For argument's sake - White NFL Players with 4.3 Speed

Discussion in 'NFL' started by The Sapient, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. The Sapient

    The Sapient Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Miami
    I recently educated a couple of my co-workers about Christophe Lemaitre. Then we started discussing 4.3 speed in the NFL. Then in a sarcastic tone, a DWF asked me, "How many white players in the NFL can you name with 4.3 speed?"

    I had a quick recollection of a few names, so I responded with the following:
    1. Matt Jones
    2. Danny Woodhead (current)
    3. Jeremy Bloom
    4. Jake Locker (4.39 timed in college/ current)
    5. Done Beebe
    6. Jason Sehorn
    7. Chris Hogan (current)
    8. Colin Jones (current)
    9. Travis Jervey
    10. Tim Dwight

    The DWF was in disbelief. He was shocked that I can name 10 white NFL players with 4.3 speed off the top of my head.

    I also mentioned that there could be more white guys in the NFL running 4.3s & 4.4s, if the opportunities were given at the h.s/d-1 levels.

    Then I turned the question around and asked him, "Off hand, how many black NFL players can you name with 4.3 speed?"

    The DWF started mentioning guys like Deion Sanders and Bo-Jackson, but then he threw in the name Ed Reed.

    I started chuckling and I asked him in a "Jim Mora" high-pitched, incredulous tone: "Ed Reed?!.......Reed?!........Don't talk about Reed?!.....You Kidding me?!......Reed?! You just hope that he's
    faster than Tommy Z."

    Obviously, the dwf did not know who Tommy Z was.

    The discussion was over. I couldn't believe the DWF could not mention players like Bob Hayes, Darrell Green, Gault, or recent players like Randy Moss, Hester, Bush, Ginn, Heyward, etc.

    But anyways, just for argument's sake. I would like to add more players to this list because these are the 10 white players I always seem to remember.

    Any help here will be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. dwid

    dwid Master

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Messages:
    3,958
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Kevin Curtis
    Chris Prosinski
    John Wendling


    and plenty of 4.4 guys, and our athletes tend to be more well rounded, performing well in every drill.

    15 athletes have run sub 4.4 in the past 3 years at the NFL Combine, only 3 of those players are above average at their position.
     
  3. seattlefan

    seattlefan Guru

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    Messages:
    288
    I looked up Ed Reed but all I find is a 4.57 number. One thing that really limits white 40s under 4.4 is that the speed positions, RB/DB/WR are mostly only for black players. Can't expect many speeds in those ranges when most white players are QB/OL/LB/TE/FB. In athletic positions(TE for example) where there is a fairly equal proportion of white/black players, white players hold their own or better. Funny thing about the combine is that if you really look, you find lots of tremendous performances by white players and a lot of mediocre ones by black players. I remember AJ Hawk a couple years ago put up crazy numbers.
     
  4. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    12,610
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Curtis supposedly ran a 4.21 hand time 40. It's probably not legit but the 4.3 time definitely is. Also Bill Schroeder probably ran a 4.3 time. He was the fastest player on the Packers when he played.
     
  5. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,032
    The Sapient, dwid, seattlefan, awesome thread and posts. I've been attending high school combines for three years now and you're right where whites compete; they tend to be overall better performers, especially in the strength part. (Bench Press)

    I thought blacks also had side to side speed, but many times when you compare their 40 time to their 20 yd. shuttle, their 20yd. shuttle is higher than the 40 time or the times are relatively close. Your 20yd. shuttle should always be way under your 40 time.

    Former Appalachian State and current Tampa Bay Buccaneer Safety, Corey Lynch , got drafted because of his record 20yd. shuttle time, I believe it was in the 3.90 range.

    Even when the few whites that compete at the RB and WR positions, they do very well. I remember a white kid, Braxton Berrios, won the Southeast Regional Freshman Combine MVP (RB/ATH) in Atlanta last year, a phenomenal all-round athlete! He had a very good sophomore season in high school also. I hope he goes on to play D-1 football.

    A good thread.
     
  6. white defensive back

    white defensive back Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    479
    I brought this up once before in the high school football forum. Its amazing how many zero star safeties and rbs who are white have much quicker 20 yard shuttle times than the 4 star black cbs. In my opinion on modest research most prospective white athletes are actually quicker than most of their black counterparts.
     
