Super Bowl XL: Your thoughts

Discussion in 'NFL' started by White Shogun, Feb 5, 2006.

  1. Colonel Callan

    Colonel Callan Guru

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    Another street robbery in Detroit.

    Seattle was jobbed. I am not a fan of either team, BTW. The officiating
    was the worst I have ever seen in a Super Bowl. Pittsburgh had three big
    plays... and that's it. The offiiciating gave them the chances for those
    plays however. I also doubt Big Ben's TD was actually a TD. I think the
    kid is awesome, but on the day, he stunk up the field. The Steelers were
    thumped in every area by the Seahawks, but it's impossible to beat the
    officials. When you have writers at PC Heaven - ESPN.com - complaining
    about it, then you know something is definitely wrong. Very, very
    disappointing. All I wanted to see was a good, competitive game, and
    instead I had to sit through the men in stripes carrying out some agenda
    for who knows who, or God knows why. Of course, Steeler fans probably
    see no wrong, but this was Grassy Knoll stuff on display in Detroit.
     
  2. ocaamikedm11

    ocaamikedm11 Mentor

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    The play where Jurevicious knocked the corner's helmet off was amazing, as well as when he made the catch toward the end of the game and trucked a Steeler defender after the catch. He is a FA I believe and I hope he gets a chance to be a #1. I've heard rumors here in Philly that they are very interested in him, and although the Eagles are pretty black, they sorely lack a WR with JJ's talent and he would certainly be their #1. But we'll see how it plays out and hopefully he finally is a #1 somewhere...
     
  3. White Shogun

    White Shogun Hall of Famer

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    Am I the only one on the site who DOESN'T think there was a conspiracy to hand the Steelers the Super Bowl trophy?

    1) Darrell Jackson pushed off, right in front of the ref. If the ref doesn't throw the flag, today everyone is talking about how the ref DIDN'T make the call. I disagree that games should be called differently in the playoffs than the rest of the season.

    2) The ref called Roethlisberger's dive a TD based on the final spot of the ball. We know from the replay that the ball was not in the endzone when he went down. BUT - the ball appeared to have touched the goalline during the dive, when Roethlisberger was still airborne. All it takes is a touch. Was there enough to overturn it? No. If they had, today we'd be talking about how Big Ben got jobbed.

    3) The holding penalty on Seattle's O-line on what amounted to Jerramy Steven's second catch of the game. When the ref throws the flag, he doesn't know whats happening down field. He throws the flag based on what he sees on the line of scrimmage. If Stevens had remained true to form and dropped the ball like he did every other time, this call is a non-issue. Just another holding penalty.

    4) Hasslebeck called for low-block. Bad call. He was making the tackle. Counterpoint - Roethlisberger was sent FLYING by a block in the back on the INT return. No flag.

    The Seahawks weren't beaten by the refs, the Seahawks were beaten by the Seahawks:

    1) Poor clock management at the end of both halves.
    2) Dropped passes and out of bounds catches by Seahawks receivers cost them big. A common problem in Seattle, just a different year.
    3) The refs aren't responsible for making tackles or running down backs on 75-yard touchdown plays.
    4) The refs didn't call the defensive formation and fake out the defensive backs on Randle-El's pass to Hines Ward.
    5) The refs didn't force two Seattle field goals wide.

    The ESPN radidiots are talking about the refs and blown calls because without this controversy, this Super Bowl was boring as hell and poorly played on both sides of the ball. There would be nothing else to talk about but the two big Pittsburgh plays that essentially won the game. As usual, the Super Bowl turned out to be a Stupor Bowl and did not live up to the hype.

    If it was a regular season game I'd have turned it off midway through the second quarter.
     
  4. whiteCB

    whiteCB Master

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    Yeah I'm really hopeing that the Browns don't resign WR Antonio Bryant(head case) and go for Joe Jurevious(good character). I think Joe would really be a great signing for the Browns as he would get a lot for fan interest in the team, seeing as how he grew up in the Cleveland suburbs and had a great high school career there.
     
