Officiating, etc.

[JD074]

Stockton: he was very aggressive as far as setting
picks and other things. I remember seeing him put
a forearm right in Gary Payton's neck, sending him to
the ground in agony. I don't remember if he was
called for a foul or not, but the refs didn't stop him
from playing his way.

The Olympics was a great show of white basketball
over black basketball (and Hispanic basketball over
black basketball, too, I guess). But what would
happen if the Detroit Pistons or Miami Heat played
one of the best Euroleague teams? Let's assume
that it's international rules with international refs, and
no conspiracies. Would there be a difference in the
outcome if the black team was a real team,
composed of players who have experience playing
with eachother, and that has actual point guards and
shooters? Would a cohesive black team play better
against a white team than a black team that's just a
hodgepodge of flashy players?

Who do you think is better than Duncan?

Not "simply need to be more aggressive". Like I've
said, aggression, one-on-one moves, driving to the
basket, low post play, being good shooters and
passers, high athleticism of the best defenders, low
athleticism of some white players (not all of them,
but quite a few of them- let's be honest,) and
protecting their bodies are all legitimate reasons
why white players don't get to the line.

Let's get real: many white players couldn't hold their
own if they tried the whole one-on-one/
off-the-dribble thing. Does anyone really believe that
Keith Van Horn and Peja Stojakovic, for example,
could consistently beat defenders off the dribble with
speed and agility in the same way that Bryant can?
They do what they do best: shoot the ball. (And, by
the way, that's why they struggle in the post-season.
They can't always create their own shot, so athletic
defenders on good teams contain them.)

I haven't seen a lot of white/ black match-ups in
collegiate basketball games. I did see some of the
Vermont/ UConn game in the first round of the NCAA
Tournament last year. Coppenrath had a tough
game, forcing a lot of shots and missing most of
them. I didn't notice him getting brutalized without
getting calls. What about the UNC blowout against
BYU earlier this year? I couldn't bare to watch this
one, so I can't say for sure what part the refs played.
Was that the fault of the refs? Gonzaga beat Georgia
Tech recently. I didn't see that game either, but
apparently the refs didn't stop them from beating a
much less white team (minus Schensher). Edited by: JD074

 

[jaxvid]

I think you're missing the point here. There is no question that there are many athletic black ball handlers in the NBA and in college. The reason for that is due to the same kind of "slotting" that occurs in football. There is no coach at any major university that is going to recruit a white player to play the role you have mentioned. One of the reasons is that there is no program in America before college turning that kind of white ball player out.

However if you go to Europe or South America you DO see that type of white player because they are not in competition with thousands of local black kids for that kind of position. There is virtually no exclusive white basketball program in the US. You can go to upscale gyms, rural gyms, you can go to Canada you can go to Alaska and there are plenty of black kids playing ball with the whites, and playing the kind of "street" ball that gets them slotted into the type of player going one-on-one. Those few all-white programs usually have a coach teaching total team play and discouraging the one-on-one play.

That is why there are so many good European players. No unfair advantages given to black kids while growing up, robbing them of the chance to be that kind of player. They are not yet on a par with the US but will be some day soon.

 

[Kaptain]

Point 1, First off in the olympics, Manu (sp) ginobli and his team did not practice together for years. Did you forget that he played in the NBA season also and he was the outstanding player in the olympics. So, the "team time" excuse is dead. Small countries where basketball is notvery popular beat us soundly. Doesn't that give a clue.


Point B, Stockton: An aggressive pick? Get real. Are you one of those that believe that Stockton was the dirtiest player in the NBA? What is "playing his way"? explain. Why do you think he was so hated by his black peers? I'll guarantee he recieved more elbows than he gave.


Point 3, I mention ginobli and Nash and you bring up Kieth Van Horn and Peja? Now can I bring up Reggie Miller and Wesley Person not being good at one on one?


Point D, Tim Duncan was one of the best about 3 years ago. The best is always arguable. For the record he is one of the few admirable blacks in the NBA. And he got there more by skill than athleticism as he isn't all that athletic. But, what happened to him in the olympics? What happened to the whole team? Were they confused? Maybe they just weren't as good.

 

[Mr. Lutefisk]

Kaptain Poop for President! Most of JD074's statements (on this subject) are comical to me.

