Offensive lineman stats

Discussion in 'NFL' started by highschoolcoach, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. highschoolcoach

    highschoolcoach Guru

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    Found this site and it's very interesting.

    sports.cbs2chicago.com/fb/findplayer.asp?type=position&position=95

    Just for the heck of it looked up the stats for Pro Bowler Jammal Brown and non-Pro bowler Jon Stinchcomb of the NO Saints.

    The column headings are: Year, Team, Games, Games Started, Penalties, Penalty yards, False Starts, Holding, Sacks Allowed

    Jammal Brown:

    Career Offensive Line Stats

    2005 NO 13 13 8 48 6 2 3.50
    2006 NO 15 15 6 45 2 3 3.00
    2007 NO 15 15 9 60 4 3 2.00
    2008 NO 15 15 9 80 2 7 4.00
    Totals 58 5832233141512.50

    Jon Stinchcomb:

    Career Offensive Line Stats

    2003 NO 6 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
    2004 NO 4 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
    2006 NO 16 16 3 15 3 0 4.00
    2007 NO 16 16 4 20 4 0 5.00
    2008 NO 16 16 3 15 3 0 1.50
    2009 NO 6 6 3 20 2 0 2.00
    Totals 6454137012012.50

    Two things really jump out at me here:

    (1)Stinchcomb has never been called for holding and (2)Jammal Brown was a Pro Bowler in 2008 and Stinchcomb was not. In 2008 Brown had 7 holding calls and allowed 4 sacks; Stinchcomb had 0 holding calls and allowed 1.50 sacks. It sure seems to me that Stinchcomb did a much better job than Brown in 2008, yet Brown was a Pro Bowler and Stinchcomb was not. What's the deal?

    These stats allow an ambitious poster to do lots of comparisons.
     
  2. Fightingtowin

    Fightingtowin Guru

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    Good find! I've always been curious about numbers like this, but never took the time to look them up.
     
  3. Colonel_Reb

    Colonel_Reb Hall of Famer

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    Nice work, highschoolcoach!
     
  4. highschoolcoach

    highschoolcoach Guru

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    I think that in order to get the headings and numbers to line up you will have to create table on the Message page and then paste the information into the table. Hopefully, that will work.
     
  5. Quiet Speed

    Quiet Speed Mentor

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    That's pretty interesting . Sixty-four games without a holding penalty. I wonder what the record is for consecutive games without a holding penalty for a tackle.

    A while back I came across the
    Code:
    
    
    tags in the BBcodes section. I played around with it a bit and found it can be used for tables. So, here goes an attempt:

    Jamal Brown
    Code:
    <table ="shsTable shsGriddedTable" cellspacing="1"><t><tr ="shsTableTtlRow"><td colspan="10">Career Offensive Line Stats</td>
    </tr><tr ="shsColTtlRow"><td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNamD">Year</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNamD">Team</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">G</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">GS</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Pen</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Yds</td>
    <td style="width: 10%;" ="shsNumD">False Start</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Holding</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Sacks Allwd</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Yds</td>
    </tr><tr ="shsRow0Row"><td ="shsNamD">2005</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">13</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">13</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">8</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">48</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">6</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">2</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3.50</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow1Row"><td ="shsNamD">2006</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">6</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">45</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">2</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">25.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow0Row"><td ="shsNamD">2007</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">9</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">60</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">4</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">2.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">5.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow1Row"><td ="shsNamD">2008</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">9</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">80</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">2</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">7</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">4.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsColTtlRow"><td colspan="2" ="shsNamD">Totals</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">58</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">58</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">32</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">233</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">14</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">12.50</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">62.00</td></tr></t></table>
    John Stinchcomb
    Code:
    <table ="shsTable shsGriddedTable" cellspacing="1"><t><tr ="shsTableTtlRow"><td colspan="10">Career Offensive Line Stats</td>
    </tr><tr ="shsColTtlRow"><td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNamD">Year</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNamD">Team</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">G</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">GS</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Pen</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Yds</td>
    <td style="width: 10%;" ="shsNumD">False Start</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Holding</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Sacks Allwd</td>
    <td style="width: 9%;" ="shsNumD">Yds</td>
    </tr><tr ="shsRow0Row"><td ="shsNamD">2003</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">6</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow1Row"><td ="shsNamD">2004</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">4</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow0Row"><td ="shsNamD">2006</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">4.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">17.50</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow1Row"><td ="shsNamD">2007</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">4</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">20</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">4</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">5.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">39.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow0Row"><td ="shsNamD">2008</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">15</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">1.50</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">16.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsRow1Row"><td ="shsNamD">2009</td>
    <td ="shsNamD"></span></span>NO</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">6</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">6</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">3</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">20</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">2</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">2.00</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">10.00</td>
    </tr>
    <tr ="shsColTtlRow"><td colspan="2" ="shsNamD">Totals</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">64</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">54</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">13</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">70</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">12</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">0</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">12.50</td>
    <td ="shsNumD">82.50</td></tr></t></table>
     
  6. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    I've never understood why in a sports crazy society where every conceivable statistic in the major sports, many relative and many not, is readily available and discussed, that the quantitative performance of offensive linemen is always pretty much an esoteric mystery. One could argue that it makes it easier for the caste media to portray false-starting, immobile blubber balls as athletic supermen but it has always been this way for linemen.
     