  5. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Like The Duke wrote above, the Steelers had three big plays - Big Ben to Ward, Randle-El to Ward, and Parker's big run. The Seahawks had no big plays, thanks mainly to their hands of stone TE and D-Jack running out of bounds on what should have been a touchdown catch. That's what decided the game, not the officiating.
     
  6. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    I picked the Steelers by 6+, so I was right more or less. It was a typical Super Bowl, in that the favored team won and it was a lackluster game. The officiating was below par, but just about everything else was. The Steelers were the better team and hopefully Big Ben will get another chance and perform better.

    It has always been my belief that the two week layoff, plus the antiseptic neutral site, and the unending hype from the press results in a mediocre football game. NFL playoff games and Conference championship games often are (or used to be) tight and well-played by both teams. Few of the 40 Super Bowls have fit that description.
     
  7. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    Like others here, I think this was the worst officiated game I've ever seen, and I've been watching the NFL since before the Super Bowl began. As many of you know, I think these games are fixed. However, seldom is the "fix" as obvious as it was in this game. Even an idiot like Tony Kornheiser mentioned the "fix" word on ESPN. You know you're not being subtle when someone as clueless as that notices. The officials decided this game. Period. I doubt that you've ever had a situation like this before in the history of the NFL (at least in the playoffs); a team gains more yardage, wins the turnover battle, and the time of possession battle, yet loses by 11 points! Not only did the officials negate the Jackson TD on a ridiculous call (remember my previous points about how they use both holding and pass interference-which they themselves acknowledge they can call on every play-to control these games), they also called two little mentioned holding penalties to negate other big Jackson gains. Then there was the holding call that overturned one of Stevens' few catches, which would have given the Seahawks a certain TD. As for Big Ben's TD, what were any of you looking at that claim he crossed the goaline? You could see that the ball was cradled down near his hip! It wasn't even close- yet their vaunted instant replay system didn't correct the official's "human" error.

    For the record, I am not a fan of the Seahawks. They are not really any more deserving than the Steelers, imho, but on this day they totally dominated the game and, even with their dropped passes, shoddy clock management and sometimes bizarre play calling, lost for only one reason- the horrendous officiating.
     
  8. Bart

    Bart Hall of Famer

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    Bigunreal, because of the absolutely awful calls not only yesterday but throughout the playoffs, your arguments are becoming more and more credible. Those -lame wannabe comedians - called officials are really making me wonder. I have forgotten, wasn't it Vince McMahon who ran the XFL? Maybe his influence is rubbing off on the NFL? Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
     
  9. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    Bart,

    It's interesting that you mention Vince McMahon. Recently, my kids have become interested in pro wrestling (hopefully it's just a phase). Watching it with them on occasion, I'm amazed at how similar some of the theatrics are to what we see in the NFL and the NBA. For instance, the week-long trash talking by Joey Porter was typical WWE hype. The difference is that the pro wrestlers are more articulate and their boasting and ranting less annoying. It's also curious that no one in the kept press, to my knowledge, ever questioned the legitimacy of XFL games. Considering that McMahon's matches have always been obviously staged and the outcomes preordained, why didn't any reporter question whether McMahon would control his XFL games in the same manner? I always enjoy your posts, Bart, and if you are starting to agree with my "fixed" theory, then I must really be on to something.
     
  10. guest301

    guest301 Hall of Famer

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    It's much much harder to fix a football match than a pro wrestling match. I like to think it was alot of incompetence from the referees but sometimes I wonder how any officials could be that incompetent. Pittsburgh won that game in a unconvincing manner as any team has ever won the Super Bowl.If it can ever be proven that these games are rigged..a multi-billion dollar industry goes down the tubes quickly.
     
  11. White Shogun

    White Shogun Hall of Famer

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    Wow.

    Not everyone here thinks the game was fixed. The "fix" was apparently not that "obvious," because not everyone thinks the game was fixed, not here and not in real life, either.

    The mere fact that an idiot like Kornheiser throws out the 'fix' word on his show is evidence enough to me that there was no 'fix.' I rarely agree with the radidiots on ESPN and this is just another example. They're talking about the refs because the game was boring and poorly played. What else would they have to talk about, if not the refs?

