Real Sports on steroids

[JD074]

Did anybody catch the segment on steroids on Real Sports with Bryant Gumble recently? They discussed the idea that there's little to no evidence that steroids is that harmful when used properly by adult males (as opposed to being abused, or taken by youth.) They had a couple of guys on there that have taken steroids "off and on" for 20-30 years or more with no ill effect. I've read about this "contrarian" viewpoint on the Internet before, but it's nice to see the debate go mainstream. Hormones are very important and very powerful, and you'd think that messing with them could lead to some serious problems down the road. There's been a lot of criticism of Hormone Replacement Therapy for women, for example. Hopefully this will fuel more research on the issue.

Of course the Libertarian in me wants to tell the government to get out of our medicine cabinets and let consenting adults do want they want with their own bodies. Men who have had sex change operations can take hormones to be more feminine, but regular guys can't take it to get bigger muscles? Pretty dumb.

 

[White_Savage]

JD:
I don't like the use of steroids in sport myself, but I agree, government in sports our our medical cabinets is by far the greater evil. Little piece I wrote about this issue and my "favorite" senator from Arizona:

<center>MLB Vrs. Das Fuhrer McCain</center>



I am never watching Major League Baseball again.

Admittedly, activities involving teams of men playing with balls have alway held little attraction for me.. But a baseball game is something I would watch. Baseball had a certain tradition, a certain poetry, the samurai-like showdown between pitcher and batter, the Great American Game. The fact that for a time modern baseball's most prominent figure was a red headed Irishman didn't hurt.

But no more.

They've done things I don't like before. The bad behavior of the players, the fact that cities use theft to fund construction of places for the overpayed bastards to play, these didn't make me happy.

A scoundrel may be likable, but a coward is always contemptable. And nothing but cowardice can describe bending before the threats Nazi Nanny-Stater John McCain.

The inevitable question "Well, do you think baseball players should be on the steroids, huh, do you?" Of course not. They SHOULD not. However it's not my place, nor anybody else's, to tell folks what they can put in their bodies. Now of course, a private organization, like a club or business, CAN demand certain conditions for membership, just as you can dictate who comes into your house. And no one, especially dried up shrill RINOs like McCain, has the right to dictate what these conditions should be.

So there you have it. In this situation, MLB's concession to the most odious man in the Republican party makes it unforgivable. I guess I'll just have to stick with watching UFC/mixed-martial arts from now on...

Well, you know, unless McCain has his way. Believe it or not, the Lady Senator from Arizona made a good run at getting mixed martial arts banned in this country. Nevermind the fact that no one has the slightest right to interfere in voluntary activities between two men (whether battle or bedroom). Also nevermind the fact that no one has ever been killed in MMA competition in this country, while at least one or two boxers die in the ring per year.* McCain you see is a boxing fan as well as a bloated bag of bilge and hypocrisy. He acutely reminds me of one of those people H.L Mencken described as waking up in the middle of the night, trembling with the fear that somewhere, someone was happy.

And let's not even get into the way he pissed on the First Amendment to our Constitution while doing the bi-partisan goose step with comrade Feingold. Yes, let's make it illegal to advertise our political opinions, unless you're Dan Rather or a billionaire Hungarian stalinist with a 527. (We all know that campaign finance reform was aimed at the NRA, because, despite being a Necrotic Republican Appendage, they do occasionally remind people that their freedom exists because of armed resistance to government.)

And don't hand me any of that "but McCain's a war hero/POW" crap.

There once was a fellow named SheckelGruber, a simple paper-hanger by trade, who distinguished himself fighting for his country, was wounded, won a medal, and spent time in prison. He later changed his last name to Hitler and became succesful in politics. Need I go on? Though no one is a man without physical bravery, it is far from the only nessecary quality.

Give each one what they deserve. To hell with baseball, I hope it crashes and burns, and McCain, I hope you're the first Republican at the neck-tie party when this country comes to it's senses.

I Remain,
Mathew Bailey

*(As an aside, MMA is arguably healthier for you than boxing for several reasons. Boxing gloves protect the hands and lessen the surface damage a bare first can do to flesh and bone somewhat, but they also add weight to the fist and thus momentum, which substantially increases the shock actually afflicting the brain itself. The brain damage and the permanent "punch drunkeness" of an old pug were unknown in the bare-knuckle era. Tapping out of a choke or jointlock is also a hell of alot easier on you than getting K.Oed, I say from both a personal and medical standpoint.)

