Schilling: Clemens should give up Cy’s

Discussion in 'Baseball' started by jaxvid, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. jaxvid

    jaxvid Hall of Famer

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    Schilling calls on Clemens to give up Cy Youngs

    I understand what Schilling is saying but this is similar to when he called out Barry Bonds. In that case his manager told him to shut up and the media pressure forced him to issue the *THWMA (*typical humbling white male apology).

    In this case I do not see the same pressures (wonder why??) in fact the media has taken up the call "Clemens RETURN those Cy Young awards!!!" Oddly enough the same call was NOT, and has NOT, been issued for Bonds to return any MVP's.
     
  2. Bart

    Bart Hall of Famer

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    That is true.He isn't even getting the benefit of being asterisked. It's give up your awards! And he can't even play the race card.
     
  3. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Clemens has strongly denied using steroids and wonders why he has been tried and convicted with no consideration that the allegations might be false. I agree, all we have is one man's unproven allegation. There's a story out just today detailing how Clemens has received an apology from the L.A. Times resulting from a story in 2006 "linking him to an [sic] court affidavit in a federal doping investigation."


    http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-71712 99,00.html


    Let's remember innocent until proven guilty. The reason I never thought ofClemens as a user is because his career was so consistent. He had a four-yeardropoff in the middle of it but otherwise he was dominant when he was young and dominant into his early 40s. That doesn't necessarilyindicate anything other than great talent mixed with determination and hard work. The Caste media has been salivating at the chance to nail Clemens; this report has given them their opening but it doesn't mean Clemens is guilty as charged, especially after so strongly denying using illegal substances.Edited by: Don Wassall
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Clemens strongly denying using illegal substances means nothing.

    They have all strongly denied using until they failed a drug test.

    From 1990 on EVERY baseball player used something.

    A natural result when the official policy was that steroids where banned but that there would be no testing for it.

    The only once who failed a drug test where the dumb ones.

    In honesty to make a real statement against steroid use every record since 1990 should be stricken from the record books .

    EVERY RECORD not just those from the players we personally dislike.
     
  5. Van_Slyke_CF

    Van_Slyke_CF Mentor

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    Turner: I`ll agree with you that PED use in MLB is rampant, and has been for a coupleof decades, in my opinion, but your statement that "[f]rom 1990 on EVERY baseball player used something," is irrational.


    EVERY player?


    "The only once who failed a drug test where the dumb ones."


    Keep trying, Turner.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    every player who meant something used something ?.

    The official policy of MLB was steroids are illegal but we will not test for them .

    Rules mean nothing if they are not enforced.

    If you are a pro player who has spent his life playing baseball but you know that you will need the juice to get to the next level and you also know that they wont test for it you would be foolish to stay clean for ''moral'' reasons.

    being a pro athlete means that you make a living based on how you perform in the field. If you stay clean for ''moral'' reasons you wont make money and you probably won't have a carreer.

    A pro athlete does not play for fun or love of the game he plays for MONEY.
     
  7. Bear-Arms

    Bear-Arms Mentor

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    Not just Clemens, but pitchers in general. I won't even say the media. I think the people that want to end steroid abuse have to go after the best players. Fans see players like Jim Parque on the list and it proves to them that only mediocre players need to abuse steroids. But you nail top tier athletes and fans start paying attention.
     
  8. jaxvid

    jaxvid Hall of Famer

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    The all-time HR champ is obviously guilty and that meant very little to the fans? Sosa failed a test as did Paliermo and that didn't mean anything? What has to happen to mean anything to the fans? From what I've seen on message boards they already thought Clemens was guilty anyway.

    Now if you're talking meaning something to the press, well that's a different story. The biggest white athletes head on plate is their goal and Clemens fits the bill. That's the real story behind the Clemens witch hunt.
     
  9. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    The media is so pc that a politically correct tit for tat is what these guys would love. Also obscure black journalists can make a name for themselves shouting to the rafters about Clemens. The evidence against Clemens is circumstantial, while the evidence against Bonds is overwhelming....... [​IMG] Edited by: white is right
     
  10. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    The Mitchell Report was manna from heaven for the jock- sniffing "journalists" and drunk white fans alike. Because one of the few white superstars in the game was mentioned more prominently than any other player, they can feel free to jump all over him and demand the kind of strict punishment that they once demanded (and still demand) for Pete Rose.

    I've never particularly liked Roger Clemens as a person; he has a reputation for being arrogant and not especially friendly to fans. That's pretty typical behavior for MLB players, but it still irks me. However, he is being held to a different standard than Barry Bonds, and that bothers me a lot more. Is there any question that a black player would be presumed, by all jock-sniffers in the media, to be "innocent until proven guilty" if he were in Clemens' position? One of the few times you still hear any reference to this cherished right we all supposedly have is when some black celebrity is charged with a crime.

    Curt Schilling is your standard white athlete; ready to pounce on a fellow white player with far more venom than he'd ever display towards the lowliest black player in the league.

    I certainly hope that Roger Clemens didn't take steroids, and can demonstrate that to the public (although the burden of proof should be on his accuser). If his defense is unimpressive, or if he eventually admits to using steroids at all, then he will join Pete Rose as the only superstars in the history of any modern sport to be effectively banned for life from the Hall of Fame.
     
