a dunk as he is to be the one who catches and flushes it. a mis-match due to his quickness and ball skills, he's never had any playing time at the NBA and is now considered a bust. perhaps being sent to the Pacers will revive his career?

on December 19, 2006 against Kent State, McRoberts had a career-high 19 points, six blocks, six rebounds, four assists, and four steals making him the first Duke player to tally at least four in all five categories. he was a phenom in college before fading away toward the end of his sophomore year.

vid 1
vid 2
vid 3
vid 4


Center: Kevin Love (6-10, 255, 5th overall, 2008 Memphis Grizzlies and traded to Minnesota) after his freshman year at UCLA.

at the end of the 2007-2008 regular season, Love was named a first-team All-American and Pac-10 freshman of the year and player of the year. he was named to the all Pac-10 team as well as the all Pac-10 freshman team. he helped lead UCLA to the regular season Pacific 10 conference championship, as well as the conference tournament championship and a #1 seed in the 2008 NCAA Tournament. averaged 17.5 points, 10.6 rebounds, 1.9 assists, and 1.4 blocks on the year while shooting 56% from the floor, 77% from the line, and 35% from 3-point range.

in his first career NBA Summer League game against the Dallas Mavericks, Love had 18 points and 13 rebounds, and in his second game against the Los Angeles Lakers he had 18 points and 17 rebounds.

a complete player. Love can score, rebound, and defend, even though many can't fathom why he can do the first two and insist he can't do the third. a terrific passer, especially on outlets for the fast break, Love gets many buckets for his team before the defense has even crossed half court.

here's an NBA scout's take on Love:

One of Love's more notable strides as the season has gone on has been his three point shot, which he's using much more frequently, and having good success with, hitting for 37% from deep. He also will occasionally use a shot fake from behind the arc that he follows up with a drive to the basket, but it's not something he's consistent with, as his quickness isn't great and his ball-handling, while respectable, could still improve.

Love's prowess as a passer on the offensive end is something that has been well publicized, especially with his outlet passes, which he throws with exceptional speed and accuracy. He's also a good passer out of the post, though, making passes to fellow post players and cutters alike, showing good court vision and decision-making.

On the defensive end, Love plays a very smart game and is always hustling, showing his most prowess as a man-to-man defender in the post. Here, he holds excellent position and does a very good job of always keeping his hands up, getting a good deal of blocked shots when opposing players try to shoot over him. Most of his blocks come in this vein, as he doesn't really have the athleticism to be much of a force as a help defender, even though he almost always makes the right rotations. While Love usually does well defending the post, he really only excels with players that try to go over or through him, showing problems against players with quick feet who will try to out-finesse him, which is concerning for those who project him as a power forward at the next level. For those who project him as a center, he may have problems defensively there as well, as many centers in the NBA will be able to shoot over him.

On the perimeter, Love hustles hard and shows a good stance on defense, but he often has to give up too much space to stay in front of his man, and this is definitely a concern at the next level, especially if he projects as a power forward. Love has problems with the pick-and-roll as well, not showing the quickness to consistently hedge and recover, despite his smart play.

Aside from intangibles, Love's greatest strength would probably be his rebounding ability, something that is very likely to translate to the next level. He establishes excellent inside position, shows very good timing, and has a nonstop motor for pursuing loose boards. This is especially evident on his own misses, as he usually gets his own put-back when he isn't able to score on the first try.

you'll note that, again, he has almost no athletic ability whatsoever, yet somehow manages to dominate those who do... interesting, isn't it? here's a video that shows a bit about his game.

video

not bad for a "stiff," huh?



Steven Hill (7-0, 250, un-drafted) left handed.

the best post defender in the SEC during his tenure at Arkansas, Hill managed to put his name in the record books for blocked shots despite sitting an inordinate amount of time on the bench in foul trouble for being whistled for "playing defense while white."

suffered from a team in turmoil during his time at Arkansas. was the only white player on a team that suffered from tremendous strife in the lockerroom and off the court. one saw visual evidence of that when Hill hit a game-winning shot against top-seed Georgia in the SEC Tournament and was ignored by his teammates in the post-game celebration, except for the bench guys and white walk-ons of course.

had 318 career blocked shots at Arkansas, ranking second all-time. as a senior averaged 2.1 blocks per game to rank 4th in the conference and shot 68% from the floor and 59% from the free throw line. only had 87 field goal attempts, however. SEC Defensive POY as a junior. Hill finished second in the SEC in blocks each of his first three years. career-high 10 blocks in a game. also had a game with 8 blocks, and two 7-block outings.