 

[JD074]

***I think you're missing the point here. There is
no question that there are many athletic black ball
handlers in the NBA and in college. The reason for
that is due to the same kind of "slotting" that occurs
in football.

But you say that they're athletic. That plays no part in
it? What do you think would've happened to Kobe
Bryant if he were white? Would he have went to a
Div. II school and never amounted to anything?

***There is no coach at any major university that is
going to recruit a white player to play the role you
have mentioned.

That's something I referred to in the college players
thread. I made the tongue-in-cheek statement about
how all the 6-6 athletic white guys must be playing
volleyball. Luke Jackson is the closest thing to an
athletic white shooting guard in college that I can
think of in recent years, and even he was more of a
shooter/ passer. Bekkering is the closest physical
match (6-6, muscular, 39" vertical) and he's playing
for a small school. Maybe someday an athletic 6-6
white guy will make the roster for a big program as a
3-point shooter and will develop into a 1-on-1 guy
before the coach can stop it.

***One of the reasons is that there is no program in
America before college turning that kind of white ball
player out.

Is it possible that there aren't any white Bryants or
Carters out there right now playing basketball? Is it
a coincidence that none of the best white perimeter
scorers in NBA history (Barry, Maravich, Bird, West,
etc.), regardless of how far you go back, were
ultra-athletic? They were great competitors, very
skilled, and played the game with great passion, but
they didn't have the athleticism of Jordan, Wilkins,
Erving, etc.

***However if you go to Europe or South America you
DO see that type of white player because they are not
in competition with thousands of local black kids for
that kind of position.

What "type"? Like Bryant and Carter? Or like Nash
an Ginobili? And have you seen a Euroleague game
recently? Quite a few black players.
   
***Small countries where basketball is not very
popular beat us soundly. Doesn't that give a clue.

It tells us that basketball is a team game, and
requires skill, teamwork, and coaching. Just
because Lithuania and Italy and other teams beat
the US team doesn't mean that they have players
that can play the 1-on-1 game.   

***Point 3, I mention ginobli and Nash and you bring
up Kieth Van Horn and Peja?

Why not? They are two of the best white scorers in
the world and you seem offended by it. Furthermore,
they're pretty decent representatives of the style of
play and level of athleticism of a lot of white players.
How would they do in a 1-on-1 game against Bryant?

***Now can I bring up Reggie Miller and Wesley
Person not being good at one on one?

Sure, if you want. Are they better examples of a
typical black scorer than Peja and Van Horn of a
typical white scorer?

***Point D, Tim Duncan was one of the best about 3
years ago. The best is always arguable.

So who would you "argue" is the best? Garnett?

***But, what happened to him in the olympics? What
happened to the whole team? Were they confused?

They stunk. So which white big men are better
one-on-one scorers than Duncan?

***Maybe they just weren't as good.

Okay. So which Lithuanian player could beat Lebron
James or Dwyane Wade in a 1-on-1 game?      
 
And BTW, John Stockton is one of my favorite players
ever. Edited by: JD074

 

[white lightning]

I can give you a few exmaples of white basketball players that never got a chance that were as athletic
as Kobe. Marko Milic dunked over a car when he was only
16 to win the car.I showed you guys the video a while
back.He came to the NBA straight out of high school in
Europe.What happened?The Philidelphia 76ers drafted him
only to never play him.The Suns traded a over the hill Tom Chambers straight up for Milic. Milic only played in
blowouts for the Suns but took people off the dribble
many times and did dunks that Jordan would envy.He was
also even more muscular than Lebron James!The Suns cut
him and he has played in Europe & Spain ever since.Why
didn't he get time to develop like the US black players
who come straight out of h.s. and don't light it up
right away.Look at the kid from the Wizards,Kwame Brown.
Tom Chambers by the way in his day could dunk on anyone
and created his own shot.He was 2nd in the NBA in scoring
one year & was in the Dunk Contest.Rex Chapman could take
people off the dribble & create his own shot.So could
Petrovic.There are many players that can but they are
not allowed the freedom of most black players.Just at
ASU 2 years ago,they had a white point guard who was
6 feet tall with a 42 inch verticle.His name was Kyle
Dodd.He could do a 360 slam dunk at 6 feet tall.He never
even got drafted.There are many great black athletes but
more of them get a chance than the great white athletes!
Why is Bekkering playing where he is?How many other Henry
Bekkerings could there be that still don't get college
scholarships to a major school let alone get drafted in
the NBA. There are more than you would think!