  7. white defensive back

    white defensive back Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Messages:
    479
    Dan Depalma ( current ), RJ Kors, Don Boyd Odegard, Brian Rowley, Scott Lockwood, Gary Wellman, Brad Lamb ( now in Federal Prison ), 1992-1993 Buffalo Bills, .......
     
  8. waterbed

    waterbed Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    871
    Location:
    Outside North America

    speed says alot before selection process but not after.
    In the nfl you can assume that the not fast players have other qualitys.
    only the abosulte top players would all have average or above average nfl speed and have it all( are in all qualitys pretty good)
     
  9. Jimmy Chitwood

    Jimmy Chitwood Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    7,372
    Location:
    Arkansas
    i somehow missed this thread ... it's a good idea to provide documentation, Sapient.

    the problem, though, is a LOT of White speedsters never get a legitimate shot in the NFL. for example, look at how Matt Jones, Don Beebe, Travis Jervey (a fullback?!?!?) were treated. all had game-breaking speed, yet none were considered "legitimate" talents ... just because they didn't have a lot of melanin.

    instead of posting a list of guys in the NFL, i thought i'd post some speed guys who were screwed over by the NFL and never got a legitimate shot at making a team. also, since i follow them a bit more closely, i'll focus on the wide receiver position. additionally, i will only post players with CONFIRMED times of 4.3x or faster from a Combine, Pro Day, or NFL scouts. i should also mention that virtually all of the names below were record-setting wide receivers, often named to All-American or All-conference teams for their performance on the field. they weren't just fast; they were good football players.

    Dave Klemic - Northeastern; ran a 4.37 at the Combine
    Brad Pyatt - Northern Colorado (and Kentucky); 4.38 40 at Pro Day
    Derek Abney - Kentucky; 4.37 at Pro Day
    Tom Crowder - Arkansas; 4.25 at Pro Day (timed by some scouts at 4.19)
    Matt Cutaia - Connecticut; 4.35 and 4.37 at Pro Day
    Troy Bergeron - no college; 4.30 by numerous NFL scouts
    James Lukowiak - Southern Connecticut State; 4.37 at Pro Day
    Scott Mayle - Ohio; 4.38 for NFL scouts after missing his Pro Day to run in the NCAA Indoor Track Championships
    Jesse Wendt - University of Wisconsin-Stout; ran back-to-back 4.28 40s at his Pro Day

    of course, wide receivers aren't the only ones who get screwed despite incredible speed. tailbacks and defensive backs are faced with the same Caste System biases ...

    Roger "the Rabbit" Robinson and Stan Zwinggi were the fastest tailbacks in their respective draft classes (both ran 4.3x). neither got a smell of NFL action. (Robinson even set every meaninful NFL Europe rushing record before getting ignored.)

    Nate Soelberg and Brandon Heaney were the fastest cornerbacks in their respective draft classes (both ran 4.3x), and neither was even invited to an NFL camp.

    i could go on and on, but i think i've made my point.
     
  10. FootballDad

    FootballDad Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,005
    Location:
    Somewhere near Kansas City, MO
    Not to mention Jake Sharp from Kansas who ran a 4.34 at his pro day and then went undrafted, and was then "Hatie-ized".
     
  11. The Sapient

    The Sapient Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Miami
    I decided to bump this thread with some new updates...

    Whether they were timed at the combine or at a pro-day event, the following is an incomplete list of White football athletes with "legitimate" 4.3 speed or better:

    1. Matt Jones
    2. Danny Woodhead
    3. Jeremy Bloom
    4. Kevin Curtis
    5. Done Beebe
    6. Jason Sehorn
    7. Chris Hogan
    8. Colin Jones
    9. Travis Jervey
    10. Tim Dwight
    11. Jake Locker
    12. Chris Prosinski
    13. John Wendling
    14. Dan Depalma
    15. RJ Kors
    16. Don Boyd Odegard
    17. Brian Rowley
    18. Scott Lockwood
    19. Gary Wellman
    20. Brad Lamb
    21. Dave Klemic
    22. Brad Pyatt
    23. Derek Abney
    24. Tom Crowder
    25. Matt Cutaia
    26. Troy Bergeron -
    27. James Lukowiak - Southern Connecticut State; 4.37 at Pro Day
    28. Scott Mayle
    29. Jesse Wendt
    30. Roger "the Rabbit" Robinson
    31. Stan Zwinggi
    32. Nate Soelberg
    33. Brandon Heaney
    34. Jake Sharp
    35. Jeremy Ebert
    36. Devon Whylie
    37. Ryan Swope
    38. Sam Mcguffie
    39. Cody Pearcy
    40. Josh Lenz
    41. Ben Ericksen

    Please feel free to update.


