The Combine and Pro Days -- the Caste System by the Numbers

Discussion in 'NFL' started by Don Wassall, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    So much of the evaluation of football players, whether as potential recruits to major college football programs or as possible successful players in the NFL, comes down to subjective factors. Black players are routinely described as having "loose hips," are "athletically gifted," and possess unlimited "upside" which need only be tapped, while White players are rarely described this way and more often are branded by the traditional stereotypes of "overachiever," "hard working, "gritty," and are said to have "non-stop motors" to make up for their supposed lack of athleticism.

    Even workout numbers are interpreted differently for different players. Each year a number of black safeties and cornerbacks are drafted by the NFL after running pedestrian times and worse at the Combine or their pro days, whereas it's the kiss of death for White players to be drafted to play defensive back, wide receiver or running back unless they run a sparkling time. And even if they do there is a tendency to downplay it and move them to a more "racially appropriate" position if they manage to get a shot at the professional level.

    Lurkers and others who are not familiar with the basics of the Caste System are recommended to read two articles from Caste Football's archives -- one is a piece written by poster Jimmy Chitwood in 2008: "Heisman Candidate or Blocking Fullback? The Difference is Apparently Only Skin Deep"
    http://www.castefootball.us/index.p...ifference-is-apparently-only-skin-deep.15156/

    The other article was written by CF columnist J. B. Cash, also in 2008: "The Racial Caste System in Sports"
    http://www.castefootball.us/index.php?threads/the-racial-caste-system-in-sports.8644/

    The reality is that the Caste System in sports exists, and the evidence for its existence can be found not only in the systematic stereotyping and racial slotting engaged in by so-called "experts," but also by the cold, hard reality of numbers which show that White football players with comparable numbers to Black football players are routinely and systematically treated unfairly by both the media as well as the football industry itself.
     
  2. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    Thanks Don for starting this thread! BTW, I received your message about getting this started. I just haven't had much time lately to post.
    I'll start this first comment with the most recent NFL RB travesty to hit RB Ryan Nall. Despite coming in second, or did he lead the NFL-pre season in rushing yards, Nall did not make the opening day roster for the Chicago Bears.
    Here's a look at Ryan Nall's numbers at the NFL Combine.
    6'2, 232 lbs.
    40 yard dash: 4.52 pro-day. 4.58 laser timed.
    20 yard shuttle: 4.16. Unbelievable for a man his size!
    3-cone drill: 6.95.
    Broad Jump: 10'02
    Vert: pro day 34. 33.
    225 BP: 15 reps, somewhat disappointing considering I'm in my 50's and can do it on a good day 20-25 reps.
    Outstanding numbers for a RB his size!
    Nall goes undrafted and again fails to make the Bears roster after either leading or coming in second in rushing, the NFL pre season

    Here's a look at Elijah Hood's NFL pro-day at Chapel Hill. Keep in mind, pro day's are hand timed! Hood was drafted in the 7th round in 2017 and did make one game appearance.
    5'11, 232 lbs.
    40 yard dash: 4.57 hand timed, so add at least a tenth of a second laser time. Generally that's what I equates to. So in reality Hood ran around 4.63-4.67
    20 yard shuttle: 4.65! Really! My daughter can run it that fast HAND TIMED! What would his laser timed 20 yard shuttle have been? 5.0 flat.
    Actually, I think they reversed Hood's 4o with his 20 shuttle. Giving him a 4.65 4o and a 4.57 shuttle.
    3- cone drill: 7.12 Again, hand timed. More like 7.32.
    Broad Jump: 9'05'
    Vert: 31'1/2'
    BP reps were not listed.

    Ryan Nall is obviously bigger, faster, quicker, jumps farther and higher and probably just as strong as Hood, but went undrafted.
    Also, led or was second in the NFL preseason rushing! Never saw the field in 2018 or picked up by another team.
    There's a whole vault of this information in the CF archives. I hope others will add to this thread present and past examples for all lurkers to see.
    I will do the Wake Forest, Cade Carney/Matt Colburn comparison later.

