Pavlik - Hopkins on 10/18/08 per Bob Arum

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by mrjohnnynofear, Jul 18, 2008.

  1. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    He gained weight the old fashion way by shedding less fat and retaining more water. Hopkins gained it the modern way with weight lifting and protein shakes and possible PED usage. It showed when they went inside. Old Man River out muscled and tied up the weaker Pavlik. Besides his power Pavlik has always had a strength advantage against his opponents at 160. Going up against a big light heavy he had none.
     
  2. guest301

    guest301 Hall of Famer

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    The MSM certainly loves the result of this fight. They have had very few reasons to celebrate black vs white victories in big fights over the last decade and so they overcompensate by overcelebrating and making things bigger than they are.

    I usually can't stand ESPN's loudmouth Stevin Smith but he did give alot of props to Kelly Pavlik today and said that Pavlik was his "favorite" boxer and that he should have stayed at 160. All is not lost folks, Kelly will be back and hopefully better and most importantly wiser.Edited by: guest301
     
  3. Keith Lincoln

    Keith Lincoln Newbie

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    Trainers can make or break a fighter. When Tyson got rid of Kevin Rooney ,he committed career suicide. Since Emanuel Stewart began working with Wladimir Klitschko he has improved greatly. If Kelly can accomplish as much as he did with a trainer who is not a pro, imagine if someone like Manny Stewart was his trainer. Kelly should get a top professional trainer. Kelly could give his current trainer a small piece of future fights, to soothe any guilt Kelly would feel about switching trainers. Kelly is a fabulous talent.. His current trainer should step aside and let Kelly fulfill his potential.
     
  4. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

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    This is just one loss. Almost every fighter gets a few loses in there careers. Not everyone can be Joe Calzaghe and we need to remember that. This could be a positive for Pavlik and he can learn from his mistakes. He's still one of the best fighters in the world.
     
  5. Blue Devils

    Blue Devils Mentor

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    Hopefully the loss will have a positive impact on Pavlik. Kostya Tszyu mentioned that his loss to Phillips made him a better fighter.
     
  6. Maple Leaf

    Maple Leaf Mentor

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    I do not know what some of you posters here are thinking but... gentlemen, this weight business of Pavlik ins't making any sense. Pavlik is a middleweight, right? He weighsin at 160 for middleweight fights. He has to boil himself down to 160 from approximately 170 to make that weight. He trains all the time and has bottomed out at 170 as his training weight. It is only for fights that he boils off the extra 10 pounds prior to a fight and then puts it back on after the weigh-in. That is all very clear.

    Now against Hopkins he weighed in at 170 at the weigh-in. What that means is he was still the same fighter he always was fighting at his natural weight but he did not have to go through the 10 pound melt down so he was supposed to be fresher, less weight drained, and have more energy. He certainly should just have been himself with the same speed and power but with more energy.

    But what did we see in Pavlik? He went from a fighter who can throw up to 100 punches per round to a fighter who threw on average 35 punches per round. So what happened to Pavlik since this weight story does not wash?

    Pavlik went from being a very busy and aggressive fighter to one who was covering up much of the time and missing on his offense. Pavlik was pysched out. I do not mean intimidated insomuch as he was confused into being defensive. That is the only thing that explains it. Hopkins has been able to make a career out of making fighters fight his fight and forgetting about their own. How does a 43 year old weighing 185 for the fight look faster than the 26 year old weighing 170? Certainly Hopkins takes drugs to maintain his form but drugs will not help in the use of strategy and tactics to deploy the strategy. Hopkins does it by breaking into his opponents rythm and punch sequences, controlling distance, and by ruining his opponents sense of timing. When knowledgeable trainers talk about the sweet science, this is what they are talking about.

    Right from the opening bell, as Pavlik was setting up and getting ready to start his double-triple jab then straight right, Hopkins jumped at him with short inside punches. Then Hopkins would move left or right and turn to his side showing a narrower target. Pavlik would set up again to restart his sequence but Hopkins would jump back at him and punch when it was supposed to be Pavlik's "turn". When Pavlik came close Hopkins would grab his arms and hold to further frustrate him. Hopkins used many other gimmicks and ruses such as varying his hand positions and punching from different positions. Pavlik showed no immagination, no creativity, no forethought, no fakes, pumps, or rolls. Inside Pavlik never used his thumbs, never "missed" a hook and connected with an elbow, never stepped on Hopkins' feet to hold him in place, never stuck his lead foot between Hopkin's legs to trip him and slow his slip outs. Nothing, nothing, nothing.

