Black QBs in the NFL

Discussion in 'NFL' started by Woody, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. La France Blanche

    La France Blanche Mentor

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    DuhShone is one of the worst quarterbacks I've ever seen, on the same level as Akili Smiff. The fact that he's been given so many chances, including the opportunity to be a starter for an entire season, is yet another glaring piece of evidence to add to proof of anti-white discrimination in the NFL.
     
  2. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    Looks like Jason Lacuckfora is doing his best to get recognized by The Undefeated and line up a job with them with this hilarious piece. I think anyone of us who watched Haskins in college realized that he was a system QB and that system that Ohio St runs has yet to produce a quality NFL passer (Justin Fields will have issues in the NFL too). Haskins only strong suit was completing the short and medium crossing patterns at Ohio St. I love how LaCanfora tries throw white QBs under the bus. He really hates Kyle Allen who played better than Haskins has ever played - they both have about the same number of years experience - Allen is one year older and as Rivera stated he knows the system. Lacuckfora also does his best to throw Daniel Jones under the bus - I guess he has not seen what Jones has to work with and deal with in New York. Jones also has play making ability, is a better passer, more athletic and intelligent than Haskins.

    All off season I heard about how Alex Smith was mentoring Haskins and it was all wonderful in Washington - this was the media running this story line. Snyder wanted Haskins and fired Gruden over his reluctance to play Haskins. Now all of the sudden Haskins has no support system. He also gets into the virtue signaling game too by whining about the Redskins nickname. A name he had no issues saying prior to Washington getting rid of it. What a noble social justice warrior. The last sentence I bolded at the bottom of the article just goes to show his lack of awareness about the caste system - if he really wanted to talk about unfair treatment he would look at how difficult it is for a white player to get recruited, play major college football and get drafted but he would much rather get on board the black QBs are the victims card.

    Dwayne Haskins benching: With no Washington advocates, young QB caught in vortex of organizational failure

    Dwayne Haskins got a raw deal. There is no other way to say it.

    No player can control where he is drafted, and Haskins landed in The Quarterback Twilight Zone, where careers go to die before they barely begin. It's as if the Washington Football Team looked back at the previous two decades when they still had that terrible, racist nickname and said: Robert Griffin III, Jason Campbell, Patrick Ramsey, Heath Shuler ... Hold our beer, Football Team fans, you ain't seen nothing yet.

    Haskins is out. Tossed aside after 11 starts and just 13 appearances spanning 13 months. He has been jettisoned to the rubbish bin as the No. 3 quarterback after fewer than 350 pass attempts, while playing under three coaches, all since being drafted 15th overall just 16 months ago. Heck, the Arizona Cardinals at least gave Josh Rosen nearly 400 pass attempts before they gave up on him a year after drafting him 10th overall. The Washington Football Guys found a way to top that. Well done!

    Haskins was a player caught up in a vortex of organizational failure on every level, and -- worst of all in this league when it comes to quarterbacks -- he was a young passer without a benefactor, without anyone left in his building who was truly invested in his success or gave much of a damn about catering to what he did best. He had no advocates, which is a killer in a league where it seems lately more is invested in keeping "system guys" like Matt Schaub and Chad Henne and Blaine Gabbert steady getting paychecks forever than is spent in some places truly trying to develop and incubate a struggling novice quarterback.

    Let's keep it real here: Sure, Haskins has some blemishes; he ain't perfect. Far from it. He is 23 years old and has some maturity issues (newsflash, so do many young players!) and his work habits may be a work in progress. But he was also a product of his environment.


    Haskins only really played one year of big-time college football, and was drafted by a team that came this close to firing it's offensive-minded head coach, Jay Gruden, before Haskins had ever even taken a snap. So, of course, Jay Gruden is finally put out of his misery five games into the 2019 season (the entire league knew this was coming before the season started, by the way, as is so often the case during Dan Snyder's regime), Haskins is thrust into a starting role too soon and interim head coach Bill Callahan seemingly wanted little to do with him from the start, and tried to find ways to win games in ways that literally ran counter to what one might expect out of a rebuilding team trying to learn as much as it could about a first-round passer (just keep handing off to the geriatric running back!).

    Oh, all the while, the organization was at war with arguably its best player, All Pro left tackle Trent Williams, who vowed never to play for them again back in February of 2019 and was finally traded in the spring of 2020 without playing a snap for them in the interim. So they put Haskins behind a putrid line with a single reliable pass-catching target (fellow Ohio State product Terry McLaurin), they basically sat out fortifying that line until the fifth round of the draft and passed on three rounds worth of receivers in a generational receiver draft (yeah, they took Antonio Gibson in the third round but they converted him to running back ... having him learn a new position in a pandemic without any offseason and a shortened training camp and no preseason games.