Hill shot better than 64% from the field as a senior, but that was mainly due to the fact that he only attempted four shots per game, and the majority of his points came off of dunks and put backs. his post game is very underdeveloped, but one can see that he is starting to develop. while he is very good at getting position on the block and holding it, Hill rarely got touches in the post.

despite his shortcomings in the post, Hill moves exceptionally well for a big guy without the basketball. he has good open floor speed and is a great trailer on the break, often flying down the paint for a thunderous dunk. in the half court set, Hill is surprisingly good at slipping behind the defense; he picked up a high number of alley-oops last season thanks to his innate ability to find open spaces around the basket. however, as i said before, he rarely got touches with the Razorbacks. his teammates almost never looked his way, despite his being by far their most athletic big man and best finisher above the rim.

Hill's game is inside the paint; he hasn't shown that he can step outside and shoot or really put the ball on the floor much.

Where Hill has excelled is defense. his length, athleticism, and anticipation make him a great shot blocker. he does a good job at staying on his feet, and holds his position well. where Hill has to improve is his rebounding. he has never averaged better than 4.4 rebounds per game, which is unacceptable for a player his size.

vid 1
vid 2

a Portland Trailblazer scout had this to say about Hill after his performance in the summer leagues:
a 7-footer from Arkansas, blocked 2.2 shots per game "and showed he can play in our league," Pritchard says. "He did a great job defensively our last two games. He has to become a better rebounder, but he's an NBA shot-blocker."

at 250 pounds, Hill is still lanky.
 

Jimmy Chitwood

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
8,975
Location
Arkansas
so, you can see that my team would be VERY good on defense, would likely be the best passing team to suit up for the USA since the original Dream Team, and would be very versatile.

i don't know if they'd win the gold, but like i said before they would be hard to guard and fun to watch.
smiley1.gif
 
G

Guest

Guest
Thanks for the great scouting report, JC. Nice players to keep an eye on.

Foobar, your logic is painfully tainted by caste thinking with its anti-white American bias. Basically, this is your argument: American whites are not as good in the NBA as American blacks, and so they would do worse in international competitions, especially against international white teams who have "proven" themselves.

Here is what international competition actually proves: teams with great shooting, great passing, and great teamwork do very well, regardless of NBA stardom or supposed athleticism. The caste system of the NBA which rewards selfish individual play and "marketability" does not apply.

It is no accident that there has been a history of international studs getting to the NBA only to ride the pine (such as Spanoulis and Bellinelli, or even Jasikevicius).

In foobar's mind, international guys who, with rare exception, individually can't even prove themselves in the NBA, are somehow better than the white Americans who have proven themselves in the NBA. Caste-thinking to a T. Edited by: 89Glory
 

foobar75

Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
2,332
89Glory said:
Thanks for the great scouting report, JC. Nice players to keep an eye on.

Foobar, your logic is painfully tainted by caste thinking with its anti-white American bias. Basically, this is your argument: American whites are not as good in the NBA as American blacks, and so they would do worse in international competitions, especially against international white teams who have "proven" themselves.

Here is what international competition actually proves: teams with great shooting, great passing, and great teamwork do very well, regardless of NBA stardom or supposed athleticism. The caste system of the NBA which rewards selfish individual play and "marketability" does not apply.

It is no accident that there has been a history of international studs getting to the NBA only to ride the pine (such as Spanoulis and Bellinelli, or even Jasikevicius).

In foobar's mind, international guys who, with rare exception, individually can't even prove themselves in the NBA, are somehow better than the white Americans who have proven themselves in the NBA. Caste-thinking to a T.


I would like nothing more for there to be all-star caliber white American players in the NBA, like there used to be until the 90s, and then they disappared. Unfortunately, this all begins at the lower levels, so white kids simply don't bother playing basketball and move to other sports, where they can excel and play with other like minded folks, instead of with thugs from the hood.


In other countries, this is clearly not the case, and the success of all the white teams we've discussed in International basketball proves it. I just don't see that we currently have world caliber American white players who can form a team of their own and win major international competitions. Our all black teams kept losing, and the best team we sent in many years still got pushed to the limit at the gold medal game.


Bottom line, until fundemantal changes are made at the much lower levels, you'll never ever see another Bird, Stockton, McHale, Mullin, Issel, Chambers, should I go on?
 