    The Steelers are the third team in NFL Super Bowl history to have more turnovers than their opponent and still win the game. Its not precedent-setting, and even if it was, so what?

    Was the Colts-Steelers game fixed in favor of the Colts? If so, did the Steelers overcome the fix and win despite the refs?

    Roethlisberger had the ball at his shoulder when he hit the goalline. When he was hit the ball went to his waist, after which he scooted if forward to make it look like a TD. It was evident from the replay that the ball was *not* at his waist while he was airborne.

    Did the ref who threw the flag for holding on Steven's catch look downfield to see if it was a catch before he threw the flag? Where were the refs when Big Ben was getting blocked from behind? Where were the refs on the late helmet-to-helmet hit on the Steeler's wide receiver in the first half? What about the other holding penalties that occured when there were no big plays? Truth be told, there were very few penalties called in this game, not too many.

    If the game was fixed, who participated in the fix? One ref, or the whole crew? Somebody needs to check Jerramy Stevens bank account, because if this game was fixed, he had to have been in on it.

    Who benefited from the fixed game? The mob? The Jews? The corporate world who paid millions of dollars for TV spots during a game that many people turned off before it was halfway through? Do the refs who are trying to 'fix' the game get rubbed out or whacked when the game doesn't go according to plan, like Colts-Steelers? WAIT - I know! They were actually fixing that game in favor of the Steelers to set it up to LOOK LIKE it was fixed in favor of the Colts so there would be LESS suspicion on the Super Bowl fix?? Am I right??

    The refs are more to blame than dropped passes, shoddy clock management, and bizarre play calling?? If the Seahawk's D had played better on those two big plays, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

    I didn't have a dog in this hunt, either. I preferred the Steelers over Holmgren, not the Steelers over the Seahawks. My feelings wouldn't have been hurt if the Seahawks had won, especially if Hasselbeck won the MVP. He played the best game of anyone on the field, win OR lose.

    I'd love to see the conspiracy theories. Who was behind the fix? Who benefited, and for what purpose? Was it set up from the beginning of the season, or game by game through the playoffs? Help me out here.
     
  12. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    I thought Ben scored at the time, without having to see the replay. All the ball has to do is cross the beginning of the white line, and it looked like it did to me.

    If Ben had completed that easy throw to Cedric Wilson in the end zone that was picked off by Seattle, the Steelers would have been up 21-3 in the third quarter. Game, set and match. It was close to being a blowout. Seattle just didn't make clutch plays. They kept moving into Pittsburgh territory and then stalling around the 30 or 35, which negated their statistical advantage in yards gained. They always ended up punting or missing long field goal attempts.

    The strangest thing to me was Seattle totally mismanaging the clock at the end of the first half. Yes, the refs have way too much subjective control over a game, but Jackson clearly pushed off in the endzone, and one of the holding calls was dubious, the other wasn't. The Steelers were the better team; they made big plays and the Seahawks didn't.
     
  13. Colonel_Reb

    Colonel_Reb Hall of Famer

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    Rush Limbaugh commented on that game having the worst clock management by the Seahawks today. Maybe i'm naive, but I don't see so many of these games as being fixed as some of you guys do.
     
  14. speedster

    speedster Mentor

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    First of I want to congratulate big Joey V.He had a fine game and season despite the obstacles he had to overcome.I've become a fan.But that was all that was good about the game.I'm a Cowboy fan and I hate the Steelers.I though I was over this raw raw stuff for one team and everyone else was the enemy but seeing the terrible towels and players like Bettis and Troy Palmolive brought back some memories to the point that I wanted Seattle to win big.What is even worse is Pitt had five SB's which ties Dallas.Yuck.With a few breaks the Cowboys could have eight championships,but that's another story.But for now I live with the fact that Pitt is the best.I need a Blue.
     