    Thanks again, Don
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  3. BeyondFedUp

    BeyondFedUp Master

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    I do not have social media such as FB, Twitter, Instagram, etc., but those of you who do should post those two articles that Don linked far and wide. They are excellent and tell the truth of the story in an understandable manner that normies and the everyday Joe Six Pack can absorb and contemplate. Please, by all means share them without reservation. The truth of the "religion of America", i.e. football, should be known to the masses who worship at its altar.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  4. wile

    wile Mentor

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    Thanks for the work and all the facts, that said it will take more than facts and truth to overcome the narrative. I think there is hope though, conservatives are starting to question the virtue of that dopey Norman Rockwell image of noble truth teller and are starting to appreciate guile and rhetoric while looking for weaknesses of the enemy.
     
  5. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    The idea behind this thread, as suggested by Carolina Speed, is for posters to add to it with more Combine and Pro Day information on talented White players, so that over time we have a single source to go to rather than the information being scattered across many years of archives.
     
  6. Flint

    Flint Mentor Staff Member

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    Heisman Candidate or Blocking Fullback?

    In my opinion it's the best article written and posted on Caste Football. A scathing critique of the double standard in American Football. Considering it was written BEFORE Hillis' success with Denver and then Cleveland, and before Beanie Wells could prove to be a complete bust makes it even better.

    Perhaps it's lost a little luster with Hillis recent fade from the limelight but there is no question he was a great talent when healthy something no one will ever say about Wells. The very fact Hillis was ignored for so long and turned out to be a star when given a chance is what makes the article so good.

    Unfortunately there is a long list of players that could have this very same article written for them. It seems in some small ways to be getting better.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2019
  7. Old Scratch

    Old Scratch Mentor

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    Nall also matches up very favorably with Leveon Bell in measurables (yet one is too unathletic to be a RB in the NFL and the other is a franchise tag player), with comparable patience and vision.
     
  8. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    Here are the two RB's for Wake Forest size and combine numbers at the Nike Combine in HS:
    Matt Colburn:
    5'8, 182 lbs.
    40 yard dash: 4.72. No white RB would get a D-1 look with that 40 time! Period, unless he was 6'4 250 lb. FB.
    20 yard shuttle: 4.28
    Vert: 28

    Cade Carney:
    5'11, 213 lbs.
    40 yard dash: 4.53
    20 yard shuttle: 4.21
    Vert: 40.4

    The point here is, unless Carney runs a sub 4.6 40 he's not playing D-1, yet Colburn who is black only ran a 4.72! There's no way Carney's going to WF if he runs a 4.7 40! Look at the difference in their vertical! Carney jumped a foot higher than Colburn.
    Yet Colburn has been the starter, unless he was injured in which Carney put over 200 yards on Duke and went on to rush for over 1,000 yards as the second string RB. Hopefully, with Colburn leaving. Carney has a great 2019 season and gets a chance in the NFL. But don't hold your breath, unless Carney goes sub 4.5 at his pro day.

    You can look at this another way. In Colburn's defense, he was a productive RB at WF. Rushing for over 2500 yards and averaging 4.7 yards per carry over four years. There's more than one way to get it done. However, white players rarely get an opportunity to prove this.

    Carney in three years has rushed for 1,826 yards, while averaging 4.5 yards per carry. Carney will probably get close to 3,000 yards for his career if allowed to start next year.
     
  9. dolphins15

    dolphins15 Guru

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    Some previous posts that I had made last year that I think fit better in this thread.

    Harrison Phillips- 6'4" 307lbs, 5.21 40, 42 reps of 225, 32" vert, 103" broad, 7.28 3 cone, 4.50 short shuttle. Played in 31 games with 153 tackles, 29 TFL, and 16.5 sacks.

    Da'Ron Payne- 6'2" 311lbs, 4.95 40, 27 reps of 225, 28.5" vert, 107" broad, 7.58 3 cone, 4.71 short shuttle. Played in 35 games with 102 tackles, 5 TFL, and 3 sacks.