    Weight wasn't Pavlik's problem that night. Pavlik came to the ring with only one fight in mind and was not prepared to use or devise another one. When Calzaghe was knocked down in the first round against Hopkins he could have done what Tarver and Pavlik did and spend the rest of the night worried about Hopkins' counterpunches. Instead he adjusted his plan and went to smothering Hopkins with cascading punches the counterpuncher couldn't figure out. Pavlik should have done the same but the fact is he didn't because he let Hopkins have his way. Hopkins spoiled Pavlik's style and Pavlik -and his trainer- had no plan how to get it back.
     
  7. aussieaussie31

    aussieaussie31 Guru

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    Calzaghe is better than I thought. I always felt Calzaghe was one hell of a fighter. However I thought to myself that if he ever met Pavlik that Pavlik would knock him out. I regret not seeing Calzaghe fight more. I think if Calzaghe would have been managed differently he could have been a household name in the states. Calzaghe took Hopkins out of his game, something Trinidad, Delahoya, Pavlik, Tarver, and many other great fighters were unable to do. Props to Calzaghe. He truly is the best fighter in boxing in my opinion. Let's hope Joey defeats Jones and goes out into the sunset a undefeated boxing king.
     
  8. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Regarding the money aspect, there was a very good article in ESPN The Magazine (of all places) in the last issue about Pavlik. The man still lives and hangs out in Youngstown. When he's training for a fight he lives in his parents' house. Hehangs outand plays darts at a local pub. He is about as non-materialistic and down to earth as one can imagine someone in his position being, and he is utterly loyal to his friends and his roots. Youngstown is a devastated city; I recommend drivingaround itsometime if you want to see firsthand what's happened to a mostly white formerly industrial city.


    He received and took some bad advice about this fight, but it's not because he's a greedy person. As someone mentioned, look at the pathetic Peter who wouldn't even get offhis stool and keep fighting. Very few fighters retire undefeated. Kelly still has his title. He had a bad fight. He needs to stay at his natural weight, learn the right lessons and move forward.
     
  9. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

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    Mapleleaf the difference in why Calzaghe beat Hopkins and Pavlik didn't is hand speed. Calzaghe may have the best hand speed in boxing today and this is why he beat Hopkins. He was just way too quick.
     
  10. pt.guard2

    pt.guard2 Guru

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    Good points, Maple Leaf. Unlike Calzaghe, Pavlik had no "B" plan. Whiteathlete33 is also spot on about the difference in hand speed between Joe C. and Pavlik.

    Like all on this site, I was obviously disappointed in this result, but agree that Kelly will be able to rebound from this defeat and believe we should support our athletes through both good and bad times.

    Like Don said, he just had a bad fight and unlike Peter at least had enough pride to keep going even when it was obvious it was not his night.
     
  11. P-NutLane

    P-NutLane Guru

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    Well my friends. Hopkins won the decision. I must admit that I actualy got a little sick when I read about it. I sure hope Joe will KO Roy Jones. Who I like much more than Bernard the retard. Pavlik will be O.K. He is truly a champion, he will bounce back and hang around for years to come.
     
  12. johnnyboy

    johnnyboy Guru

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    i saw the fight off my buddie's tivo yesterday. Kelly was just too stiff, and Hopkins was too slick on the counterpunching. Kelly's only hope was to smother and overwhelm hopkins like Calzaghe did. he just never adjusted and Hopkins knew how to pick him apart and win a decision. it's a shame, i was hoping Kelly would make Hopkins bleed.
     
  13. GiovaniMarcon

    GiovaniMarcon Mentor

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    This makes me sad, kind of like how Hatton's loss last year made me sad. Hatton had to fatten up for that fight too.

    Of course in retrospect both the Pavlik and Hatton fights were bad ideas. Some even called it before the fight.

    The media likes to cherry pick results of certain fights to mold the opinion of the masses, and the average dullard on the street will remember Pavlik's loss a lot longer than they will Calzaghe's win over Hopkins.

    It's just the way the media works. Sort of like how Wladimir Klitschko or Vitali would be on the cover of TIME magazine if he were black, but since he's white most people think "huh? who?"
     
  14. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

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    I've already forgotten about this loss. I think about all the positives. Vitali is back and better than ever. Pavlik still has his belts. Abraham is dominating. Calzaghe is still undefeated. We have tons of up and coming heavyweights like Povetkin, Dimitrenko, and Ustinov. We hold 14 belts right now and after this weekend it will be 15. Anyone who is still worried about this loss is crying over spilled milk. Cheer up.
     
  15. darthvader

    darthvader Guru

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    I'd say that anybody training a white boxer against a black boxer should always look at the old tapes during the 80's of those amateur fights between the russian boxers and the black boxers. The russians developed the blueprint to defeating black boxers back then. The russians always had their number and still do. I think here in the states white fighters are not trained properly to fight negroes.&nbs p;
     
  16. pt.guard2

    pt.guard2 Guru

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    Pavlik beat Jermain Taylor twice and I would guess that a lot of his fights in the amateurs and professional ranks have been against black fighters, all of which he won.