  15. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    As I said, I don't really care who won this Super Bowl. Other than possibly the Colts, I really didn't like any playoff teams. You have to consider WHEN those horrible calls were made against the Seahawks, and what impact they had on the game. A touchdown was taken away on a very, very lame push by Jackson (who had been just as lamely pushed right before that by the Steeler DB). The two main weapons officials can use to fix games are pass interference and holding. These infractions are entirely subjective- the officials determine when to call them. As I've mentioned here before, everyone involved with the league admits that holding occurs and could be called on EVERY play. Just think about the absurd nature of an infraction admittedly happening on every play, yet only called a handful of times, at the discretion of the offficials. Pass interference could also be called on practically every passing play. If you call Jackson for that slight pushoff, then how do you not call the Michael Irvins, Keyshawn, T.O.s, etc., when they push off much more blatantly in every game?

    If the officiating had been merely incompetent, then bad calls would have gone against each team. This officiating was blatantly one-sided. Without the "mistakes" these officials made, Seattle wins the game, hands down, even with their bad clock management and dropped passes. Just look at how many points (not to mention momentum) were taken away from Seattle by the officials; one TD from Jackson, another almost certain TD from a holding call after Stevens caught the ball near the goal line, at least two strong drives by Seattle which would have resulted in at least a field goal- first when a long gain by Jackson deep into Pittsburgh territory was called back for holding, and then when Stevens definitely held on long enough for a catch, but fumbled the ball up field and out of bounds deep into Pittsburgh territory (they claimed he never had possession, which was ridiculous), which stopped another field goal at least. Those examples right there mean that the officials directly cost Seattle anywhere from 20 to 28 points. That's not sour grapes; I'm not a Seahawk fan. That's just a fact. I didn't start thinking games were fixed overnight; I've been watching these games since the early '60s. The NFL is a huge business, and there is no reason to believe that the corrupt forces that control government and big business would allow such an important part of our culture to remain uncorrupted and beyond their control. If we all can acknowledge that willful discrimination against more skilled players because of their skin color exists, then why can't we speculate that the games are fixed?
     
  16. White Shogun

    White Shogun Hall of Famer

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    Speculation is one thing, but actually believing they're all fixed is another.

    How can you believe the games are so obviously fixed when people here on Caste Football, with whom you are probably in agreement 99% the rest of the time, cannot even agree on the calls that were made. Don and I both think the ball touched the line on Ben's touchdown. I think the ball was incomplete on the play you describe as a fumble out of bounds. I noticed penalties on the Seahawks that were NOT called, that would have benefited the Steelers are great deal.

    When something is so obviously subjective, even among people who generally share the same worldview, how can you say unequivocally that the game was fixed?
     
  17. Colonel_Reb

    Colonel_Reb Hall of Famer

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    I think they blew plenty o' calls, especially the Big Ben "phantom TD."
     
  18. CountryBoy

    CountryBoy Newbie

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    Very possible that the NFL games are "fixed"

    Never really thought very hard on this subject. That's all I really have to say so far.....
     
  19. Bart

    Bart Hall of Famer

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    This is an interesting topic for many reasons. Human emotions and belief patterns often cloud our judgment. If I for instance root for a given team and they win a game, it will seem like just a bunch of sour grapes if the other side claims something fishy was going on. And it very well could be sour grapes. On the other hand we know that boxing matches have been fixed, probably more than we'd expect. The World Series -Black Sox- scandal was a huge story when it was dicovered, but was that the only one? Hard to know, if those involved are silent. Actually, only one person with an agenda could drastically alter the course of any game if you think about it. Game on the line a fielder drops a fly ball or misses a cut off or a batter misses a bunt or pitcher throws a wild pitch. A million ways.

    A quarterback can totally change the course of a game with several errant throws or just ONE killer INT or missed receiver in the end zone. Running backs, receivers and even a lineman can easily destroy their teams without being detected by anyone. How about a field goal kicker? So, so easy to win or lose a game on one kick.

    The same with refs. You don't need all of them acting in collusion. One guy can do enormous damage if he wanted to. Because of the incredible amount of gambling money involved, I wouldn't dismiss any of these situations. We know that many NFL players are capable of almost anything. Drugs and gambling connections could easily compromise some of these guys.

    The game doesn't necessarily have to be fixed given a winner or loser. How easy it would be to keep the game within a certain point spread for gambling purposes. Are all the officials and players above reproach? Let's face it, if holding or interference can be called on just about every play, a ref could throw or not throw a flag at his discretion. Now, on a close play in the end zone a ref could signal touchdown knowing that it would be almost impossible to over turn. Or how about a quick whistle negating huge plays? Spotting the ball to maintain or kill a drive would be so simple.

