Ty Cobb

Discussion in 'Baseball' started by darthvader, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. darthvader

    darthvader Guru

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    I want to establish a memorial for the greatest baseball player ( at least in my opinion) there ever was Ty Cobb. More importantly he hated blacks and jews with abandon. He refused to share a room with Babe Ruth because he was part black and called him ****** lips He was known to even punch any black he saw crossing the street. He even punch fans who heckled him at the ballpark. There may not be another ballplayer like him anytime in this century.&nbs p;
     
  2. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    Ty Cobb exemplifies the old-time traditional ballplayer. His talent was incredible; how many "great" players have even approached his CAREER .367 batting average in their single best season? Just imagine what Ty would think of the awful mess that is modern day Major League Baseball.

    There is a funny anecdote that ex-Major Leaguer Lefty O'Doul (he of the .349 lifetime batting average, but virtually unknown today to baseball fans) used to like to tell about Cobb. Cobb despised the then "modern" players of the 1950s, and was especially irked by any comparisons between him and the young Willie Mays. The odious manager Leo Durocher had made headlines by proclaming that Mays was the greatest player he'd ever seen. Someone mentioned this to O'Doul at a business function, and then followed up by asking him how he thought Cobb would fare against modern players. "Well, I think he'd do about as well as Mays." O'Doul replied. The questioner was stunned- didn't he think Cobb was a better player? "Well, you have to remember," O'Doul explained, "Mr. Cobb is now over 70 years old." I personally think that, if Cobb were playing today against the anemic "talent" in the Major Leagues, he might very well bat .800.
     
  3. Freedom

    Freedom Mentor

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    bigunreal wrote:

    Someone mentioned this to O'Doul at a business function, and then followed up by asking him how he thought Cobb would fare against modern players. "Well, I think he'd do about as well as Mays." O'Doul replied. The questioner was stunned- didn't he think Cobb was a better player? "Well, you have to remember," O'Doul explained, "Mr. Cobb is now over 70 years old."

    I've heard similar anecdotes about other athletes with the same punchline. But Cobb didn't seem to have any particular grudge against Mays even saying that Mays was "the only player that I'd pay to see today."

    Dom DiMaggio, a former all star and brother of Joe DiMaggio, used to talk about Cobb a lot. I think he was a childhood coach or something to the DiMaggio's. He said that he once got rid of his split grip to show that it was easy to hit homeruns in the liveball era and Cobb hit 5 homers in a double header. He never won a series though.
     
  4. werewolf

    werewolf Hall of Famer

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    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  5. Average American

    Average American Mentor

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    Cool story yesterday, a family that discovered a relative's collection of rare, vintage Cobb cards.. preliminary assessments put the Cobb cards at $1 million-plus:
    http://fortune.com/2016/03/03/ty-cobb-baseball-cards-million/

    Regarding Cobb's attempted slander of Ruth. I don't believe there's been any ancestral research that indicates Ruth is part African (?) I'm a fan of baseball history, and from my reading, it always sounded like this accusation was Cobb's competitive resentment of Ruth's rising star. Back then, making that claim could hurt Ruth's stature with fans.
    Stupid thing is that over the years I've heard first-hand, cultural Marxists & some Black baseball fans echo this unfounded claim. The bigoted rationale being, Ruth had to have African ancestry to be the dominant athlete he was..
     
  6. Flint

    Flint Mentor Staff Member

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    It would be interesting to do a DNA test on a surviving relative. It's within the realm of possibility that Ruth could possibly be a mulatto. His childhood history is very vague and has some suspicious aspects to it. His father, well off enough to own a saloon, banished him to boarding school at 7, reasons unknown. That sounds like something a guy suspicious of being cuckolded would do. He had very little contact with his family after that, despite living in the same city. Baltimore had a large black population at the time too. Ruth was a problem child, very violent, another suspicious aspect. His nickname at boarding school was n*ggerlips, because of his features and dark skin, odd considering his two German parents.

    In pictures he appears to be white albeit with swarthy skin and some facial features that could be considered african. He still looks too white to be 50% black even in an era when many blacks tried to pass as white.

    He certainly lived the type of life one would expect of a rich black man in sports, boozing, womanizing, over eating, etc. Compare him to Gehrig or DiMaggio for example. Also it was interesting how he was "blacklisted" from any managerial jobs after his career, he really wanted to manage, yet no one gave him a job, despite his popularity and ability to put people in the seats. His poor behavior was always used as an excuse but perhaps there was something more?