    Respectfully,

    The Sapient
     
  12. Wes Woodhead

    Wes Woodhead Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,103
    Every guy on that list was/is NFL star material without question. Still, I think 40 times are the most useless measurement possible for evaluating football talent. I absolutely despise the insanity that surrounds the all mighty 40 yard dash. As far as Im concerned its a totally meaningless waste of time. It might hold some legit credibility if they ran it in full pads. Its good to see this list though because it proves that 40 times only matter for white men when they run a slow 40.
     
  13. dwid

    dwid Master

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Messages:
    3,958
    Location:
    Louisiana
    the list will always be incomplete because I think the people who put out the "official" times will screw over White players. There are tons of scouts with different times. They choose which one they want to put out there for the public, and I am guessing they usually go with the slowest. A black player can run a 4.33 one time and then 4.45 the next and his time will somehow be "averaged out" to a 4.33 which makes no sense at all.


    Vinny Sutherland was noted for being the fastest player in Purdue history for running a 4.32 on campus, yet his combine time was a 4.48 and I believe this was before the combine was half electronic so there shouldn't have been that much of a difference. He ran a 10.4 100 meter dash in high school so I would be willing to bet the 4.32 time is more accurate.

    Speaking of Vinny, does anyone have the slightest clue as what happened to Chris Daniels? he had 121 receptions for Purdue in 1999, he was 6'3 220 pounds, he could have been a beast in the NFL because with the ball in his hands he looked like a runningback. He looked pretty fast and doubt he ran any slower than 4.6.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
  14. Twinkle Toes

    Twinkle Toes Guru

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    249
    Speaking of guys who have been timed at 4.3. Marc Mauro the royally screwed rb/db who went to Villanova and then Nassau CC has signed with Florida American. At least he gets a shot at a D1 school now. Lets hope we can add him to the list 2 years from now.
     
  15. Riggins44

    Riggins44 Master

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2007
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    Virginia
    Stokely

    I would think Brandon Stokely also, but I don't know for sure.
     
  16. TwentyTwo

    TwentyTwo Master

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Messages:
    2,012
    Location:
    Louisiana
    As a kid in the late 80's...remembered these names

    Jeff Query...5th Round pick...Packers...Fastest WR in 89 Class along with Don Beebe...can't locate "official times"... legit 4.3's..hand timed even faster!

    Sammy Martin...4th Round Pick in 88'...Patriots...played Tailback in college...NFL Kick Returner...hand timed 4.35-4.38...low 4.4's at Combine
     
  17. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    12,610
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I think Stokely was around a 4.45. He was pretty darn fast though despite the possession receiver label.

    Anyone remember Keith Poole of the Saints? The guy was averaging like 20 yards per reception. I can't find any 40 times for him anywhere but I know he was very fast and probably a 4.3 guy. How about Travis McGriff? He was very fast as well.
     
  18. The Sapient

    The Sapient Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Miami
    Bumping thread:

    1. Matt Jones
    2. Danny Woodhead
    3. Jeremy Bloom
    4. Kevin Curtis
    5. Done Beebe
    6. Jason Sehorn
    7. Chris Hogan
    8. Colin Jones
    9. Travis Jervey
    10. Tim Dwight
    11. Jake Locker
    12. Chris Prosinski
    13. John Wendling
    14. Dan Depalma
    15. RJ Kors
    16. Don Boyd Odegard
    17. Brian Rowley
    18. Scott Lockwood
    19. Gary Wellman
    20. Brad Lamb
    21. Dave Klemic
    22. Brad Pyatt
    23. Derek Abney
    24. Tom Crowder
    25. Matt Cutaia
    26. Troy Bergeron
    27. James Lukowiak
    28. Scott Mayle
    29. Jesse Wendt
    30. Roger "the Rabbit" Robinson
    31. Stan Zwinggi
    32. Nate Soelberg
    33. Brandon Heaney
    34. Jake Sharp
    35. Jeremy Ebert
    36. Devon Whylie
    37. Ryan Swope
    38. Sam Mcguffie
    39. Cody Pearcy
    40. Josh Lenz
    41. Ben Ericksen
    42. Vinny Sutherland
    43. Marc Mauro
    44. Jeff Query
    45. Jeff Janis
    46. Max McCaffrey

    Please feel free to update.


