Vince Young

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans' started by a-train, Feb 10, 2007.

  1. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    I saw an ESPN classic replay a few years ago of a game involving Florida from 1979. When they showed the team's starting lineup on defense it was majority black, clearly going Caste, but both the starting cornerbacks were white whereas the two safeties were black, probably reflecting the relative importance of the two positions, much like offensive tackles are often black but centers are still usually white. Cornerback obviously takes relative speed, but when so many black CBs and WRs in the NFL are only 4.5 and 4.6 guys (and slower than that as they get older), thenotion that whites can't playCB is as ludicrous as the taboo against them at WR and RB.
     
  2. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    OK Shogun, here is my long explanation to you, if you care to read this. This basically contains all my theories of favoritism toward blacks for the few skills blacks have a slight edge at the expense of the handful of areas whites have a slight advantage. I looked at the U.S census that shows the United States is 66% white and 13% black currently and than looked at relative skills between the two races which overall are pretty similar. Basically their shouldn't be huge deviations for most positions from the ratio in the U.S of black to white.

    I kept this just between white and black (omitting other races) and although we are all very similar there are three areas where blacks have a small advantage. At the highest level any small advantage can be vital.

    Looking at blacks and whites aptitude for football talent. IMO whites are slightly stronger, we are equally quick and have just as effective agility to blacks, we have slightly better on field awareness to make the play that the opponent gives you. However blacks have a small advantage in speed and backpedaling and cutting at full speed.

    I have looked at the NFL combine lists for CBs and Aqib Talib was the slowest 1st round CB this year running a 4.48 on a slower combine track. Last year the Giant's Aaron Ross was the slowest in the 1st round running a 4.44 if I am not mistaken. This year Brandon Flowers was considered an elite CB, but after running a 4.55 at the NFL combine he dropped to the mid 2nd round. Some were saying that his 4.55 even on a slower Combine track would never allow him to guard a true # 1 speed demon WR.

    At positions where strength and field analysis is very important whites would be overrepresented. For instance I think TE is a great position for whites, you need field smarts, quickness, strength for blocking, hands, route running ability, toughness etc. You have to be a great all round athlete.

    As far as RBs go, whites are equal as far as their burst from a starting point (if not better) to blacks. We have equal field sense and agility. Whites may be slightly better at breaking tackles and pass blocking. Whites tend to cut in more of a slashing style, where blacks tend to have a quicker darting cut, but both can be equally effective. And as I already said blacks have a slight edge in speed and cutting at full speed.

    Whites may be better for finding the seam through the line of scrimmage with a one or two cut from the hand off and then a quick burst through the line. In the open field moving full speed I would give a small advantage to blacks to break really long runs. But as we know 40+ yard runs are very rare for blacks as well. Eddie George had two in his entire 10.000 yard career. Speed demon Reggie Bush's career long run so far is 23 yards. [​IMG] 10, 20 and 30 yard burst should be more important to RBs than a 40 yard clip.

    I would dare say that whites could be as much as 70% of NFL RBs, but in analyzing lots of h.s prospects, I think there is a "slightly higher rate" of elite talent in a given equally large sample of black population to whites for RBs. This does not mean that whites could never become NFL pro-bowl RBs. Jesse Lumsden, Sam McGuffie, maybe even Tre Smith, Danny Woodhead (or Hester as a Bettis type) have that type of potential. However I think blacks would certainly make up more than their 13% membership in the U.S populous in an NFL RB census. And of course I forgot to mention the very common black obsession to never give up on their pro football/ basketball dream.

    I know their is a lot of untapped white rural H.S RB talent that Rivals would not even sniff at, so 70 or even 75% or so white at RB is certainly a possibility, that is why my 60% white at RB is my "estimate." And if the league were fair FBs would carry the rock too and that would increase power carries for whites.

    Last I will mention CB. I would say your average "starting" black NFL CB runs about a 4.48 NFL combine time (what Talib runs). So if your average white was running a 4.55, you wouldn't think it is a big deal, but those 3 feet or so over 40 yards in speed separation can be a big deal when you combine this with the fact that blacks also backpedal "slightly" better IMO. Whites may even have a slight advantage in burst, but as I said I also give blacks a very small advantage at cutting at full speed. Speed is absolutely essential to the CB position because you often have to cover speed demons one on one and if you bite a fake you need good recovery speed. This is why CB is a slightly faster position in the NFL than WR or RB. This is why I would dare say that NFL CB would be no more than 50% white even without the caste system. It is the only position in football that you might be able to legitimize as being more than half black without the caste system IMO.