    Payne is seen as sure fire 1st round pick. Where Phillips is 2nd round on projections. I remember during the combine they were gushing over Payne saying what makes him different from past Alabama DT's is his ability to rush the passer. That is really evident with his 3 career sacks. Comparing the two athletically Payne had a better 40 and broad. Where Phillips has the better bench, vert, 3 cone and short shuttle. Phillips clearly had the better college career. But Phillips is "looks like a guard" and Payne is "a day one starter". You really can't make this stuff up.

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    I want to compare Ryan Nall to some of the bigger backs taken recently in the draft. I have seen Nall at best as a late round pick by many mock drafts.

    Ryan Nall - 6'2" 232lbs 4.58 40, 15 reps of 225, 33" vert, 122" broad, 6.95 3 cone, 4.16 short shuttle. 385 carries for 2,216 yards and 24 TDS. 5.8 YPC. Caught 56 balls for 563 yards and 4 TDS.

    TJ Yeldon- 6'1" 226lbs 4.61 40, 22 reps of 225, 36" vert, 117" broad, 7.19 3 cone, 4.22 short shuttle. 576 carries for 3,322 yards and 37 TDS. 5.8 YPC. Caught 46 balls for 494 yards and 2 TDS.

    Matt Jones - 6'2" 231lbs 4.61 40, 20 reps of 225, 31.5" vert, 112" broad, N/A 3 cone, 4.20 short shuttle. 297 carries for 1,431 yards 11 TDS. 4.8 YPC. Caught 19 balls for 100 yards and 1 TD.

    Jeremy Hill- 6'1" 233lbs 4.66 40, 20 reps of 225, 29" vert, 113" broad, N/A 3 cone, N/A short shuttle. 345 carries for 2,156 yards 28 TDS. 6.2 YPC. Caught 26 balls for 254 yards and 0 TDS.

    Le'Veon Bell- 6'1" 230lbs 4.60 40, 24 reps of 225, 31.5" vert, 118" broad, 6.75 3 cone, 4.24 short shuttle. 671 carries for 3,346 yards and 33 TDS. 5.0 YPC. Caught 78 balls for 531 yards and 1 TD.

    Yeldon was a 2nd round pick. Jones was a 3rd round pick. Hill was a 2nd round pick. Bell was a 2nd round pick. None of those guys were mentioned as playing FB or H-back like Nall. Nall will presumably go later than all of them were taken even though some of them had character red flags as well. Nall had the best 40, broad jump, and short shuttle out of all of them. The only area where he is lacking is the bench which makes playing FB or HB sound stupid for him. His college stats are very comparable to all of those guys. I know he didn't have the guys blocking for him that a Yeldon or Hill had. For us here at castefootball we already know but if you are a lurker ask yourself why Nall who showed more athleticism testing and very similar numbers playing Power 5 football, why is he viewed as a FB or HB and why would he go 3-4 rounds later than these guys? The answer is simple... the color of his skin.
     
  10. Chad

    Chad Newbie

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    I think the systemic institutionalized discrimination starts with high school or perhaps even sooner.

    One area I take real issue with is college recruiting. I mean look at the demographics of the latest composite ranking of all the high school players. I don't know if it's just a infatuation of blacks by those that go into sports journalism, just a preprogrammed bias, or a purposeful discrimination with a nefarious agenda.

    I do suspect most that go into sports journalism are likely liberal but there seems to be a glaring overrepresentation of a particular tribe that has input on these rankings. I know for Florida and FSU this is the case at least. The main guys for them are Marty Cohen, Blake Alderman, Thomas Goldkamp, Bob Redman, Jeremy and Josh Newberg. Those named sound a little fishy to me. Anyway, I know there are bad apples in every group, so I digress.