  7. jcolec02

    jcolec02 Mentor

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    I dont think Michael Roos, Left Tackle that plays for the Titans allowed a sack all year in 2008
     
  8. icsept

    icsept Master

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    Great find. I love stats, even though they can be manipulated. How about this comparison of Flozell Adams v. Jake Long for the 2008 season:

    GGSPen Yds falseStart Holding SacksYds
    Flozell:16161385937.2555.5
    Jake Long: 161654022 2.515.5

    As a Cowboys watcher, I knew Flozell sucked and was always getting penalties and giving up sacks. These stats need to be displayed during the games! This guy was selected to the Pro Bowl for 2008! Jake Long made the Pro Bowl as an alternate. Flozell just got a new 6 year $42 million contract extension. Jerry Jones is a freaking idiot.


    Edited by: icsept
     
  9. highschoolcoach

    highschoolcoach Guru

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    icsept,

    By coincidence I too looked up the stats for Flozell Adams, but compared him to Michael Roos. Why was Flozell Adams a starting tackle for the 2008 Pro Bowl? As you say, stats may not tell the whole story, but they are usually better than subjective opinion. Thus far, the stats lead me to believe that the NFL is not the meritocracy that the DWFs seemingly believe it to be. There's a lot of BS going on.
     
  10. highschoolcoach

    highschoolcoach Guru

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    2008 season, 16 games: Flozell Adams, LT, Dallas vs. Michael Roos, LT, Tennessee

    AdamsRoos
    False starts 94
    Holding calls30
    Penalty yards8520.00
    Sacks allowed7.25 1.00
    Yards lost 55.50 24.00

    The evidence shows that Flozell Adams is a better left tackle than Michael Roos---if more false starts, holds, penalty yards, sacks allowed and total yards lost are what makes one a better offensive tackle. That's why he was a Pro Bowl starter and Roos was not even selected.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The white guys have poor agents, the black guys have a cadre of apologists and sniffers in the media who back it all up.
     
  12. rajuncajun

    rajuncajun Newbie

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    This is something that I also have searched for in the past as well, a quanatative statistical database for the OL. Week after week it is laughable to watch the number of sumo's who jump offside every game, give up sacks or make dumb mental penalties.
     
  13. Fightingtowin

    Fightingtowin Guru

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    In college they always blamed his many false starts on being deaf in one ear. Don't know if that is true or he's just dumb or not focused. That doesn't explain the holding and sacks though.
     
  14. highschoolcoach

    highschoolcoach Guru

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    Intrigued by the choice of 3 Dallas Cowboy offensive linemen as starters in the 2008 Pro Bowl, looked up the stats for Pro Bowl guard Leonard Davis and compared him to the much-maligned "bust" Robert Gallery of the Oakland Raiders.

    Leonard Davis had 2 false starts and 3 holds for 55 penalty yards and gave up 4.5 sacks for 23.5 yards in losses.

    Robert Gallery had 3 false starts and 0 holds for 15 penalty yards and gave up 1.75 sacks for 8 yards lost.

    Once again, it seems that the non-Pro Bowler had a better season than the Pro Bowler. Is it that Gallery will never atone for his horrible 2006 season when he give up 10.5 sacks for 67.5 yards lost? But, apparently, Davis's 2006 season of 9 false starts, 2 holds, and 8 sacks for 57 yards lost is "water under the bridge".

    I love these stats because I once believed that a Pro Bowl selection was purely on merit, but now have great doubts.
     
  15. Charlie

    Charlie Guru

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    Teams grade OL on the basis of completed assignments for each play. An OL can literally not touch an opposing player yet still complete his assignment. An example of this would be pass protection where the OL maintains his position as part of a pocket formation.

    Teams treat player grades as confidential. This means the three groups which select Pro Bowl players have no idea what is going on. Opposing coaches, fans and writers really don't know. The don't know what the assignments are so they don't know if they were completed.

    The knowable facts are suspect. If an OL 'gives up' a sack to Jared Allen we don't know if it was really the OL's fault. On that particular play he may have been assigned help from the FB or another OL to help block but the help wasn't there. Or the QB hesitated too long before making a decision.

    Or maybe every OL has a bad game against Jared Allen. Those OL who don't play against him look better as a result. Bill James did work on baseball stats taking into account the quality of opposing players and Babe Ruth turns out to the best ever on that basis. Stat work like that was innovative for baseball and came about after 100 years. So maybe football will at one point be subject to the same examination.

    Another issue is the degree to which an offensive line (including the TE) plays as an effective unit, a team within a team. One idea may be to select Pro Bowl OL as a five or six man group from a single team.
     
  16. highschoolcoach

    highschoolcoach Guru

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    Thanks for the informative post. Having been involved in team sports I know that a number of factors determine performance, but stats do tell some of the story. Is it safe to say that bad players do not have great stats and great players don't have bad stats?

    So, considering that you probably do not have all the necessary information, did Flozell Adams and Leonard Davis really deserve to be Pro Bowl starters? The available evidence does not seem to indicate that they did.
     
  17. DixieDestroyer

    DixieDestroyer Hall of Famer

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    Overrated twin sumos "YOzell" Adams & "Lenturd" Davis have no business in the Pro Bowl...it's a caste push.[​IMG]
     

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