    BTW some stereotypes have a grain of truth to them, but Rivals and ESPN are absolutely wacko in their evaluations. All they care about are 40 times. They don't care about the white advantage in tackle breaking, cutting and then bursting from the starting point to the line of scrimmage. They don't care about the field awareness of the white RB or our slight edge in 3-cone and short shuttle times overall, which shows our burst ability and quad strength to stop momentum and our footwork and cutting ability. Tom Luginbill has got to be the biggest anti-white athlete hate monger of all time. Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  3. White Shogun

    White Shogun Hall of Famer

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    Thanks for the long reply. I'm glad you did some research instead of actually pulling numbers out of thin air. [​IMG]

    From what I can see, other than at cornerback and TE, you don't really explain why there is such disparity at other positions in comparison to the racial demographics nationwide. Why do blacks continue to rate 40% of total RB positions in your evaluation?

    What did you use to evaluate how whites 'find the seam' better, or that blacks 'cut back better' or 'break more long runs?' You even have blacks at 15% at quarterback, which is higher than their overall percentage in the U.S. population. Why is that?

    In fact, your evaluation makes a case for black athletic superiority at every position except center, in comparison to their percentage of the population. In some cases by wide margins.

    I'm sorry if it seems like I'm nitpicking, but I don't see the reason for wide disparity from the given percentage of the population for any position. I said 'wide disparity', not 'no disparity.' These huge percentages of blacks filling 40-50% more of most NFL positions I don't see happening if there were no caste system in place. Edited by: White Shogun
     
  4. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Well I look at lots of film of white skill player prospects from Youtube and hated Rivals. And if whites are 66% of the U.S populous and I have us as 70% of WRs and blacks as 30% instead of 13%, I admit that that may seem like black athletic superiority at that position, but not by a huge margin.

    When a smaller part of the population becomes obsessed with making it at certain positions and has two areas where the elites have a "slight" advantage (speed and I would say darting cuts only at full or near full speed), sometimes it helps them find a higher rate of promotion at that position. Whites also have our many areas where we have superiority at WR and RB, "but the NFL may look for different types of players for different roles".

    My idea of a 75% white NFL is basically how it was in the mid 1960s, when things were actually being evaluated fairly IMO. America was liberalizing under JFK and then LBJ and Thurgood Marshall a black jurist was confirmed for the supreme court in that time I think. The fact that the country in the north and most states (not including the Jim Crow South) and the NFL was racist to blacks then is ludacris if you ask me, but it wasn't racist against whites either IMO.

    Lots of the positions are just guesses. DT is a position that requires brute strength, quick thinking, burst reaction time, toughness and non stop attitude. That is why I said roughly 80% white, because we are quite good at it.

    I don't care to rehash all the areas where I think whites have an advantage, but I would also include certain situations where our stereotypical type of agility is superior to black agility. IMO whites are usually more slashers and blacks more darters from lots of film I have watched.

    As far as QB, I just happen to think blacks are better at it than almost everyone on this site. Many NFL black QBs do tend to scramble too soon, but often make brilliant plays there too. But black QBs seem to often take the safe option of short and intermediate throws and often throw less interceptions. It may have to do with worse accuracy on average as to why they take less chances down field. This has kept any black QB from reaching the statistical status of a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning type QB, but blacks often make the safe play. David Gerard is a good QB. He is not great, but that play where he beat Pittsburgh on a scramble at the last second was actually a brilliant play.

    The problem is that it has started to become radically pro-black at the QB position also. Scout.com has 6 of the top 9 2009 H.S QBs black. This is ludacris. The stereotyping (or should I say black favoritism) is so rampant in this country and sport it is madness!
     
  5. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    By the way my analysis of QB as 85% white and 15% black is mathematically still a pro-white ratio compared to 66% white to 13% black in the U.S populous. And I admit I may have underrepresented whites just a little at OT, DE and OLB now that I think about it. but 5% higher/lower in the other direction makes it a big switch. I did all the ratios in multiples of 5!
     
  6. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    And come to think about it if the league was 85% white at DT, 80% white at DE, 85% white at TE. The league would start to get into the 80+% white range. This may sound like a very caste comment, but I would think it would be a little less fun with much less racial competition to watch.

    I for one like to see whites compete with blacks at all positions to show that we are not underdogs and match up fine with them. If the league became 80+% white, although it "might" legitimately be fair, I don't think the league would be as much fun. I think a mid 1960s racial style NFL was pretty fair and would be very fun to watch for me if it existed today! I for one do have a few black players in the NFL I currently really cheer for, but for the most part I am sick of the black favoritism and prefer white underdogs! I wouldn't want it to get to the point where the blacks were underdogs and looked like they had to prove something. That would eventually backfire on the culture into more over-support of the black athlete again.
     