 

[JD074]

I should also make the point that the show was about steroid use in general, not among athletes. Steroids in sports is a different matter than the average guy taking it to get bigger muscles. I agree with the writer that a private organization has the right to restrict the use of "performance- enhancing substances" if they so choose (or not restrict them if that's their preference.) But the government should have better things to do than meddle in the steroid issue, whether it's athletes or non-athletes doing it. It's just more War on Drugs nonsense.

(And I liked his point that tax dollars shouldn't go to building stadiums.)

Another thing about MMA is that the fight is ended after a fighter goes down once. He's not going to get hit over and over and over again like in boxing. Also, I heard an MMA fighter say that they take a lot less abuse during sparring as well.

 

[White Shogun]

Kind of a weird thread for a boxing/MMA discussion, but I'll add my .02.

Another thing about MMA is that the fight is ended after a fighter goes down once. He's not going to get hit over and over and over again like in boxing.

One thing you'll notice if you watch enough of both boxing and martial arts, is that boxers usually become 'woozy' after receiving a knockout punch, and stagger around punch-drunk before they hit the mat. They come up with rubbery legs and can still stand for a while, before going down again eventually. This is true of white, black, and brown fighters.

But in a MMA bout, if you see a guy get hit with a KO shot, he is usually, as they say, KTFO. Heads bounce off the mats, most of them the best they can do is go legs up in a half-ass guard position. Plus, fighters in MMA after throwing a KO-type shot WILL BE ON YOU, without let up. A lot of boxers seem to lack that killer instinct. Again, I think this has to do with the lighter weight gloves and the difference in the types of punches thrown in MMA vs boxing.

 

[bigunreal]

White Savage-



Good article about McCainiac. This guy is the scariest politician of
modern times. His entire political career was built on being a POW.
POW-MIA activists despise him like no other politician, because of his
unswerving devotion to covering up and/or refusing to investigte the
multitude of credible sightings of live POWs left behind in Viet Nam.
This clown has been painted as a "reformer" and "maverick" by the
mainstream media, which reveals both their incredible gall and the
depth of voter stupidity. He appears on entertainment shows like "Conan
O'Brian," and the audience cheers him wildly. Why? For what? THEY want
him to become president more than they want anyone else. This
thoroughly corrupt and despicable, mean-spirited, uncharasmatic,
unattractive, milquetoast mainstream party hack would actually make
civil libertarians long for Dubya. I would actually vote for Hilary
Clinton over him.

 

[White_Savage]

Shogun:
Interesting.

This an article I ran across.Bare-Knuckle Boxing

While the author is a well-known martial arts loony of the standard type, and should be thrown in the ring with an amateur MMA competior for an asskicking because of his desire to ban combat sports. However, it does feature a group of doctors who concur with the afore mentioned observations about bareknuckle K.O.s and brain damage vrs. gloved competition.

 

[White_Savage]

http://www.murphybrothers.org/Spartaca/Bareknuckle.htm

Another article on the same subject.

 

[White Shogun]

Thanks for the links, Savage.

I think you'd see guys less willing to take a punch to the face, too, if there were no gloves. Comparing the two again, another observation one might make is that boxers do not tend to try and avoid punches as much as MMA fighters do. I realize that they are more used to being hit, per se, in a boxing style match, but you rarely ever see two guys in MMA just standing toe-to-toe trading blows. Somebody will get KTFO quick.

 

[JD074]

Here's a couple more articles about steroids and those dumb politicians. This is from a site that's obviously, unabashedly pro-steroids; you can ignore the ads for their e-books (if that sort of thing freaks you out) and just read the articles. They're very well-written.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/newsletters/2005/07/12.htm

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/carroll/semantics-of-s teroids.htm

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the links, Savage.

I think you'd see guys less willing to take a punch to the face, too, if there were no gloves. Comparing the two again, another observation one might make is that boxers do not tend to try and avoid punches as much as MMA fighters do. I realize that they are more used to being hit, per se, in a boxing style match, but you rarely ever see two guys in MMA just standing toe-to-toe trading blows. Somebody will get KTFO quick.

Are you claiming that MMA fighters are better boxers then boxers themselves ?.