    I just wish there was more public attention brought to light about the obvious discrimination. If the roles were reversed, we'd be hearing about it nonstop. Fair is fair. But here, take a look at this composite when you have a chance. The composite is an average of all the main recruiting services including rivals, 247, and ESPN.

    https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Football/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool

    I did find a future superstar ranked reasonably high in Jake Smith. I know I'll be watching how he does at Texas.

    https://247sports.com/Player/Jake-Smith-46047516/

    Check out his highlights.

    https://www.hudl.com/video/3/6340216/5c3655a8386e7b0958636bea
     
  11. Chad

    Chad Newbie

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    Great topic by the way. Does anyone know exactly when this bias and discrimination began to trend to the level it is now? Or why it started? I know many of the issues facing western societies have their roots in cultural marxism. Here's a solid article on its beginnings and another with some ideas to help fight against it with the goal of reversing it as quickly and efficient as possible.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016...-marxism-how-frankfurt-school-changed-america

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-23/how-stamp-out-cultural-marxism-single-generation

    PS: If anyone wants to share other similar links or names of books you'd recommend, that'd be awesome. Thanks.
     
  12. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Start by reading the J. B. Cash article linked in the first post of this thread. ;) This site is a treasure trove of information on every aspect of the Caste System; the search function is your friend.

    Also, let's stay on topic. This is a specific thread about Combine and Pro Day results.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  13. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    As I posted yesterday in the NFL Draft the 338 NFL combine invites have been named. You can retrieve the names any which way.

    And I think this is a way above average grouping for us here at CF.

    The biggest downside is there are zero running backs and only one defensive back.

    Four wide receivers, Isabella, Sills, Renfrow and Thompson. I was afraid of only three so that is a plus in one sense despite the fact a half dozen or more white WRs should have been invited. Speedster Scott Miller was dutifully ignored. They insist that this event be a speed showcase for black players, many of whom are average or worse football players. And they go out of their way to avoid a player like Miller who might derail the narrative.

    But on the plus side a nice batch of QBs including dual threat types like Trace McSorley and Nick Fitzgerald.

    But correct me if I am wrong there are more LBs and DLs than I remember in a long time.

    There are roughly 9 LBs and roughly 9 DL invited. That is easily above the norm of late.

    Throw in 9 or so TEs and you have a pretty decent amount of white players to follow in three weeks.

    Along with RBs Patrick Laird and AJ Ouellette getting shafted, I would add Texas TE Andrew Beck and Michigan State LB Joe Bachie just to name a few that should have been invited. There are several others of course.

    But the larger than usual amount of white defenders sans defensive backs ( that is a whole other topic that needs to be addressed) reflects what we witnessed this past season in college football where stellar white defenders were all over the college landscape.

    Conversely I believe the Big 12 with their heavily black defenses only received 12 total defensive invites.
    Good. That is what happens when a conference plays defense is optional football.

    [One extra sour note. I thought this Kyler Murray media worship regarding his football/baseball decision would be over by spring training which starts on the 15th or the combine in three weeks. Think again. Now many are saying this media hound might not make up his mind
    until the actual draft at the end of April. Good God spare us man. Make up your stinking mind. But he probably won't because the media suck ups will continue to trail him like drooling puppy dogs, hanging onto his every move.]
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  14. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    Below is the workout schedule for the combine which is televised on the NFL network.

    http://www.nfl.com/network/combine

    I miss out on Friday and Monday but except for DB Wingard the lone white DB on Monday, I am not missing anything. I also get a chance to watch some DL for an hour plus early on Sunday but I will miss the LBs workout which I want to especially see this year.

    But I will be home all day Saturday for the QBs, WRs and TEs. I make a day out of it. I take notes and everything. Ha. Single white male with no life.
     
  15. Red raider

    Red raider Guru

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    Joe Bachie still has a year left at Michigan State! I think he’s a lock for the combine next year with another solid season. Him and Kenny Willekes should both be drafted next year.
     
  16. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    This thread is just for comparisons of stats and workout numbers correct? Any other draft talk should be in the draft thread?

    Just wanted to make sure this thread is used correctly rather than have it lose its effectiveness if it spirals into other draft related conversations.
     