  7. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    JD1986 brought up this same issue in the boxing forum and posters were discussing it in depth. I wrote up my own synopsis again, but this time included boxing stereotypes.
    I actually think I explained the issue better this time, with a little less tangent type details. Here is the analysis:

    Great Post JD1986! However, I don't agree that blacks have a thicker skull or a lighter head, I have seen no research to prove this, but much of the rest of what you guys say is correct. Not so sure about whites cutting more easily either, but it is certainly a possibility. But if you see the Vatali vs. Lewis fight, I don't know if the fight would have been stopped if it was the other way around. It is hard to see how bad a cut is on a black fighter. The dark skin hides it and that may be where the cutting stereotype comes from. The slightly longer arms and legs of blacks proportional to their body height is definitely true, facts prove it.

    I also believe that blacks have a slight advantage in
    40 + yard to 300 meter track speed b/c of slightly better leg lift. But blacks may actually be at a slight disadvantage over 25 yards or so and under. I just recently did research on this. Whites have slightly stronger quads and equally impressive calfs. But blacks tend to have a slight advantage in their butt muscles and muscles around the hips and slightly better flexibility where the femur attaches to the hip structure for leg lift and darting on the move. I talked to someone who told me about research that backs this up.

    I don't buy the tight hipped theory about whites as far as cutting ability and think this mostly has to do with leg lift for sprinting, not RB agility. However, whites tend to cut in more of a slashing style when running and blacks darting. Whites make that first cut better especially from behind the line of scrimmage to find the seam. Where blacks can make 2 quick cuts slightly better in the open field when moving very fast. But it is so extremely rare for any runner to have a 40 + yard run, that this slight black advantage is "way" overrated.

    The white ability to get those first downs and break off lots of 20, 30 yard runs before they are caught or cut off by a safety or CB is way underrated. Of course there are white freaks in the last 2 years like Sam McGuffie, Brandon Wegher, Brock Fitzhenry, Cory McCaffrey or Mike Trumpy that defy all these stereotypes and are great in the open field and getting those 50, 70 yard runs. But will the NFL ever give them a chance? Probably not, with maybe McGuffie as the only exception.

    McGuffie and Wegher where certainly in the top 3 RBs or so in the country in "Best in Space" and "Home run threat" ability. Mike Trumpy would be in the top 10 or so in the country in "best in space" this year and probably in "Home run threat" ability too. Trumpy is also a great tackle breaker. Rex Burkhead would probably be in the top 10 this year in "best in space" IMO, but isn't quite fast enough to make the top 10 IMO in home run threat. But generally blacks are a little better when moving full speed with room and whites are better using our shorter strides and quickness and strength to work through traffic in tighter space.

    As far as boxing, we whites tend to have a slightly better short area burst IMO. In a small ring, whites probably have an advantage with using our elite quickness and awareness in the ring to our advantage over blacks. Overall blacks have some slight advantages as do whites. And playing RB in the NFL has nothing to do with world class 100 meter speed being mandatory. Black supremacist Tom Luginbill of ESPN is a total idiot and hate monger![​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  8. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    I think the NFL circa 65' was larger than 75 percent white. It was probably about 80 to 85 percent. Back in the early 70's when I started watching the league the league was 75 to 70 percent white. When the league changed the pass interference rules the league had paradigm shift and the league quickly became roughly 50/50 but the speed positions became overwhelmingly black. Around the time of the Bears of 85 defenses were majority black and I noticed around the time of the Cowboys dynasty the defenses were 90 percent black and black offensive tackles were becoming very prominent. Many of the younger coaches now barely remember white players in speed positions. Some like Kifen probably don't at all. This all leads to more stereotyping and type casting.
     
  9. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Well the time period I listed was a little off of what I was trying to portray. I meant to indicate how the league was when the Packers won their first two Superbowls. In 1967 & 68', I think the racial demographics were pretty fair. And my dad has told me he thought the league was about 75% white, 25% black by looking at it statistically.

    But even then a little unfair stereotyping was already starting to break down by position. By 1967 the league was already roughly 50/50 white/black at HB. I realistically think the league should be 60/40, white/black at HB. And 80% or so white at FB, with the FB getting the power carries. It is ridiculous how much stereotyping has effected the league, all they think of now is race, rather than analyzing the best players.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  10. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    So back to Vince Young. How many wins for the Titans this year? Vince is not looking good and even a few of the prominent analysts are beginning to criticize him. The media can only overrate and over cheer the black QB for so long. There are currently two good black QBs in the league...Gerrard and McNabb, but Donovan just can't stay on the field.
     