    Interesting fact, he died young (53) of throat cancer yet was never told that he had cancer for fear he would commit suicide. He did get the best treatment of his era, radiation/chemo and initially responded very well.
     
  7. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Please. . . there's never been any credible evidence introduced, even by the most fervently liberal Ruth biographers, that the Babe had any Negro ancestry.

    There are notable variations and sub-types in most European ethnicities, Germans included. Ruth was roughly hewn with a broad face and nose, and was naturally burly and a bit swarthy, but that is not unknown among Germans, especially those from working class (or more Mediterranean) backgrounds.

    "Ruth was black" is a fairy tale spread by anti-Whites seeking to bolster the Caste System Big Lie that all great athletes must be black, "secretly" or otherwise, but even they've pretty much given up the ghost on that one. It has no more credibility than the "Hitler had only one testicle" myth -- or its latest twist, "Hitler had a micro-penis." I guess in another 20 years, we'll find out that Hitler was actually the Caitlyn Jenner of his era.

    Has the spirit of jaxvid been taken over by James Coburn? Bring back jaxvid!
     
  8. Ambrose

    Ambrose Master

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    Whatever did happen to Jaxvid?
     
  9. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Jaxvid is now posting as Flint.
     
  10. Ambrose

    Ambrose Master

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    Oh, I thought Flint was joking -nm.:)
     
  11. Flint

    Flint Mentor Staff Member

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    I agree that there is no evidence of Ruth having any black ancestry but I also understand why there are rumors which is what I was pointing out. DNA testing could put that to rest. BTW Cobb and Ruth had a rivalry on the field for a few years but afterward became very good friends, drinking buddies, and appearing together at golf outings and such. Ruth married a friend of Cobb's from his youth (rumors are they had been lovers) and it's doubtful that Cobb would have remained close friends with a man he considered black. Although Cobb's view on race was much more nuanced then commonly portrayed and very typical of the era.
     
  12. Ambrose

    Ambrose Master

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    I've seen what are today known as Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Bulgarians have faces like that of Ruth's. I know a woman with Ruth's eyes and nose and pudgy round face; she comes from Macedonia. Nope, Ruth was just a central European. Babe Ruth's granddaughter below. My oh my where has all the time gone?

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    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  13. Thrashen

    Thrashen Hall of Famer

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    Here is a photo of Ruth as a toddler, which depicts him having straight, blonde hair...

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    Was Ruth really that "swarthy" as an adult? Here are some color photos of him near the end of his life, presumably when he was no longer spending many hours per day outside in the sun playing baseball. His skin looks completely normal for a European...

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    Ruth had hazel eyes and medium brown hair without the lightest bit of "kinkiness." As a kid, I remember a documentary about Ruth in which fans and players called him "Tarzan the Ape Man," "Big Baboon," and "n-word lips." He was essentially a white man with a wide nose who had the ability to get a tan in the summer. There are plenty of European men who look that way.

    To be brutally honest...if Ruth had a more handsome face, the Marxist sports media would never accuse him of being "part black." They're so quick to accuse everyone of "racism," yet they equate ugly facial features as proof positive that someone must have Negro ancestry. Ironic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  14. Flint

    Flint Mentor Staff Member

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    Those pictures are pretty convincing. I also wonder about the nickname n-word lips, it doesn't seem his lips are that big at all. A lot of pictures of Ruth are black and white so it's hard to tell, here's a picture of him as a teenager (back row center) I guess he's a little more swarthy then the other kids but not that much. And once again I don't get the lips thing.

    I do think that people back then were very in tune with that kind of thing though and completely free of any PC concerns, so you would get their honest feelings about a persons background, but that also means that if he was in fact part black it would have been open knowledge.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    Don,
    How long will it take for someone on this Forum to speculate that Christian McCaffrey is part black? Years ago it was a HOF running back from long ago a couple of posters were saying this about. And they went on for a while about it.
     
  16. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    It's clear to me that just like Stu in Hangover II, Jaxvid has a demon in him. He's been possessed by the exceedingly rare James Coburn In Like Flint demon.

    Jaxvid needs an exorcism so that the demon can be cast off and Jaxvid freed to be his former cranky but perceptive self. Anyone know a good exorcist? Hopefully Jaxvid won't be hurling green vomit and performing 360s with his head while this much needed healing process takes place.
     
  17. Flint

    Flint Mentor Staff Member

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    Don, don't you have dark curly hair? That's odd for a person of supposed German ethnicity. :p
     
  18. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Shhh!
     