 

[White_Savage]

The best strikers in NHB are better at "nearly bare-knuckle" boxing than boxers simply because it's a different game. I say "nearly" because they do wear enough padding on their fists so that the striking effeciency of the fist is not as reduced as it would be in true bare-knuckle fighting. As well as being more likely to cause someone to be KTFO with one clean blow, the nearly bare hand is harder to defend because it's quicker and can slip into a tighter opening. Also, alot of the defensive tactics that are great in boxing, for instance the crouch/ducking, just get your head pulled down and kneed or kicked in NHB. Add the fact that the bare hand can grab and catch, and all the possibilities that arise from clinching/grappling, and the striking strategy in NHB just has to be different from less realistic combat sports. Boxing, it turns out, while a grand sport and alot more realistic than the air-punching kata of a McDojo, still is not a very good approximation of unarmed combat.

 

[White Shogun]

Boxing gloves are so big you can put them in front of your face and block a punch. Its called the cover-up.

Your bare fists won't do that for you.

 

[Guest]

The best strikers in NHB are better at "nearly bare-knuckle" boxing than boxers simply because it's a different game. I say "nearly" because they do wear enough padding on their fists so that the striking effeciency of the fist is not as reduced as it would be in true bare-knuckle fighting. As well as being more likely to cause someone to be KTFO with one clean blow, the nearly bare hand is harder to defend because it's quicker and can slip into a tighter opening. Also, alot of the defensive tactics that are great in boxing, for instance the crouch/ducking, just get your head pulled down and kneed or kicked in NHB. Add the fact that the bare hand can grab and catch, and all the possibilities that arise from clinching/grappling, and the striking strategy in NHB just has to be different from less realistic combat sports. Boxing, it turns out, while a grand sport and alot more realistic than the air-punching kata of a McDojo, still is not a very good approximation of unarmed combat.

Bareknuckle boxing also has the greater chance of your hands breaking. Thats why they started using gloves not to protect the head but the hands so that fighters could punch more and harder.


Modern gloved punches are harder then vertical bareknuckle punches


A bareknuckle boxing match was also considerably slower then a modern match because of the risk of carreer ending hand fractures every punch had to count . 10 punches a round would be considered an exciting round.

 

[White_Savage]

And your point is faux-fighter? This is precisely why NHB strikers started wearing those mits...it's just enough protection to allow them to punch hard without slowing down their hand or reducing dexterity. Have you ever even watched a MMA match between two strikers? Slow is not how I would describe the action. I don't think the hand speed I see is a result of every MMA fighter being a speed freak, just their hands are less encumbered. It coulsd be argued this reduces the street-realism of MMA competition somewhat though.

And as I said, it turns out that boxing is alot less street-realistic than most thought before MMA. Also of course, it turns out that the greatest FIGHTERS, as opposed to boxers, are mostly WHITE.

 

[Guest]

And your point is faux-fighter? This is precisely why NHB strikers started wearing those mits...it's just enough protection to allow them to punch hard without slowing down their hand or reducing dexterity. Have you ever even watched a MMA match between two strikers? Slow is not how I would describe the action. I don't think the hand speed I see is a result of every MMA fighter being a speed freak, just their hands are less encumbered. It coulsd be argued this reduces the street-realism of MMA competition somewhat though.

And as I said, it turns out that boxing is alot less street-realistic than most thought before MMA. Also of course, it turns out that the greatest FIGHTERS, as opposed to boxers, are mostly WHITE.

Many MMA fighters still have vastly inferior hands skills compared to boxers.

 

[White_Savage]

A complete irrelevancy faux-fighter, you could just as easily say the basketball skills of many MMA fighters are inferior, but like gloved boxing, such has little or nothing to do with who wins in the MMA ring. A MMA fighter must be able to put up a defense on so many varied fronts and be able to do something of everything offensively. Comparing boxing to MMA is abit like comparing ping-pong to tennis, or checkers to chess.

You'll note that many high-level wrestlers were able to come in and dominate in MMA with little training outside their grappling careers, the same cannot be said for boxing.

 

[Guest]

A complete irrelevancy faux-fighter, you could just as easily say the basketball skills of many MMA fighters are inferior, but like gloved boxing, such has little or nothing to do with who wins in the MMA ring. A MMA fighter must be able to put up a defense on so many varied fronts and be able to do something of everything offensively. Comparing boxing to MMA is abit like comparing ping-pong to tennis, or checkers to chess.

You'll note that many high-level wrestlers were able to come in and dominate in MMA with little training outside their grappling careers, the same cannot be said for boxing.