 

[Kaptain]

There's no doubt the caste system from high school to college to the NBA limits the talent pool. But, I would argue that officiating also supports the caste system at all levels. I don't see athletic white players getting the same treatment as athletic blacks on the court. Until that problem is solved the NBA will never have a real white superstar again that rivals Kobe and Shaq no matter who they allow to play in the league. The major difference in the Olympics was more balanced officiating. The first thing I heard from the "blow-hards" was how bad the officiating was in the olympics - a convienent excuse. They need to focus on NBA officiating and officiating in the PC world of the USA. By the way, another white player got punched by a black player in the NBA last night.

 

[JD074]

So white American players are disadvantaged in
terms of recruiting/ scholarships/ NBA Draft, etc. I've
never argued against that. That's what this site is all
about. So maybe that's yet another reason why we
don't have great white 1-on-1 scorers in the NBA,
regardless of officiating?

But let's get to the real point here: Is there any white
player on the planet that could beat Kobe in a game
of 1-on-1? Ultimately that's what we're talking about
here: the ability of one player to beat another player.

WL, like I said, Bekkering is the closest physical
match in college that I've seen, but we don't know
how good he's going to be in terms of his ability to
score 1-on-1. I saw the game against Gonzaga and
he looks very raw. I saw hints of his athleticism
when he drove to the basket and attempted a few
shots, including an alley oop attempt (all misses,
unfortunately). There's no rush, as he's a redshirt
freshman, but he appears to have a long way to go. I
doubt if the competition he faced in Canada was that
great either, so we'll see how he develops. Hopefully
he'll become great.

It was mentioned on the old discussion board that
white players sometimes need more time to mature
physically (Jeremy Wariner notwithstanding), and
how that may have an effect on recruiting,
scholarships, and being drafted at 18. I can't say
whether that's true or not, but I have read that blacks
tend to hit puberty sooner, so maybe that plays a part
in earlier hormonal and muscular changes. It's
something to consider anyway.

It is true that the black players get a lot of time to
develop, but Darko, Robert Swift, and Biedrins were
lottery picks at 18, and clearly aren't ready yet, so
maybe that's changing slightly. Dirk wasn't very good
in his first season and his coaches stuck with him.

Did anybody catch the Warriors/ Grizzlies game last
night? Troy Murphy repeatedly drove to the basket
and got the call over and over. Pau Gasol drew four
or five fouls from Cliff Robinson.

 

[Kaptain]

You can bring up who elbowed who in whatever game. The bottom line is that the leaders in in free throw attempts are by far always black and it isn't even close. Let's stop the Kobe worshipping until he starts shooting better than 40%. As for no whites not being as athletic him, my response is the same - we don't know that because most are not allowed to play and when they are they have to overcome officiating. You say that the white lottery picks clearly aren't ready yet. They won't get ready sitting on the bench -eventually they willjustsay that they never developedwithout ever becoming a starter.The game of basketball isuniquein thatthe outcome the game is greatly effectedby the officiating and their judgement calls.Watch a game and replay the calls in slow-motion. You'll find that many calls are flat out wrong. Are we to believe that officials aresomehow immune to the caste system that controls coaches, scouts, announcers, and thegeneral public? Obviously then troy murphy is one of the league leaders in free throws? Or is he just so dumb that he doesn't realize that he could do this every night?

 

[JD074]

Let's stop the Kobe worshipping until he starts shooting
better than 40%.

I'm not worshipping him. He's an example of a black player
with a high degree of athleticism regardless of his shooting
ability. Indeed, bad shooting is a good reason to try and draw
fouls in order to shoot a much easier shot at the free throw line.

Look at Kobe's shooting numbers last year: .438 FGP .852
FTP and an abysmal .327 3PP. And I figure that he shot
somewhere around 46.3% from 2-point range. Makes sense.
He can't hit threes, so he drives to the basket, shoots
mid-range jump shots, and tries to draw fouls.

BTW, Ginobili's numbers: .418 FGP .802 FTP and .359 3PP.
And I figure that he shot somewhere around 44.4% from
two-point range. Also, about 31% of the field goals he
attempted were 3-point attempts, whereas only 18.4% of
Bryant's field goal attempts were 3-point attempts. So we can
see that Ginobili took a much larger percentage of his shots
behind the arch (where he will rarely get fouled) than Bryant.