  19. Quiet Speed

    Quiet Speed Mentor

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    I remember someone, I think it was Michael Irving, saying that Tony Romo must have black ancestry in the family tree. Imagine a media figure, say Mike Ditka, saying Russell Wilson's success is due to his White lineage. All hell would break loose.
     
  20. Freethinker

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    This "Babe Ruth might be part negro" wichhunt might be one of the most absurd in CF history.

    For goodness sakes, PC public figures have questioned Ruth's greatness because he played in an era that was negro free. In their eyes, all of his accomplishments are void because he never faced great negros like Satchial Paige or Bob Gibson. Ridiculous!
     
  21. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    A Wronged Man -- Taking the Spikes Off Ty Cobb

    by Paul Beston

    What will they say about us when we’re gone? We’ve all wondered at one point or another. But in the age of social media, in which seemingly everyone wants to be a star, we should keep in mind that being remembered can have more pitfalls than being forgotten.

    Consider Ty Cobb, one of American sports’ legendary characters, whosegreatness on the baseball diamond—he played from 1905 to 1928, mostly for the Detroit Tigers—was eventually overshadowed by stories about his fanatical racism and violence, which, in some accounts, even included homicide. Over two generations, Cobb has been portrayed as a virtual psychotic in articles, books, and films, including Ron Shelton’s 1994 feature starring Tommy Lee Jones and Ken Burns’s epic, 18-hour documentary, Baseball, in which Cobb plays the villain to Jackie Robinson’s hero.

    There’s only one problem: this venomous character is predominantly fictional. InTy Cobb: A Terrible Beauty, published last year, Charles Leerhsen documents how Cobb’s wicked reputation largely dates to the years after his death in 1961, when sportswriter Al Stump created a mythical Cobb—“Ty the Ripper,” Leerhsen calls him—who displaced the real man in the public mind. Stump’s motives for spinning tall tales seem to have been financial. He had ghostwritten a careless autobiography for Cobb, who tried to stop its publication before his death. The book sold poorly, but Stump earned a handsome fee for a lurid magazine article filled with falsehoods, dubious quotes, and made-up incidents. Other writers repeated or expanded on these untruths over the years. “The repetition felt like evidence,” Leerhsen says. It was “well known,” director Shelton told Leerhsen, that Cobb had killed “as many as” three people, though the director didn’t explain how this was known. Drawing on Stump’s work, as well as a 1984 biography by Charles Alexander, Burns also helped enshrine Cobb’s demonic image.

    Time and again, what Leerhsen discovered through exhaustive research undermined the Cobb created by Stump, who didn’t source his work (“because he produced fiction,” as a contemporary said). Leerhsen could find no tangible evidence that Cobb hated blacks. On the contrary, he spoke in support of baseball’s integration when asked—and he wasn’t asked, as best Leerhsen can tell, until 1952. “The Negro should be accepted and not grudgingly but wholeheartedly,” Cobb said then. “The Negro has the right to compete in sports and who’s to say they have not?” On another occasion that year, he said: “No white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man. In my book, that goes not just for baseball but for all walks of life.” The virulent racist of legend, supposedly driven to derangement if even touched by a black man, attended Negro League games, threw out a first pitch, and often sat in the dugouts with black players. He came from a family of abolitionists. He endowed educational scholarships for students of all races.

    Leerhsen concedes that Cobb was complex and troubled, and while he debunks many incidents, he confirms others, such as an awful episode in 1912, when Cobb rushed into the stands to pummel a handicapped fan who had abused him verbally. Cobb was no one’s idea of easygoing, and his notoriety as a fiery (and fighting) competitor was well earned. But he didn’t sharpen his spikes before games to slash his opponents, as the myth has it. His peers didn’t regard him as a dirty player and they didn’t universally despise him, though many disliked him. The old ballplayers whom Lawrence Ritter spoke with for his 1966 oral history of baseball’s early days, The Glory of Their Times,criticize Cobb—mostly for being short-tempered and too quick to take offense—but none suggests that he was racist or otherwise hateful, and some liked him fine.



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    What is at issue is not Ty Cobb’s sainthood but Ty Cobb’s humanity. This posthumous character assassination makes Stump something like an upside-down version of Parson Weems, who, in a later edition of his Life of Washington, originated an American folktale about Young George and the cherry tree (“I cannot tell a lie”). Weems’s work helped shape Americans’ heroic view of Washington—though Washington’s career made that pretty easy—and the cherry tree endures in our culture as a parable about honesty.