Yes wrestlers came in and dominated MMA.


Guys who have never boxed cannot jump in and dominate in boxing. They would'nt get past the Journeymen and bums.


MMA any guy with wrestling skills has a fair chance of reaching the top


Boxing If you dont have skills honed by years of training and the talent you dont make it to the top.


I think the difference is clear.


All to easy

 

[White Shogun]

I must say fits, you must've taken some typing lessons. Much better grammar, thank you, your posts are a lot easier to read and your point isn't lost in the mumbo-jumbo of typese with which you to write.

I'm not sure if you're missing the point that WS is making on purpose or if you really just being obstinate. Boxers cannot come in and win an MMA bout. I agree that MMA fighters are not likely to win a BOXING match against a BOXER.

The point is, in a bout with no rules, like a REAL fight, an MMA fighter will beat a boxer easily.

If you're talking about each competing in each others respective events, the one who is trained in that sport will win. But if you're talking about a FIGHT, busting somebody's ass on the street, where knowing how to fight REALLY counts, the MMA fighter would normally win.

Get it?

 

[Guest]

I must say fits, you must've taken some typing lessons. Much better grammar, thank you, your posts are a lot easier to read and your point isn't lost in the mumbo-jumbo of typese with which you to write.

I'm not sure if you're missing the point that WS is making on purpose or if you really just being obstinate. Boxers cannot come in and win an MMA bout. I agree that MMA fighters are not likely to win a BOXING match against a BOXER.

The point is, in a bout with no rules, like a REAL fight, an MMA fighter will beat a boxer easily.

If you're talking about each competing in each others respective events, the one who is trained in that sport will win. But if you're talking about a FIGHT, busting somebody's ass on the street, where knowing how to fight REALLY counts, the MMA fighter would normally win.

Get it?

The point i was making is that the MMA talent pool is considerably less then the boxing talent pool.


As WS said guys who where top amateur wrestlers where able to become champions in MMA in a relativelly short time.


NO amateur boxing champ could become a boxing champ in a short time . Boxing has a much larger talent pool and therefore a much tougher road to the top. The average boxing champ is much better at his sport then the average MMA champ at his .

 

[White_Savage]

Yes, faux-fighter seems intent on proving himself an illiterate on every turn.

My point was that wrestlers (And MMA has had WORLD class wrestlers like Coleman, Couture, etc, not amateurs) were able to come in and easily win NHB fighting and that pure boxers were NOT, and never have been able to. This of course highly contrary to what most people would have expected prior to MMA events. Considering that modern wrestling is admittedly a sport form crippled by many rules against precisely the sort of things one would like to do in a fight, the athleticism and adaptability of these men is undeniable.

That you think the average boxing champion is much better at his sport than MMA champions is proof you have never watched high-level MMA competition. MMA requires more from it's athletes physically in terms of strength, endurance, and ruggedness, and certainly more from it's competitors mentally due to it's complexity. (Perhaps a clue as to why so few ******** are competitive in it.)

The only "talents" MMA arguably requires less of than boxing are long arms and a face well-designed for use as a punching bag...but then again, you WOULD be bias towards the sports that favor the more "Primate-esque" folks, now wouldn't you?

It's also crazy that you want to criticize MMA stand-up from a boxing standpoint...punches are only one small part of the picture, and so much of boxing technique is rendered irrelevant or even suicidal. A boxer must master throwing hands and defending against the same...that's it. A MMA must have adequate defense against ALL the possible techniques of standing, clinching, and grappling range, and must be a master of at least one of these areas, more likely several, if he's a champion.

 

[Guest]

Yes, faux-fighter seems intent on proving himself an illiterate on every turn.

My point was that wrestlers (And MMA has had WORLD class wrestlers like Coleman, Couture, etc, not amateurs) were able to come in and easily win NHB fighting and that pure boxers were NOT, and never have been able to. This of course highly contrary to what most people would have expected prior to MMA events. Considering that modern wrestling is admittedly a sport form crippled by many rules against precisely the sort of things one would like to do in a fight, the athleticism and adaptability of these men is undeniable.

That you think the average boxing champion is much better at his sport than MMA champions is proof you have never watched high-level MMA competition. MMA requires more from it's athletes physically in terms of strength, endurance, and ruggedness, and certainly more from it's competitors mentally due to it's complexity. (Perhaps a clue as to why so few ******** are competitive in it.)