As for no whites not being as athletic him, my response is the
same - we don't know that because most are not allowed to
play and when they are they have to overcome officiating.

I agree that we don't know for sure if any white player could
beat him in a game of 1-on-1 or not. We just don't know.
Ginobili is the best candidate that I can think of, and I
personally don't think he could take Bryant 1-on-1. I love
Ginobili but I have to be honest.

You say that the white lottery picks clearly aren't ready yet.
They won't get ready sitting on the bench - eventually they
will just say that they never developed without ever becoming a
starter. 

That's a possibility, but it's more of a possibility for a second or
third round player. Darko is getting paid over three million
dollars a year. Why would they not try to develop him, and
therefore waste all that money? Wouldn't the owner try to
ensure that he gets a return on his enormous investment? I
bet the other aforementioned lottery picks are getting paid very
handsomely as well.

It's also true that they could get playing time and still never
develop, a la Michael Olowakandi! This guy gets ripped more
than just about any other player- except for Shawn Bradley, of
course, the most hated man in the NBA.Swift and Biedrins
look physically immature, and didn't face decent competition in
high school and Latvia respectively. I'm not sure about Darko;
he's gotten stronger and played against better competition
before coming to the NBA than the other two. I'm suspicious of
Larry Brown, but I still can't say with any certainty that he's
ruining him. He may be another year or two away from being a
solid NBA player.

Watch a game and replay the calls in slow-motion. You'll find
that many calls are flat out wrong.

Yes, much to the dismay of both black and white players.

Are we to believe that officials are somehow immune to the
caste system that controls coaches, scouts, announcers, and
the general public?

I wouldn't say immune, but I don't think they're the problem
either. At most, they're a very minor part of the problem, if that.
The rules that are constantly changing, seemingly to benefit
scorers, are a bigger problem. But the refs don't make the
rules.

Obviously then troy murphy is one of the league leaders in
free throws?

I wasn't implying that. But his intent was to get to the line and
he did so and got the calls from the refs.

Or is he just so dumb that he doesn't realize that he could do
this every night?

Why take that beating every night?

 

[Kaptain]

Current stats have Kobe at 39% FG and 31% three point. Manu is at 47% and 41%. Manu like many white potential superstars still doesn't recieve the playing time blacks of his skill would - he is currently only averaging only 29 minutes a game. Manu could play one on one with kobe and Manu can do it while seeing the whole court - kobe can't.


Referees interpretation of the rules are more important than the rules itself. Look at traveling. It's still in the books. Enforcement of the rules is a major problem. Looks like we have the chicken or the egg arguement. Either way its bad for white players.

 

[white lightning]

I would put Mike Miller as a possible good matchup for Kobe.He doesn't get the minutes either which is a shame
because he's very athletic and can shoot the basketball
with above average accuracy. I have seen him do double
pump dunks,360's and reverse dunks with ease.He can take
you off the dribble and shoot the three. I would like to
see them play one on one.

 

[horsehockles]

FACT: The refs have fallen victim to the caste system and it has become more obvious as each year goes buy. No one is immune to it, its just a fact that we all have to accept. In fact refs are more prone to become caste victims because of their jobs. They work to close with black "superstars" not to be influenced by the media.


When "we" as a society stop glorifying black athletes so will the refs.

 

[JD074]

Wow, Bryant's numbers are awful. I hadn't looked at
their numbers for this season. I would prefer to wait
until the end of the season to compare, because
those numbers could go down for Ginobili and up for
Bryant. Or not.

Going back to how many of the shots taken are
three-point attempts. Over the course of their
careers:

Bryant: 15.5%
Tracy McGrady: 18.2
Michael Jordan: 7.2 (woah!)

Look at Jordan's numbers: 49.7% from the field, 83.5
from the line, and 32.7 from the arch.

Ginobili: 33
Dirk: 26.5
Nash: 30.6
Mike Miller: 37.8
Rex Chapman: 26.6
Petrovic: 17.3
Stojakovic: 35.6
Van Horn: 19.7

Petrovic's number surprised me. And his shooting
percentages were great (except for his second year,
when he only played 18 games.) Van Horn was
lower than I would've expected, too.