  17. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Any off-topic posts will be deleted. We meander to different subjects in some threads which is fine in most cases, but not in this thread.
     
  18. Chad

    Chad Newbie

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    I'll check it out thanks!

    No, I must consume every ounce of information to develop a grand unified theory on how to combat our opponents and make things right as soon as possible, regardless of thread or topic /s ;)
     
  19. Chad

    Chad Newbie

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    This mock draft that was put out January 9th, 2019 has Clemson safety Tanner Muse going at number 20 overall.

    https://thedraftnetwork.com/2019/01/07/top-25-2019-nfl-draft-prospects-in-national-championship/

    I don't know how he's going to fair in the NFL combine. I'm sure he will do excellent. This Clemson article from 2017 states Tanner ran a 4.36 forty at 225 lbs.
    However, his draft profile at draftscout paints another picture. http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=1003213&draftyear=2020&genpos=SS.

    What do you think his results will be at the combine? I'm going with a 4.44 forty, 21 reps on bench, and a 37 inch vertical. Who knows on the other testing. Here's his 64 yard int for a TD mentioned above. He looks powerful on film and his acceleration looks elite.



    OT: Clemson just signed 2 LBs this past cycle in Kane Patterson and Keith Macguire. a SDE in Logan Cash and a WR in Brannon Spector.
     
  20. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    Muse didn't declare and is returning for his senior season. I do hope he puts up the workout numbers you are guessing he will though!
     
  21. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    I just ran across this, don't know if anyone has mentioned it before but it's worth putting on this thread:

    Daniel Sorensen (2014)
    3-Cone: 6.47

    Short Shuttle: 3.95

    60-yard Shuttle: 10.80

    You can be a top performer at the Combine and still go undrafted. Daniel Sorensen had top numbers in the 3-Cone, Short Shuttle, and 60-yard shuttle for the defensive backs in 2014. He didn’t end up getting drafted, but he’s carved out a nice career for himself with the Chiefs and even earned a contract extension.

    https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2019/02/26/kansas-city-chiefs-history-of-top-combine-performers/
     
  22. Bucky

    Bucky Mentor

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    Wow some blazing times from our Defenders today!!

    Porter Gustin 4.69
    Cameron Smith 4.7
    Cody Barton 4.67
    Nick Bosa 4.79
    Ben Burr Kirven 4.57
    Ty Summers 4.52
    Blake Cashman 4.51
    Ryan Connelly 4.67
    True Tranquil 4.6
    Maxx Crosby 4.66
    Chase Winovich 4.59
    John Cominsky 4.69 at 285lbs!!
     
  23. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    Thank you Bucky! We also need some of the others to be re posted here from the NFL draft thread such as, the comparisons of Isabella, 4.31 and Lil' Humphries, 4.74. No white WR would be invited that ran a 4.74. I know there's white WR's in college that run sub 4.7!
    I know a white 13 year old that ran a 4.7!
    ….and another question. Why was Alec Ingold running in the RB's 40, 4.9, but Laird, Ericksen, or Ouellette were not invited? I'm pretty sure all 3 would have ran under 4.7. I've heard Ouellette has run high 4.3's hand timed which translates to high 4.4's plenty good enough for the NFL!
    It's almost like, let's throw Ingold in there to say, "I told you so" Whitey ain't fast enough. Again where's Laird, Ericksen, Ouellette?
    There's another white RB at the D-1 AA level who was really good. Ran for 75-80 yard TD in the playoff game? Help Me? Who am I missing?
     
  24. Bucky

    Bucky Mentor

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    CS I believe you're thinking of Eastern Washington's Sam McPherson. Another fast versatile back! We all share your frustrations with the White RBs being ignored. I agree and have no doubt any of these backs are capable of running sub 4.7 or sub 4.6 40s!!

    Patrick Laird CAL
    Ian Eriksen EMU
    AJ Oullette OHIO
    Dom Bragalone Lehigh
    Sam McPherson EWU
     
  25. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    That's him Bucky! Thanks! Also, thank you for mentioning Bragalone!
     

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