ThatBlackGuy

Newbie
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19
because of the way the reply system works here i will reply to the post like this:

For one, i dont watch college basketball much, for one, its not big here in the bay area, for two since probably 2001 i have had a real lack of interest in it since most of the best players were staying one year and then going pro. Also, alot of the guys staying in college years at a time would end up going pro and not having that success like previous years, especially with how weak the draft gets lately in the second round, alot of guys seem to go pro in some other country, come back and possibly have a better career at 25 or 28, I.E Steven Jackson, Raja Bell etc. College ball got harder for me to follow as i got older, NCAA Football the stars tend to stay longer, so you get longer to evaluate their game, so if you miss one year, or two years, its not too late to see them a jr year. Also, alot of those guys whos descriptions i read play in markets i have no chance of seeing unless its the tournament. Another thing, being good in college isnt being good in the pros or international ball, being a great player in the ACC/SEC etc is great, but we dont know how it translates well into the worlds game against pros who have been going up against outstanding competition since they were teens (playing against grown men) as opposed to being a great player in a NCAA system thats been greatly depleted the last 10 years. Usually its not even until the draft or the tourney i get familiar with NCAA stars, so unfortunately i dont offer much insight or counter opinions on your college selection, i just read the descriptions and trust your opinion.

HOWEVER, that doesnt mean i think this team wouldnt win, you put together a good argument for your selected side. However you may feel about that team from the initial post, i was more than fair in the way i crtiqued those players and to be honest, when i showed that team to others you probably feel are "caste brainwashed" that team was viewed as being flatout scrubs that would get ran off the court in international ball, so you see, i am VERY alone among regular NBA fans who would even give that team a second look. Honestly, in this country and in this day and age, having a team of "all white" or "all black" even, doesnt really reflect or promote the type of diversity this country has as far as talent goes, but thats another story,
 
G

Guest

Guest
That is the big question, isn't it? What happened to America's white all-stars?

Foobar, you suggest that whites are not interested in the sport to the same degree they were, but I don't think so.The average white kid may be more interested in X-games than a generation ago, but its not like those activities are soaking up all the tall white basketball talent.

I think the best explanation is found in the drafting/hiring practices of the NBA itself, with its emphasis on spectacle and leaping ability, along with the superstar treatment given to its chosen marketing vehicles.

We have seen since 2000 how NBA stars and their NBA-specific skills translate poorly to the international stage. When you remove basketball from its NBA-particular rules and star-friendly officiating, the real sport reemerges. Turns out good shooting, good passing, and solid team play never went out of style.

Although the white American stars of today might not measure up individually to their counterparts of the 80's, I think their collective set of shooting and passing skills would do very well in the international game of today. The idea that less skilled and less athletic foreigners can somehow make it happen, but white Americans can't, that just doesn't make sense.

I mean, just break it down position by position, comparing my team to Spain. By NBA standards, everyone on Spain except Pau is a scrub. Versus the white NBA-ers, who, considering the starting five, are all NBA starters and all flirting with all-star status.

The reflexive dismissal of white American basketball excellence is part of the caste system. Yet just among my starting five, we have among the NBA leaders in blocks (Kaman), rebounds (Kaman and Lee), charges drawn and steals (Dunleavy and Hinrich), field goal percentage (Kaman, Lee, and Miller) and 3 point shooting (Miller, Dunleavy).In other words, every aspect of the game. That would be a damn solid team. Edited by: 89Glory
 

jaxvid

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Messages
7,247
Location
Michigan
foobar75 said:
I've been following this thread from the beginning, and it's very entertaining.  Unfortunately, I stopped watching the NBA on a regular basis about 5-6 years ago, and therefore, cannot contribute to this discussion in a meaningful way. 


However, I know enough that, from a completely objective point of view, TBG is hands-down the winner here.  Even though he's merely stating an opinion, his arguments are very well laid out and analyzed.  .

I disagree completely, from an objective point of view Jimmy Chitwood wins hands down with his detailed information filled posts over TBG's opinion filled screeds.

And your assertion that whites in America have given up the game is ridiculous, there is not a rural or suburban high school in America that is not full of white kids that work very hard at the game. The college level has lots of very good white players. It's the NBA where the whites disappear. I wonder why?
 

guest301

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
4,246
Location
Ohio
pt.guard2 said:
Maple Leaf said:
Black Guy: you sound a little bit queer. Are you a gay? If you are, are you a married gay?

Huh? Where did this come from?

I was wondering the same thing.
 