These numbers don't prove anything per se. But
shooting more 2-pointers and less 3-pointers has to
help a player get to the line, at least somewhat. Style
of play has to make a difference, too. But it does
show that these white players take a lot of their shots
from behind the arch, where they're less likely to get
fouled.

Now if you compare their FTA and FGA (I divided their
FTA by their FGA):

Jordan: 35.7%
Bryant: 39
McGrady: 35.6

Dirk: 37
Nash: 26.7
Ginobili: 39.5
Miller: 20.3
Chapman: 21.6
Petrovic: 28
Tom Chambers: 39.8
Stojakovic:26.6
Van Horn: 27.8

Chambers, Dirk, and Ginobil's numbers are about
the same as the black guys'.

Over his career, Bryant has averaged 1188 FGA per
year and 463 FTA per year. Ginobili has averaged
593 FGA per year, and 234 FTA per year. Twice as
many field goal attempts, twice as many free throw
attempts! That's interesting. And very surprising
given that a third of the shots that Ginobili attempted
in his first two seasons were 3's. Only 15% of
Kobe's shots prior to this season have been 3's.
How did Ginobili get to the line that much?!

So isn't Bryant's free throw attempts pretty much
consistent with his field goal attempts, at least when
compared to Ginobili?

 

[Kaptain]

FTA/FGA - An interesting comparsion. Ginobli and most of the other white players mentioned take far fewer shots than byrant, jordan, and McCradyso the numbers are skewed a bit. For example, think of a player that rarely shots the ball but makes it to the line a couple of times through the course of a game. The percents would skew. Simple Darwinism behavior would say that white players will be more aggressive when they are consistentlly rewarded for doing so. I don't think whites are less athletic by nature in basketball anymore than I think they are less athletic in football at WR and RB positions.

 

[horsehockles]

I dont care what those beurocrats in washington say... Kaptain Poop for president.

 

[Don Wassall]

Poor LeBron:

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/10498576.htm?1c

James not officially a star

NBA's referees have yet to give him that status on court -- and benefits that come along with it

By Brian Windhorst

When the whistle sounded, LeBron James thought that he had a chance for a three-point play, but the roar from the 16,000 people at Continental Airlines Arena told him otherwise.

James' mouth was open in protest, New Jersey Nets part-owner and rapper Jay-Z's mouth was open before folding into a smile from his courtside seat, and the collective media had its jaws dropped when official Marc Davis had the minerals to hit James with a second traveling call in less than a minute in the stretch run of a close game.

But after watching 26 games this season, perhaps it shouldn't have been shocking. While James has arrived in the minds of many, especially his peers and the NBA's coaches, he hasn't achieved such status yet with the league's officials.

That's not saying James has never gotten a star call. It's not a claim that James should've gotten away with the travels, which, indeed, they were. The purists should applaud Davis; he was right and wasn't afraid to say so.

NBA stars, though, have long enjoyed a certain standard from officials. Example No. 1 being Michael Jordan pushing off on Bryon Russell of the Utah Jazz before making the jumper that won the Chicago Bulls the 1998 NBA Finals.

Let's not pretend. Top players tend to get special treatment from officials; the Cavaliers have been on the wrong end of it for years. It is part of the league's equilibrium.

For the most part, though, James hasn't enjoyed such luxury.

Though his scoring, shooting, and minutes are up significantly, James is only averaging less than one more free throw per game than in his rookie season. Though he's third in the NBA in shots attempted, he's 15th in free throws attempted.

Please attempt to shoot holes in these numbers.

Believe he doesn't go to the basket enough to get more fouls?

According to NBA statistical guru Roland Beech, and he'd surely know, 34 percent of James' shots so far this season have come ``inside.'' Which basically means one out of three shots are not jump shots. No, not all of them are dunks, either. Only 9 percent of James' shots are dunks.

That percentage might not seem high, but consider Kobe Bryant takes about 28 percent of his shots from inside and has 100 more free-throw attempts than James this season. New Jersey Nets small forward Richard Jefferson takes about 30 percent of his shots from inside, and he's got 70 more free-throw attempts than James. It is very hard to explain such a massive discrepancy.

Certainly there is a technique to drawing fouls, one that James is working on. The way he has been able to consistently hit his jumper -- he shoots 10 percentage points higher than Bryant and four higher than Jefferson -- he has forced opponents to respect it and can often get them off their feet on pump fakes, which usually results in easy fouls.