    Leerhsen wonders whether Stump’s Cobb might endure because people enjoy monster stories and feeling morally superior. It’s also conceivable that, in today’s climate, those disposed to seeing racism as fundamental to everything that happens in America might see Ty the Terrible as too valuable a scoundrel to let go. Racially charged events in recent years have shown how facts don’t intrude on the views of those who make up their minds regardless of evidence. Clinging to a preferred narrative about someone long dead is comparatively easy, especially when he’s a white Southerner.

    The defaming of Cobb dramatically illustrates the written word’s power to exalt or slander, educate or mislead, and how the consequences of a writer’s moral choices can play out for generations. No more damaging accusation exists in modern America than that of bigotry. Once levied, it is a charge reluctantly retracted, and the dead have a particularly hard time winning acquittal.

    Leerhsen’s book also reminds us that there is no substitute for truth and independent judgment. His work could become a case study in sourcing information and vetting conventional wisdom. If commonly repeated facts can’t be substantiated, then their acceptance involves something other than scholarship.

    Finding out that the Cobb myths are mostly wrong is a bit like discovering that Charlemagne lacked ambition or that Jack Kennedy didn’t like girls. Leerhsen’s rehabilitated Cobb will take some getting used to, and it remains to be seen how these revelations are absorbed in a culture otherwise eager to make shows of contrition for past misdeeds—at least when the targets of such compassion are politically safe. Philadelphia has formally apologized to Jackie Robinson for its racist treatment of the player when he appeared in that city. One wonders what comparable gesture could be offered to Cobb’s descendants for the calumnies that have tarred him in American memory. Perhaps Ken Burns has some ideas.

    In the meantime, it won’t hurt to remember the simplest of lessons. In Leerhsen’s words: “Just because you’ve heard something a thousand times doesn’t mean it’s true. Did you know that it’s not even true that your hair and fingernails keep growing after you’re dead?” Lies do.

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/wronged-man-14423.html
     
  22. DixieDestroyer

    DixieDestroyer Hall of Famer

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    The Georgia Peach was the greatest baseball player to ever set foot on the diamond.
     
  23. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    Right DD! He's my personal favorite as to who is the best of all time. He could do it all! I could go on and on about the Georgia Peach, but one of my favorite stats about him is he only struck out 12 times at age 40 in 490 at bats, hit .357 and scored 104 runs! I think Cobb could have played in to his 50's.
    ....one more. Cobb used to foul off 3rd strikes on purpose to get a better strike on the next pitch.
     
  24. werewolf

    werewolf Hall of Famer

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    Not every German person looks like a blond god. He had kind of a flattened nose and he grew up in very rough surroundings. Boys are like that, especially in that rough orphanage he lived in, they'd look for something to pick on. Calling Babe Ruth ****** would really piss him off. Baseball benches were rough back then too and they'd look for ways to razz opposing players to disconcert them. Ty Cobb was one of the roughest.
    Babe Ruth was pure German. So was another all time great, Lou Gehrig. Ruth and Gehrig would speak to each other in German. I vote for Babe Ruth as the greatest ever and Ty Cobb second greatest. Babe Ruth WAS baseball in the 1920's and 30's. He hit more home runs than any of the other entire teams totaled. People forget that he was also one of the greatest pitchers ever before he became an outfielder.

    Ruth and Gehrig and other baseball players toured Japan in 1934. The Japanese people went crazy over them. So many people tried to get to see the games that many were trampled. Even the emperor of Japan went. The Japanese people loved baseball and Americans. But Pearl Harbor was only seven years later. WW2, the most deadly war in history and the destruction of the best blood of the white race, was completely unnecessary and orchestrated, just like WW1 and the American Civil War and the French and Russian revolutions and all the others that destroyed the white race until much of what is now left are holding "black lives matter" and "welcome refugees" signs.

    Rare video of the 1934 tour of Japan:


     
  25. werewolf

    werewolf Hall of Famer

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    Interesting book about the Cobb - Ruth rivalry, from - Ty Cobb A Terrible Beauty . Ty Cobb ruled the dead ball era, and then the live ball and Ruth came along. They wound up friends, though, and even had the same girlfriend and wife:

    "Besides having baseball and success in common, they also had Claire Merritt Hodgson, a Georgia native and a Ziegfeld Follies girl who was Ruth’s second wife. In her autobiography, The Babe and I, Mrs. Ruth said she had known Cobb “very well” as a teenager back in Athens, Ga., before he married Charlie, and for what it’s worth, Al Stump, in his second book on Cobb, suggests that Claire and Ty were young lovers."

    http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/05/08/book-excerpt-ty-cobb-babe-ruth-detroit-tigers-charles-leerhsen

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