    Has anyone done research on racial aspects of officiating? How would we know if a black favors blacks or vice versa, who checks? When Sosa and Mcguire were fighting for the home run title, I thought Sosa was getting grooved pitches from some of the latin players. One day I mentioned to my wife, that Sosa would probably hit two homers that evening becasue he was facing a fellow Dominican. He did hit two, by the way, and on replays the pitches TO ME sure looked easy, right down the pike. Can I prove this? No, I can't but I'd like to see a statistician check into it someday. I could be wrong, being biased towards mark M.
     
  20. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    Some questions about whether the games are fixed:

    1. Who is in charge of fixing the games?
    2. Why doesn't somebody talk?
    3. Where does the money or influence come from?
    4. Why fix the games when you need the trust of the fans?
    5. If for example, the NFL and media are fixing, why don't they arrange for Michael Vick (or McNabb or McNair) to win a Super Bowl?

    It's not impossible for some point-shaving to happen. A player(s) might owe money to his drug supplier and drop a pass or fumble on purpose. Or he could place a bet through his home boys. These types would blunder and be found out, or somebody would talk. If you read any true crime, you'll find that criminals can't keep quiet if there are several people involved.

    Most of the fixing scenarios offered on this Forum have the NFL itself fixing the games. The NFL needs to have the fans thinking they are watching an honest game. What makes it worth the risk if they are found out? Why should players throw a game when there are more benefits to winning than there could be for losing? Also, letting up is the easiest way for a player to get seriously injured.
     
  21. White Shogun

    White Shogun Hall of Famer

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    Very rational and well thought out explanation, Bart. Thanks.

    I agree that it wouldn't take much for one player or a ref, as in the examples you cited, to have an impact on the game. I certainly concur with your theory that blacks and latinos are likely to help each other out in certain situations (see McNabb v Owens, et al.)

    I don't know though that the calls in the Super Bowl were of this caliber. The fans of Sports Nation sure agree with most of you here though that the refs were horrendous and the calls we've already discussed nauseum were incorrect.

    But there are other calls that were not made against the Hawks that could have been. Unless Stevens was in on it, the refs were not responsible for his dropped passes, or Jackson's out of bounds reception that he, himself, said he should have caught. They weren't mismanaging the 2:00 minute offense of the Seahawks at the end of each half. The refs weren't playing defense on Willie Parker's run or Hines Ward's grabs, although of course one could argue that the refs *could have* called holding or something on the Steelers to prevent those plays, had they desired to do so.

    I guess all this controversy begs the question, for those of you think the games are fixed, why do you bother to watch? From the diatribes I've read so far, it doesn't appear that it was all that entertaining, which is the reason fans of the WWE watch that stuff, even when they admit the matches are pre-arranged and choreographed.

    Do you think all games are fixed? Playoff games or just Super Bowls? Are the games fixed for gambling purposes primarily or some other more sinister purpose?
     
  22. reclaimsocal

    reclaimsocal Guru

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    I don't know about outright fixing, but for years I've been under the impression that the NFL definitely hands down edicts to the officials to call a game in favor of a particular team or star players. No proof, just a theory of mine.

    Pittsburgh has a far bigger following and the NFL stood to lose a lot of money in merchandise sales if the Seahawks would have won. I think its likely they have some sort of control over such a potential financial loss. I doubt they overtly tell the refs to fix it, but I suspect the officials are aware of the ramifications of it all.
     
  23. The Duke

    The Duke Newbie

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    Pittsburgh is about the #20 TV market, same with Seattle. If they wanted to fix games why not have a New York team against a team with a black quarterback in the Super Bowl? The failure of a black QB to win a Super Bowl since Doug Williams fluke game 20 years ago argues against a fix. If games are fixed it could only be for reasons having to do with gambling.
     