The numbers simply don't lie. Either James isn't touched as much as comparable players in the league or he isn't awarded fouls as often.

It hasn't taken a statistical analysis to get James to notice. He has been appealing his case all season, redoubling his complaints to referees during games. He has been hit with several technical fouls for it already and has had to be told more than once by Cavaliers coach Paul Silas to back off on his complaining.

One of the things many fans dislike about the NBA is the number of fouls called, because it slows the game down. Nobody really likes to see a player complaining with officials all the time, either.

When he looks around, though, James thinks that he might have a point.

 

[JD074]

For example, think of a player that rarely shots the ball but
makes it to the line a couple of times through the course of a
game. The percents would skew.

That's a good point. It wouldn't be relevant in every instance.
For example, I checked out some big men, and their FTA to
FGA ratio tend to be high, so you can't necessarily compare
big guys to perimeter players. Ginobili wasn't a big scorer in
his first two seasons (10.4 ppg), so that ratio could go down for
him over the years. But Dirk's career ppg average is only 1.4
points less than Bryant (20.4 ppg and 21.8 respectively), and
they're both perimeter players, and their ratios are comparable.
Also, as of last night, Dirk was fourth in FGA and fourth in FTA
this season. That could change over the course of the season;
he may not need to be as aggressive now that Finley is back.
But so far so good.

Another reason why whites may take fewer free throws is that
they take smarter shots. While white guys are taking wide
open 3's, Kobe is taking a lot of difficult shots, off-balanced, off
one foot, fading to the right, fading to the left, flipping the ball
over his head, taking a wild shot just to draw contact but not
getting the call, etc etc etc. He'll draw more fouls because the
defender is all over him, as opposed to a wide open shot which
is, by definition, taken further away from the defender. But it's
less effective basketball, and he's a less effective player, than
he would be if a higher proportion of his shots were open looks.
Even if he gets to the line a lot.

I don't think whites are less athletic by nature in basketball
anymore than I think they are less athletic in football at WR and
RB positions.

That's the big question. Are whites, in general, as athletic as
the blacks who dominate these sports? I don't think any of us
can say with full certainty how white athletes in general stack
up with blacks as far as running/ jumping/ agility goes. It would
be great to see a large scale test done with thousands upon
thousands of athletes, where they're graded on speed, agility,
and jumping drills, and compared according to position or
event. That would be incomplete because the blacks at certain
positions and in certain events (like running back and 100
meter dash) are better trained. And there are so few whites in
certain areas and that would have to affect the results as well.
And every participant would have to be drug-tested. Dozens of
blacks have broken the "10 second barrier" in the 100 meters.
How many of them took performance-enhancing drugs? 5%,
10%, 50%, 100%? Who knows. And could a white 100 meter
sprinter get over the hump and get a sub-10 if he received the
best possible coaching and training (rather than being
relegated to small programs, or quitting the sport altogether)?
Who knows.

Maybe there really are white Kobe Bryants and Vince Carters
out there; I have to ask if there are any because we need to be
honest about this. We should feel free to point out the
deficiencies of white players, while still celebrating the
wonderful things that they do. And maybe a white Kobe Bryant
really would get buried in a small school. But basketball can't
be bad as football. A white Priest Holmes or Randy Moss
would be lucky to be a walk-on at a marginal program, let alone
being a star for a major program like Oklahoma or Miami.

Bekkering is Canadian, and I don't know what kind of
competition he faced in Canada. It could've been pretty weak.
And he's pretty raw at the moment. It would have been
interesting to see what would've happened to him if he went to
a competitive American high school, and had some polished
skills on top of his athleticism. He wouldn't have gone to North
Carolina, that's for sure. But what about Duke or Gonzaga?
Maybe. And basketball is less specialized. There are only five
positions, and they are relatively flexible. If you're a 6-5 white 2
guard, you could potentially play 1 or 3. But if you're a white
5-10 running back, you may not be able to play another
position. It's not a good situation, but it can't be as bad as
football.

Do we have any examples of white American basketball
players who have been tucked away in small programs, and/or
ignored by NBA teams? It'd be an interesting thing to
research. We have many examples in football, thanks to this
wonderful site. Many white RB's and WR's who perform
exceptionally well at competitive schools are passed over; and
those who beat the odds and perform well for a halfway decent
program get passed over in the NFL. Does anybody think that
it's as bad in basketball? Edited by: JD074