    Respectfully,

    The Sapient
     
  19. McCaffrey Dude

    McCaffrey Dude Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    501
    I like the list as I have heard of most of these players but I will add WR Brad Lamb whom I have mentioned before that had a 2 year stint with Buffalo in the early 90's.
    Question. How did you end up with Max McCaffrey on that list?He is a high 4.5 guy at best. It is funny how the Chritian M. Haters say he only has 4.5 speed himself. Funny thing. In high school he ran multiple 10.7 100 meters at track meets all around Colorado. Anyone that runs a 10.7 100 meters in IMO can easily run a 4.4.
     
  20. The Sapient

    The Sapient Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    Miami
    It has been previously stated by the McCaffrey family that Max is actually the fastest amongst Ed and his boys.

    Duke's Pro Day - Max McCaffrey reportedly ran an unofficial 4.36 40-yard dash according to ESPN's Adam Schefter.

    Resource:
    https://www.google.com/amp/amp.prof.../2016/03/23/91711ccf5cdf408ab1c7c4e6a5f2c157/
     
  21. McCaffrey Dude

    McCaffrey Dude Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    501
    Okay. I will kind of go with that. But why is it unofficial? I trust a combine time or 100 meter track time to judge someones speed where pro days are usually over exaggerated with stop watches that can be .2 seconds off and run on a surface faster than grass or turf. How many of these alleged black guys also get their numbers inflated? The problem with the combine is there are so few whites invited e can only go by there pro day times. Bummer.
     
  22. Ambrose

    Ambrose Master

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2013
    Messages:
    2,467
    Location:
    New York
    If hundreds of players with sub 4.5 times were timed it would not matter. Employees of the NFL are not hired based on their "40 yard times". It is not really an issue. The best receivers may even be slower with age but their performances improve with experience and improved skill. An injured Gronkowski cannot be faster now but he is almost uncoverable one on one. The entire American football system from college to NFL is fixated and formed to stream in as many black players as possible for economic and cultural reasons so often described on this site. Even when a player is embarrassingly good, like Tebow, and soon McCaffrey, the league doesn't want them -the league has also tried to sabotage the best quarterback to ever play the game: Tom Brady. Why? Because the NFL is a company whose business is entertainment; it is not based on merit but choice and election. Entertainment does not only mean amusement, though many erroneously think that; entertainment is also instruction, argument, as the film industry is entertainment -though, again, most viewers (receivers) of the medium do not realize or perceive that they have been instructed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
  23. McCaffrey Dude

    McCaffrey Dude Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    501
    Good post Ambrose. I have always argued with people that would you rather have a 4.5 guy that can catch the ball consistently or the 4.3 guy that has alligator arms? Is hand eye coordination not a part of athleticism? Running or jumping should not be the end-all-be-all judgement of athleticism.
    It has been witnessed by me for years that in high school and college combines that whites by a good margin show much better quickness and change of direction by such drills as the 3 cone drill. Who owns the 3 cone record at the college combine? Think Iowa wr and brief Denver wr. Who owns the high school all time high school 3 cone combine time? Think current Miami U. wr.
    Who owns the most points ever in a high school combine. Current and totally underutilized cb Colin Spencer from Kansas. Pitiful.
     
  24. McCaffrey Dude

    McCaffrey Dude Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    501
    I take it back. My Iowa guy whose name I forget off the top off my head is second I believe. White wr and totally casted in the NFL Oregon's Jeff Maehl holds the record. Braxton Berrios is the Miami receiver.
     
  25. McCaffrey Dude

    McCaffrey Dude Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    501
    Devon Wylie. Fresno State. Ryan Anderson cb Vanderbilt 97-99.
     

Share This Page