Jimmy Chitwood

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
8,975
Location
Arkansas
thatblackguy said:
because of the way the reply system works here i will reply to the post like this...
what does that mean? i'm answering you point for point, yet you can't answer me back. interesting, especially for someone who claims to be so certain that white cats can't hang with the homeboys at the NBA/Olympic level.

it's interesting that the guys you mentioned about playing overseas... you are right about the players you mentioned. however, i'd like to point out two points of fact regarding that idea. 1) both guys you named (and i'll venture to say the "etc." guys as well) are black. why can't you think of white American players who have gone to Europe and come back to be successful? because the NBA ignores them, that's why. how do i know? because 2) with the exception of the youngsters on my team, all the guys on my squad have dominated overseas hoops. yet none have gotten the call to be on an NBA roster.

thatblackguy said:
i was more than fair in the way i crtiqued those players and to be honest, when i showed that team to others you probably feel are "caste brainwashed" that team was viewed as being flatout scrubs that would get ran off the court in international ball, so you see, i am VERY alone among regular NBA fans who would even give that team a second look.
while i disagree with your scouting report on the earlier white team, i have no problem believing that you are more open to the dialogue than most NBA "fans." i would imagine that most white "fans" would strongly denounce an all-white team, too, for much the same reasons your associates held.

89Glory said:
That is the big question, isn't it? What happened to America's white all-stars?
good question, mate.
smiley2.gif


89Glory said:
I think the best explanation is found in the drafting/hiring practices of the NBA itself, with its emphasis on spectacle and leaping ability, along with the superstar treatment given to its chosen marketing vehicles.

We have seen since 2000 how NBA stars and their NBA-specific skills translate poorly to the international stage. When you remove basketball from its NBA-particular rules and star-friendly officiating, the real sport reemerges. Turns out good shooting, good passing, and solid team play never went out of style.
right again! that's the thing with so many fans today, most of whom don't understand the game. there are NUMEROUS playing styles that are effective/winning in basketball. however, all most people know/see is the one-on-one isolation game mixed in with a little pick-and-roll; ie. the NBA.

there is a lot more to basketball than just that. however, most folks, including several in this thread, seem to think being able to pass, shoot a jumper, and play an unselfish, hard-nosed team game isn't worth two cents. that's a shame, because it really is a joy to watch that brand of b-ball.

one last thing. anyone who plays basketball knows it is a LOT easier to guard a guy who can't shoot than it is to guard a guy who can score from outside. preferably, a team would have players who can do both. but sadly the NBA has become filled with guys who can only jump high.

89Glory said:
I mean, just break it down position by position, comparing my team to Spain. By NBA standards, everyone on Spain except Pau is a scrub. Versus the white NBA-ers, who, considering the starting five, are all NBA starters and all flirting with all-star status.
this is an excellent point. an even better example would have been the Greek National team that beat the USA in the last World Championships. that team only had one player who had even been in an NBA training camp.

who was it? the fat black center, of course.

don't confuse me with the fact that he was the last man added to the team, the last off the bench, the least talented on the squad, and so obese he could only play for about 5-7 minutes a game.

no, he was black, and therefore he was much better and far more worthy to be looked at by the NBA than all those pasty white "gym rats" who lit up the scoreboard. even ESPN's lone video highlight of the game showed "baby shaq" making a lay-up, completely with talking head commentary that raved about his "power"... regardless of the fact it was his only basket of the game and had no impact whatsoever on the outcome.

sure, there's no agenda and no bias against white ballers. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
 

jared

Mentor
Joined
Aug 16, 2006
Messages
721
Location
Texas
I remember those Greece USA highlights too. ESPN totally made it look like the black Greek made all the difference.
 

ThatBlackGuy

Newbie
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19
Jimmy Chitwood said:
thatblackguy said:
because of the way the reply system works here i will reply to the post like this...

what does that mean? i'm answering you point for point, yet you can't answer me back. interesting, especially for someone who claims to be so certain that white cats can't hang with the homeboys at the NBA/Olympic level.


I answered you on the points i felt i needed to, i read your scouting report and agreed with your assessment and thats really all i needed to say. What do you want me to do, argue for the sake of arguing? In certain instances i agreed with you, on others i didint, those points i didint agree with you or couldnt answer viably i addressed, there was no need to go point for point. The reply system i said annoys me because it quotes the person you quoted as well, in a long post like you had, its really frustrating to try to get a good reply in without having to dissect and erase things like that, so i gave you the reply i would in a more general sense and addressed what i felt needed to addressed. As far as your team goes, like i said, i can only go by description, and since this is basically a big fantasy draft, i agreed if they had a TEAM like that, playing together for a certain amount of years and with each player knowing their role, it could work, i dont know what results it would yeild, but i didint see a reason why fielding that team would be a problem.

How could i "claim" certain white cats cant hang on the olympic/nba level when its true, and its just as true for certain blacks, thats really rediculous for several reasons, that could apply to anyone, any race, at any time.
 
Top