The only "talents" MMA arguably requires less of than boxing are long arms and a face well-designed for use as a punching bag...but then again, you WOULD be bias towards the sports that favor the more "Primate-esque" folks, now wouldn't you?

It's also crazy that you want to criticize MMA stand-up from a boxing standpoint...punches are only one small part of the picture, and so much of boxing technique is rendered irrelevant or even suicidal. A boxer must master throwing hands and defending against the same...that's it. A MMA must have adequate defense against ALL the possible techniques of standing, clinching, and grappling range, and must be a master of at least one of these areas, more likely several, if he's a champion.

If guys came come to dominate a sport with just wrestl;ing experience then the overall TALENT pool of MMA is not good . Since that means that there are not nearly enough good fighters if guys can come in proficient in just one art to dominate.


And top boxers dont waste their time entering MMA events because if you have what it takes to make it in boxing you dont go for second best in MMA.

 

[Kaptain]

Are you trying to say that top boxers could dominate in MMA if they just entered? Clearly, you no little about boxing, but even less about MMA. NO pure boxer would dominate even the lower levels of MMA.

 

[White_Savage]

No, idiot, it means wrestling is alot better sport for real fighting that boxing. Top boxers HAVE entered the UFC, Art Jimmerson was #10 light-heavyweight when he got thrashed at the first UFC, that story has been repeated and MMA competitors have only gotten better, now that the fighters are profecient in multiple arts.

The 5% of boxers who make better money at boxing than they could make by becoming a UFC champion, maybe that's a valid excuse. The other 95%, theres only one reason they never entered a UFC tournament and made $50,000 for one nights work-they don't have the skills to hang in a fight that doesn't have a boatload of complex rules to protect them.

You don't like the UFC because it proves ********,despite being inclined towards violent crime, on a P4P basis come in dead last behind every other race in real mano-a-mano combat between trained exponents...funny, thats the same thing history in general proves, seeing as how Africans have been conquered and enslaved by every other culture that bothered to try.

 

[Guest]

No, idiot, it means wrestling is alot better sport for real fighting that boxing. Top boxers HAVE entered the UFC, Art Jimmerson was #10 light-heavyweight when he got thrashed at the first UFC, that story has been repeated and MMA competitors have only gotten better, now that the fighters are profecient in multiple arts.

The 5% of boxers who make better money at boxing than they could make by becoming a UFC champion, maybe that's a valid excuse. The other 95%, theres only one reason they never entered a UFC tournament and made $50,000 for one nights work-they don't have the skills to hang in a fight that doesn't have a boatload of complex rules to protect them.

You don't like the UFC because it proves ********,despite being inclined towards violent crime, on a P4P basis come in dead last behind every other race in real mano-a-mano combat between trained exponents...funny, thats the same thing history in general proves, seeing as how Africans have been conquered and enslaved by every other culture that bothered to try.

Art Jimmerson

? Pleazze he entered the UFC after he WASHED OUT of boxing because he could'nt compete anymore. Stop bringing him up its been done.


Boxing even at lower levels brings greater name recognition and better money.The money you stand to make in MMA ascompared to boxing is peanuts. The better paying Sport garners the better athlete .

 

[White_Savage]

Jimmerson was beaten by Royce Gracie, who doesn't compare well to the best MMA champions of today, so it was a fair boxing vrs. jujitsu/mma test. And it's been done repeatedly since then. Besides, the way you talk, any boxer who retains a shred of competence should be able to win against MMA fighters, right?

And how many boxers can make $50,000 dollars for one nights work? What % of boxers have the name recognition of Gracie, Ortiz, Couture, Liddell? As I say, if there was some "Great Black hope" who could easily step out of the boxing ring and sweep the NHB world, he would. Ain't gonna happen. Maurice Smith did something abit like this, but he was a world-class kickboxer, and all his victories basically came from A. grapplers not respecting kickboxing skills, and B. Referess standing the fight back up after Mo got put on his back. As soon as great MMA fighters, like Couture, figured you have to learn to deal with kickboxing, he no longer stood a chance. A boxer with even fewer tools to work with than a kickboxer stands almost no chance.

The difference you don't want to admit is simply in a real fight the superior p4p strength, endurance, and intelligence of the white athlete is more than enough to make up for the long primate arms and flat facial features that give ******** such an advantage in boxing.