  11. PitBull

    PitBull Guru

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    You only get banned from the Hall of Fame for associating gambling with
    baseball, i.e. Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose.

    I think the heat was put on Clemens, a sure Hall of Famer, to justify putting
    Bonds in too. That's how it will work. If Bonds goes in, so will Sosa,
    McGwire, and all the other steroid-fueled minority players, like A-Rod,
    Griffey Jr., Guerrero, etc. Its a way to keep the pushing of white athletes out
    of MLB on track, by eliminating they from the field and the record books.
     
  12. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Greg Maddux also believes Clemens is innocent until proven guilty: "I think Roger has earned the right, innocent until proven guilty. At least, that's the way I think it should be. He says he didn't do it. Right now, I believe him."


    http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/births/2008/jan/05 /566621403.html


    Clemens has also been subpoened to testify under oath in front of Congress on January 16th. Hmm, once again Barry Bonds was skipped over.
     
  13. Bart

    Bart Hall of Famer

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    This is getting more and more interesting. Clemens is fighting back and will testify. The -60 Minutes- interview and now this recording.


    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AkL2dY3jERRhFVm9hdGjLd s5nYcB?slug=ap-steroids-clemens&prov=ap&type=lgns



    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%">
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    <DIV =title>McNamee says he'd go to jail for Clemens</TD></TR>
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    <TD =yspwidearticle>By JAIME ARON, AP Sports Writer
    January 7, 2008</TD></TR></T></TABLE>


    HOUSTON (AP) -- Roger Clemens' former trainer said he was willing to go to jail and repeatedly asked the pitcher "what do you want me to do?" during a 17-minute telephone conversation last week.


    A recording of last Friday's conversation between Clemens and Brian McNamee was played Monday at the start of Clemens' news conference. Clemens' lawyers said that because McNamee didn't deny Clemens' claims that he never used steroids, it amounted to proof that Clemens was telling the truth.


    "I'll go to jail, I'll do whatever you want," McNamee said during the conversation.


    "I need somebody to tell the truth," Clemens said.


    During the tape, McNamee never said he lied when he told baseball investigator George Mitchell last year that he injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone in 1998, 2000 and 2001.


    I'm in your corner," McNamee said. "I'd also like not to go to jail, too."


    Late Sunday, Clemens filed a defamation suit against McNamee in Texas state court.


    Clemens was mostly expressionless while the tape played, even when McNamee said, "You treated me like family."


    Clemens said McNamee initiated the conversation, which was laced with emotion and profanity. McNamee, a former strength coach for the Toronto Blue Jays and New York Yankees, sounded as if he were a desperate man.


    "I'm firing my lawyers. I'm getting rid of everybody," McNamee said. "My wife is gone. My kids are gone."


    (snip)
     
  14. Maple Leaf

    Maple Leaf Mentor

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    So? Where's the evidence? I'm waiting...
     
  15. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    Well, Clemens better be innocent after the strong denials he has made. I would want him to take a lie detector test.
     
  16. GWTJ

    GWTJ Mentor

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    Why should Clemens be the one to take a lie detector test? Let his accuser take one and pass it before making Clemens take one. I have never liked the idea of the accused being forced to take a lie detector test or give blood or DNA to prove their innocence.
     
  17. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    The Duke Lacrosse players took lie detector tests and gave blood for DNA. If you do so and pass, it means you are innocent. I would like for Clemens' accuser to take one as well.
     
  18. Bart

    Bart Hall of Famer

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    Did baseball's investigators have any evidence otherthan this guy's testimony? I hadn't read the full report.


    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhfOb0MpdtnrevpaaeJkQp w5nYcB?slug=ap-clemens-lawsuit&amp;prov=ap&amp;type=lgns



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    <DIV =title>St. Petersburg police records: Clemens' ex-trainer lied during 2001 rape case</TD></TR>
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    <TD =yspwidearticle>By ANTHONY McCARTNEY, Associated Press Writer
    January 8, 2008





    ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. (AP) -- Detectives believed the former New York Yankees trainer who says he injected Roger Clemens with steroids lied to them during the 2001 investigation of a possible rape, according to documents released Tuesday by police.


    Police said Brian McNamee denied having sex with a possibly drugged woman in a hotel pool, even though security guards and other witnesses said they saw him.


    (snip)</TD></TR></T></TABLE>
     
  19. GWTJ

    GWTJ Mentor

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    Unlike DNA, taking a lie detector test proves nothing in a court of law. I would not compare the Duke players giving DNA to Clemens taking a lie detector test.

    My point is, why should the innocent be forced to prove it. If the prosecuter in the Duke case had wanted DNA from every male student on campus that night should everyone comply? I say no. These DNA dragnets violate our civil rights and if more people had better knowledge of their rights the police state would not be as powerful.

    I am not interested in giving up my rights so the police can do their job better. If they had their way, we would all have GPS chips in our arms.
     
  20. jaxvid

    jaxvid Hall of Famer

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    I am in complete agreement with the sentimant above however this isn't a court of law issue. MLB is a private organization and Clemens is not facing punishment from the government, actually his biggest punishment will come from the court of public opinion which means he should do what he needs to win that case and we all know that a lie detector test is very convincing to the public even though it's so unreliable it's not admissable as evidence in a real court.
     

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