  24. GWTJ

    GWTJ Mentor

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    Bigunreal,

    I hope you are wrong. If the Steelers only won because the refs gave them the game then that is one secret that better stay a secret. If the refs got together with the NFL Commissioner and discussed how close they would let Seattle get during the game then we are all schmucks for buying into this whole thing.

    I am more under the inclination to beleive that the officials go with the better team or players. Similar to NBA refs giving the superstars more breaks than average players. But, like you, I have seen things that boggle my mind and make me feel like there is no other conclusion to draw except that the games are fixed.

    I would like to add that even the Steelers of the 70's, the consensus best dynasty of all time, got accused every year they won the Super Bowl of bing lucky and getting the benefit of the refs calls.
     
  25. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    I came to believe that NFL games are fixed for a variety of reasons. First of all, as a huge sports fan all my life, I have seen a whole lot of NFL games, since the early '60s. It wasn't until Super Bowl III (Jets vs. Colts), that I first began to believe the games were fixed. In retrospect, that particular game above all others was fixed, imho. At that point, the AFL was considered somewhat of a joke, and Pete Rozelle and co. were desperately trying to show they were on an equal footing with the NFL, since the leagues were about to merge. So many curious things happened in that game. The Jimmy Orr play, where the Colts called a flea flicker and he stood wide open downfield, waving his arms in futility, as everyone in the stadium saw him except Earl Morrall, who waited and then finally threw a pass towards another receiver, which was intercepted, was the most curious. That one play alone was more than fishy; Orr was the primary WR on a trick play- how could Morrall not have seen him? The fact that the game's most overrated "glamour boy," Joe Namath, was the QB for the upstart Jets, who were conveniently from New York, just made their win all the sweeter for Rozelle and co. Years later, Colt DE Bubba Smith publicly came out and said the game was fixed. His comments caused a minor furor for a few days, and were subsequently forgotten. Interestingly, Smith's acting career (mainly Miller Lite commercials and the "Police Academy" films) dried up after that. I don't know that he had any significant public presence after his comments. Then, back in the early to mid-'90s (can't remember the exact date), Redskin WR Irving Fryar publicly admitted to accepting money from someone (no jock-sniffing "journalist" ever had the curiousity to ever ask who) to help throw the Nebraska-Miami NCAA championship game. His comments were reported, without much critical scrutiny, and no one seemed bothered by the fact that a very prominent player had been in on a "fix" in college football's biggest game. It's hard to believe that Fryar's case was an isolated incident, but the NCAA, the NFL and the entire sports media asked no questions and did no investigation into any other possible cases of players being paid to throw games. Because of the questionable way many Colts players performed in Super Bowl III, and the known instance of a prominent college star (Fryar) being involved in at least one fixed game, I think that at least some players are involved, at least some of the time, in fixed games.

    As for why the NFL would want to fix games- why do they establish point spreads? Wouldn't it be in the general interest of those who control a huge business like the NFL to know in advance who is going to win games? Basic economics says that they could easily have their representatives place bets on teams (with or without any point spread stuff), and make even more money for themselves. On a different level, I believe that the most powerful people in our society-and all NFL owners qualify in this regard-want as much power and control as possible. As I've said before, if we can recognize that supposedly competitive coaches and general managers, who can lose their lucrative jobs by not winning enough games, are willingly selecting and playing inferior players just because of their skin color, then why would any of us consider the games they play to be above reproach? I don't know why they don't fix more games for black coaches and QBs, but I suspect that will eventually be the norm. Since I'm not privy to the specifics of any "fix," I don't know how they decide who's going to win any given game.

    Finally, since I am so cynical about most everything, I simply don't trust anything as big and influential as pro sports to be honest and clean. As to why no one involved has confessed, why would they? They are all living a great life, and making large sums of money (not to mention all the fringe benefits). Even if anyone wanted to expose the fix, who would they expose it to? We all know how controlled the major media is, and actually at least two players did mention games being fixed. Bubba Smith's comments were reported and ignored. The other player, Fryar, actually confessed to being part of a fix, and his comments were reported and ignored as well. I think that Caste Football has done a great job of exposing the corruption and dishonesty that permeates the sports world in regards to race. It's a short step, imho, from acknowledging that to acknowledging that the games themselves are fixed.
     

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