    But they trumped that by installing an entirely new system in Washington, which in few ways really played to Haskins's strength, and did little to meet him halfway by mimicking what he did best at Ohio State when he threw 50 touchdowns. And, again, they did this in a pandemic with super limited teaching time at the actual facility. And they brought in a young QB in Kyle Allen, who had a benefactor (Bingo!) in new offensive coordinator Scott Turner, who he played for in 2019 in Carolina. Which explains why, a mere three games into his tenure under Ron Rivera's coaching staff, Haskins was already called out by his head coach and put in public notice about potentially losing his job (this, I suppose, is how you build that WINNING CULTURE that coaches always pontificate about when they come to doomed places like Washington). So now, when the Washington Football Guys invariably got smoked by the Super-Bowl contending Ravens on Sunday, because, well, they had the second overall pick in April for a reason, we can go ahead and scapegoat that QB and make that change you already warned everyone might be coming.


    Shocking how that public scolding didn't necessarily bring out the best in a kid who, besides the owner (who is dealing with massive issues like his minority partners wanting out and the NFL investigating widespread claims of sexual impropriety throughout his organization), no one has seemed to bother to take an interest in since he got to town. It belies a reality in which this staff sure as hell seems to have made up its mind long ago that Allen was going to get a look-see pretty quickly (they ran out and traded for him, after all, to pay him $675,000 at a time when guys like Cam Newton and Andy Dalton and Jameis Winston would flood the free-agent market all around around $1M a year).

    You think Haskins couldn't see the okeydoke coming? He has better numbers this season than Daniel Jones, who the Giants took nine spots ahead of him and who also has a new coaching staff. But no one put Jones on the clock three games into 2020. Hmm.

    And The WFT staff did all of this while installing an offense that, a year ago while with the Panthers, despite getting an MVP-caliber season out of running back Christian McCaffrey (who also dominates in the passing game) and having explosive receivers like D.J. Moore and Curtis Samuel available for 15 starts each, and former Pro Bowl tight end Greg Olsen available for 14 starts, managed to put up the following numbers:


    Passer Rating: 32nd
    Interceptions: Tied for 1st
    Third Down Conversions: 29th
    20-plus yard passes: 28th
    Points Score Over Final 8 games: 29th

    That is what Haskins is being kicked to the curb for: The Allen/Turner project. I'll add that the 2019 Panthers passing game accomplished all of that despite ranking 8th in average field position and 12th in percent of rushes that went for four or more yards. And now we get to see it again, only now with just as bad of an offensive line, and no reliable running game and with Dontrelle Inman in the role of Samuel and with Logan Thomas as the "go-to" tight end while Gibson learns to play a new position on the fly and learn pass protections. Good luck with that, WFT fans. Sounds miserable to me.

    I mean, why would you try to install things that might work for Haskins and mix in a bit of the college stuff that is working so well with other youngsters when you've got that in your back pocket? Never mind giving him some time to develop and meeting him halfway during a season that could end up getting wrecked by COVID, anyway, during which the head coach is battling cancer and nothing is normal. Breaking news: The WFT is not going to win many games outside of the horrid NFC East this season with Allen at quarterback (and Alex Smith, returning from potentially life-altering surgeries, will be under suboptimal conditions to do much as well if/when he takes over).


    Rivera and his staff had the kid for all of six weeks this summer, watched him throw 146 passes in their system, and they've seen enough. Apparently, the 489 attempts they saw out of Allen last year weren't enough. Which brings me to a little exercise. Try to name the following quarterbacks through their first 13 NFL games:

    Player A) 193/283 (48.4%), 1,801 yards, 8 TD/15 INT, 59.6 rating

    Player B) 208/349 (59.6%), 2,304 yards, 11 TD/10 INT, 77.8 rating

    Player C) 269/476 (56.6%), 2,869 yards, 21 TD /25 INT, 68.0 rating

    Answers: Player A is John Elway; Player B is Haskins; Player C is Peyton Manning.

    No, I don't think Haskins is Elway or Manning. It's not a fair comparison on a multitude of levels. But the sample size is what it is, and there is no way to know what Haskins is or isn't at this stage of his career, given all that has transpired since he was donned a cap bearing a logo that no longer exists. And Allen might be okay. Who knows? He showed well for a month or so last season until it all broke down. But this isn't about him, anyway.