  11. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    5 wins from other teammates
    the media will slowly turn on young and look to russel as the future black hope
     
  12. jaxvid

    jaxvid Hall of Famer

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    They've trumped up an injury for him (hand) so rather then him being a piss poor QB he will become a great leader for playing over the pain. Don't count the caste system out too early on this one.
     
  13. backrow

    backrow Hall of Famer

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    NFL Network's Adam Schefter reports that Vince Young will miss 2-4 weeks after tearing his MCL in Sunday's victory.

    Another Week 1 with a ton of injuries. Kerry Collins will start while Young is out. Considering how poor Young's played in new OC Mike Heimerdinger's offense over the last month, it's not necessarily a bad thing for the Titans' skill players. Still, we'd hang onto Young as a QB2. This isn't an injury that requires surgery, although Young will have an MRI on Monday.
    Source: Profootballtalk.com
     
  14. Van_Slyke_CF

    Van_Slyke_CF Mentor

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    "QB Young`s knee, accuracy hurting"

    Yahoo`s Jason Cole wrote:

    "Officially, Young's day ended with 4:14 remaining in the game, but he struggled from the start as his passing - again - came into question. Young completed 12 of 22 passes for 110 yards, one touchdown and two interceptions.

    And those numbers don't portray how bad Young played. Young was booed lustily by the home crowd at least twice, including the Titans' last drive of the game with 5:57 remaining."

    "Whatever the source of Young's problem - be it his odd sidearm throwing motion or his general inexperience in the pro passing game - he simply isn't hitting throws that a top quarterback needs to hit, dating back to the preseason, when the Titans' first-unit offense scored only one touchdown in 29 possessions."

    Caste Football members have been correctly pointing out from even before he was drafted by the Titans that he would not be a good NFL quarterback-not by a longshot.
    Perhaps the drunk white fans are finally starting to figure it out as well.
     
  15. White Shogun

    White Shogun Hall of Famer

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    Ever notice that white quarterbacks get benched, but black quarterbacks usually come out of a game due to injury? [​IMG]
     
  16. Guest

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    With all drunks there is a moment of clarity. Maybe the drunks during their moments of clarity, see Vince Young as a suck a.. QB. [​IMG]

    Oh, I guess Vince won another game today. Damn he just wins games!
     
  17. WHITE NOISE

    WHITE NOISE Mentor

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    As all of you know Vick Young will always look for a soft spot to lay down on when he is sucking in a game.Vick Young always seems to get " Injured" during times that he is: throwing more than one interception, loosing a game, doesn't believe he can win a game, etc. And inevitably " Whitey" comes in and wins the game. This pattern will repeat itself throughout this year as it did last year. Yeah ESPN, Vince Vick just " wins games"
     
  18. Tom Iron

    Tom Iron Mentor

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    Is Vince Young hurt?

    Tom Iron...
     
  19. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    I think he partially tore his MCL, he'll be out a few weeks.
     
  20. WHITE NOISE

    WHITE NOISE Mentor

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    I partially tear my MCL just getting out the of bed in the morning. It's probably a micro tear something all of us get while doing leg work at the gym. It's nothing more than the fake looking to go under the radar for the first few tough games knowing he can't handle pressure. He gets paid millions of dollars to stay on the field and play what a cry baby[​IMG]
     
  21. PhillyBirds

    PhillyBirds Mentor

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    Did anyone watch SportsCenter this morning? Merril Hoge said something that made me do a double-take at the TV. Something like "Vince Young had an awful day. Not only are the Titans a better team with Kerry Collins, but they can reach the Super Bowl with Kerry Collins."

    Wow. How about it?
     
  22. Guest

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    Hoge has bashed black players before, one of the few who does so openly.
     
  23. Thrashen

    Thrashen Hall of Famer

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    "Hoge has bashed black players before, one of the few who does so openly."

    Whoa, sissy-boy must have finally grown a pair. You'd think a former player, who Bill Cowturd literally said was "too white to lead the team in rushing" would actually stand up for what was right.

    Merrill Hodge is "playing the PC game" that all the white media puppetts play. The saddest part about idiots like Hodge (Sehorn, Collinsworth) is that they know exactly what they're doing. They also help turd-brain white fans to jump on the caste bandwagon. I'm sure it' skilling him inside, however, speaking the truth can cost him his job at ESPN (See Rush Limbaugh).
     
  24. jared

    jared Mentor

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    Hoge was an outspoken critic of Vince Young his first year.
     
  25. PhillyBirds

    PhillyBirds Mentor

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    I was pleased with what I heard. All of the other talking heads were moaning and groaning in disapproval when he said it. It was just refreshing to hear instead of an excuse.

    EDIT: Hoge is relentless. Every time he's on the camera, he's ripping Vince Young. Edited by: PhillyBirds
     

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