Todd Helton vs. Andre Dawson/ Hall of Fame?

Discussion in 'Baseball' started by Carolina Speed, Oct 10, 2013.

  1. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    With Todd Helton announcing his retirement from MLB, the other day I heard Skip Bayless say that Todd Helton should be in the Hall of Very Good Players, not The Hall of Fame. He may be right, but I got to thinking about some players who recently or over the last say 3 or 4 years that were inducted that shouldn't be there. The one I recall was Andre Dawson, a good player, no doubt, but Hall of Fame worthy, no, but if Andre Dawson got in, surely Helton is deserving!

    Andre Dawson: AB/ 9927, R/1373, H/2774, 2B/503, HR/438, RBI/1591, SLG/.482, OBP/.323, BA/.279

    AD led the league in Hits once (189), HR's once (49), RBI once (137), and TB 2 times (341 and 353)


    Todd Helton: AB/7962, R/1401, H/2519, 2B/592, HR/369, RBI/1406, SLG./.539, OBP/.414, BA/.316

    TH led the league in Hits once (219), doubles once (59), RBI's once (147), won a batting title at (.372). He led the league 2 times in OBP. (.463 and .445), SLG. (.698), TB, (405), and OPS. (1.162)

    Helton has more runs, doubles, a better SLG. and OBP. and better BA by 37 points! Heck, Helton's BA. is almost better than Dawson's OBP!

    Helton led the league statistically 9 times in 8 different categories! Dawson led the league 5 times in 4 categories.

    As you can see despite almost 2,000 less AB, Helton is clearly as deserving if not more than Dawson.

    I'm not saying Helton is a Hall of Famer personally, but based on this comparison with Dawson, he should and will get in.
     
  2. jaxvid

    jaxvid Hall of Famer

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    I think the HOF should be a place for very good players. They should be remembered. Shelton is certainly deserving but will be denied (at least initially) because he played in Coors Park (which will be the excuse) and because he is White.

    I don't mind Dawson getting in. He was a top player in his day and players should be judged by how they measure up against their peers, not some arbitrary numbers. Dawson won an MVP award, for a crappy Cubs team, and was a rookie of the year. He was also a good fielder and before knee injuries had some speed. It took him nine years to get in.

    The way the Hall voting works now is that the most deserving minority player (black or hispanic) gets voted in no matter how "deserving" the player is. Dawson had to wait a while before the more deserving black guys were enshrined and it became his turn. Shelton will not have that luxury and probably won't ever get in.
     
  3. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    jaxvid, you may be right about very good players getting in. I guess when I think hall of fame players, I'm thinking old school, players who put up big numbers and or did things 95% of the other players couldn't do. Guys who broke records and or won championships, Players like Wagner, Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Johnson, Mathewson, Young, Williams, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Rose, Ripken, etc., guys who won multiple HR, RBI, or BA titles. I just don't put Dawson or Helton in those guys league.

    However, If you look at Helton's numbers compared to the 18 first basemen in the Hall, Helton is in the top 10 statistically, maybe top 8.

    Dawson did win the MVP, while leading in 3 categories, but Helton led in 8 categories in 2000 including RBI's 147, hits 216 and a .372 BA, but finished 5th in the voting. He should have won the MVP in 2000!

    I don't think they should hold it against Helton for playing in Colorado. There are other ballparks that favored hitters, Wrigley, Fenway, Polo grounds.
     
  4. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Helton had two phases to his career -- from roughly 1999 through 2004 he was one of the greatest, possibly the best, batter since the 1930s. Check out his stats from those five years: his average batting average was .344, equivalent to Ted Williams' lifetime batting average. Williams has the highest average of anyone that's played since WWII. Helton's 2000 season was one for the ages -- a phenomenal .372 batting average, 42 homers, 147 RBIs, 59 doubles, 138 runs scored, 216 hits. It may have been the best all-around season since the Babe Ruth era. Helton's 2001 season was almost as good; check out his stats on baseball reference.com.

    Helton's career trajectory inexplicably went from all-time great to just good to very good starting in 2005, which is a shame. It's much like what Don Mattingly's career was like -- amazing offensive production early on, followed by good to very good production afterwards (and an early end to his career). Another, lesser, example is Larry Walker, who put up great numbers but was constantly injured.

    My guess is that since a Hall of Fame worthy player like Dale Murphy gets only 20% of the vote or so, Helton will not be elected to the Hall of Fame. Electees of his general career caliber these days are limited solely to blacks such as Andre Dawson and Jim Rice.
     
  5. celticdb15

    celticdb15 Hall of Famer

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    I think Helton will eventually get in. As far as we know he's one of the few players to be clean during this era. He fielded his position very well, was a great contact hitter, and overall team player. I witnessed a few games when I lived out in Colorado in the early 2000's and man that guy would crush line drives that got out of Coors Park in a hurry. He was fun to watch, in fact I still think he had a couple of more years in him.
     
  6. knightedsoldier5000

    knightedsoldier5000 Mentor

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    The HOF has really been watered down lately IMO. Dawson was a very good player in his day, and let's be honest, there just wasn't much offense in the 80s. But is he a HOFer? I just don't know. Jim Rice really has no business in the HOF. To be honest, I dont' even think moliter or yount belong. I just don't remember them being 'great' players at the time, but they stuck around long enough to put up the 3,000 hits for automatic entry. Even Cal Ripken is questionable, he played every game, but a typical year IIRC, was like .270, 25 HRs, it just doesn't seem HOF worthy, but I guess he changed the position. As for Helton, he's another borderline player.
     
  7. knightedsoldier5000

    knightedsoldier5000 Mentor

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    Other recent inductees who have no business in the HOF:Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar, Dave Winfield, Eddie Murray
     
  8. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    Good stuff as usual on the MLB threads k5000.

    When Winfield came up on no business in HOF, I first thought really, but upon closer inspection, you may have a point. Winfield although had 3,000 hits, he only led the league once in RBI's 118 and TB's 333! He never had 200 hits in a season! Career BA.
    .283.

    Pretty much agree on everyone else, Larkin, Alomar no way, maybe Murray, but he only led the league in the strike shortened season of '81, HR 22 and RBI, 78 and OBP 1 time.

    Of all the players you mentioned Paul Molitor may be the most deserving. He led the league in hits numerous times, (3,319, 9th all-time), also in runs, doubles, (11th all-time), and triples. He is also in the (top 40 all time) in stolen bases with 504! His lifetime BA is higher than Pete Rose at .306!
     

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