    Pavlik's problem was NOT that Hopkins was black, but that he was not equipped to move up in weight and deal with a crafty veteran who knows every trick in the book.

    After watching this fight, I think Pavlik would also have a lot of problems with Joe Calzaghe.

    Pavlik is still young and can certainly learn to adapt to different styles as his career continues to develop.
     
  17. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    The latest news is Pavlik had bronchitis while in training camp. He took medication and cleared it up. But the damage might have been done and that could explain his flat performance. He did look similar to someone who had no 4th gear let alone a 5th. Even when he needed the ko to win.
     
  18. JD074

    JD074 Master

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    Except that he wasn't fighting an opponent who also has to cut to 160. How do you think that would've affected 43 year old Hopkins? Hopkins was stronger, quicker, more explosive, and- most surprisingly- had more energy! Yes, Hopkins' skills had a lot to do with it, but clearly Pavlik was not as physically imposing as he normally is. Pavlik needs a size and strength advantage, and he didn't have the latter against a true light-heavyweight. Unless Hopkins is considerably stronger and quicker than Taylor at 160 (and we know that's not true,) the weight (or bronchitis or reduced training due to bronchitis/ injury or something) had something to do with it. At 160, Hopkins still may have won, but it would've been closer. Hopkins said himself that Pavlik won't lose at 160. I guess he's not including himself.[​IMG]
     
  19. JD074

    JD074 Master

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    And to add insult to injury, Hopkins suggested to Pavlik after the fight that he needs to fight like a black fighter![​IMG] That's embarrassing.

    Oh well. This is just one loss. It ain't over. Pavlik's still my favorite and I hope he bounces back. Take a tune-up against Rubio, take on Abraham, maybe Paul Williams after that.
     
  20. Maple Leaf

    Maple Leaf Mentor

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    JD1974: Yes, Hopkins was stronger, quicker, and had more energy, and, yes, he actually weighed at least ten pounds more than Pavlik. But that is Hopkins and not Pavlik. Hopkins had his own body and fight to manage. What I was saying was Pavlik was the same Pavlik physically he always was only he should have been more energetic.
    I disagree with you, however, with your comment that Pavlik needed to be stronger. He did push Hopkins against the ropes when he wanted to. And, even if he had been stronger, it would not have done him any good as stronger would have dragged him into more of a short range rope fight where Hopkins likes to be. Pavlik lost the fight in the middle of the ring! In the middle of the ring Pavlik should have easily won like Taylor did when Taylor fought those 2 fights against Hopkins. Taylor won those fights with his jab alone -that's it. Pavlik could have done the same. It was not so much a lack of strength but an inability -that night-to deal with Hopkin's tactics. Hopkins did the same thing to Pavlik that he had done to Tarver: he made him very cautious and defensive. Hopkins was clever, Pavlik was dull and repetitious. Maybe it was the bronchitis; maybe it was his trainer; maybe he was just psyched out; I do not know. I do think that the next time he fights he will be back to himself.
     
  21. JD074

    JD074 Master

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    And it would be much easier for this 43 year old fighter to "manage" his weight at 170 than 160. How would Hopkins have fought at 160? No one knows for sure.

    I'm not fully convinced that he was, but even if he were, everything's relative. If Pavlik was the same as he always was, then that means that he was weaker proportional to a bigger, stronger fighter than he's used to fighting. He is not a LHW, period. He and his trainer learned that cruel lesson and they're heading back down to 160, real quick!

    Yeah, it's hard to say, we can agree on that.
     
  22. Seahawker71

    Seahawker71 Newbie

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    Actually he said something to the effect of "you have to learn how to fight
    slick fighters"

    Kelly said he's fought slick fighters before and didn't have problems but
    there's no one that he's fought Professionally that I can see who's "slick".
    Bernard didn't beat Carlos Monzon's record because he was average he
    did it because he was exceptional.I think Pavlik is odds on favorite for
    most middle weights..the only fighter I'd have him avoid is Winky Wright.
     
  23. JD074

    JD074 Master

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    He definitely said something about being slick like a black fighter.
     
  24. Charles Martel

    Charles Martel Hall of Famer

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    He said "you need to fight like a black fighter", here it is:

    Pavlik vs. HopkinsEdited by: JD1986
     
  25. Seahawker71

    Seahawker71 Newbie

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    Yeah actually he did.I don't agree with that.The "Sweet Science" isn't
    owned by any race.Calzaghe is as slick as any fighter boxing today. I don't
    find Jermaine Taylor to be a Sweet Science boxer either.

    It takes time to hone your pugilistic craft.Pavlik will be fine ...great even
    but I think this was a fabulous lesson learned.Hopkins is not Zertuche or
    Miranda.It's always good to fight Hall of Famers if you get the chance.

    Next up. Pavlik vs Abraham please.
     

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