    It's about how the league works. And who gets second and third chances, and who barely gets one no matter how high they were drafted. Circumstances matter. Perhaps Haskins' career is destined to continue to mimic Rosen's in more ways than one. One hopes that's not the case. But there were larger forces at work in both being discarded so quickly. And there are reasons why the WFT is on starting QB No. 30 since 1993.
     
  3. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    That's funny but U of Hawaii qb's have been labeled as system qb's for years and have had on the surface brilliant seasons viewed under a harsh lense and I don't recall one qb ever getting more than cup of coffee in the NFL. After Houston had two failing qb's in a row that school had a similar label. Even USC has had their quarterbacks viewed as overrated because of the recent failures at qb less Palmer, I haven't heard anything about Ohio State qb's.

    The last Ohio State qb that was labeled a true blue chip prospect IMO was Art Schlister(as far as I know) and his personal issues with gambling derailed his career.
     
  4. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    Found some more interesting information about Haskins and how it sounds like he has burned bridges and derailed his career:

    https://nfltraderumors.co/nfc-notes-cowboys-panthers-washington/

    - 106.7 The Fan's Grant Paulsen says the final straw for Washington QB Dwayne Haskins in the eyes of the coaching staff this week was his attitude during and after the loss to the Ravens alst week. He was jovial with Ravens backup QB Robert Griffin after the loss and was bragging about his stat line of over 300 passing yards in the locker room after the game. Maturity has been of the team's criticisms of Haskins.
     
  5. La France Blanche

    La France Blanche Mentor

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    Black QBs padding their stats in garbage time? Say it isn't so!
     
  6. Tannehill17

    Tannehill17 Mentor

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    "Da league dun messed up!"

    That quote told me all I needed to know about Haskins.
     
  7. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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  8. Bucky

    Bucky Master

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  9. 54sTheMike

    54sTheMike Newbie

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    First post here, long time lurker. Hate to say it but the best qbs in the nfl are black. I was devastated seeing joe burrows injury. Carson wentz has somehow regressed to the worst qb in the nfl. But these black qbs of today seem to be at around 65% completion while also averaging from 7-9 yards per attempt. Dak Prescott was probably gonna blow past 5,000 yards passing, Russell Wilson has cooled off a bit, as has kyler Murray but look at deshaun Watson and mahomes. Watson and mahomes are both 1 and 2 in nfl history in career passer rating. Mahomes is first in both career passer rating and passing yards per game. Lamar Jackson won an mvp in 2019 and looks to be the best qb from the 2018 draft. If dak Prescott never got hurt this would have been more than likely the third straight year a black qb has gone over 5,000 yards. I’m starting to see more and more black qbs dominate the high school ranks here in California too. I was young enough to remmeber jimmy clausen and Matt barkley. It’s like an ethnic cleansing of the white qb at the junior level where white coaches want to make the “athlete” the qb
     
  10. Bucky

    Bucky Master

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    Well thanks for joining up to tell your opinion long time lurker. Declaring Lamar best QB of '18 is comical if you look at his regression this season. Josh Allen and Baker are better and will last longer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  11. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    The lower the level of football the more a primitive offense is effective. I remember my high school has an ethnic Italian qb who was built along the lines of a pared down Tony Siragusa and whenever the pocket collapsed (nearly every throwing down) he literally moved like an iceberg and carried x defensive players for 5+ yards and a cloud of dust and then fell in a heap. This type of running isn't going to work at anything beyond the high school level.

    The style of Jackson has been used at the college level for 40+ years by Black qb's with varying success, if you include White wishbone qb's then it's 50+years and this style until fairly recently has never been tried in the NFL as GM's and scouts knew that a qb being an essential option running back won't last any longer than a typical tailback. Teams want a qb that will last at least 10 years as their starter, or you will have to have a pipeline of Jacksons like what teams do with running backs.

    Look at Newton he is visibly slower and looks like he is literally on his last legs, or look at RGIII and see what happened to him.

    You can't fit a round peg into a square hole and that's what a running qb is in the NFL after x years of abuse on his body.

    PS the football scene in this episode of the Flintstones looked like what my high school qb did on running plays.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  12. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    The rules have constantly changed in favour of easier passing. Offensive schemes have also evolved and adapted. 65% completion isn't what it used to be. Whites are still doing great at qb. Brees was lighting things up at 41 and Brady has had plenty of great games, at 43 years old. That's insane and wouldn't happen 20 years ago. Rodgers is 37 and one of the best.

    If 40 year old White guys can dominate the league there's no evidence that plenty more of younger ones couldn't dominate, they are just getting less chances and many aren't in ideal situations like Sam Darnold

    Mahomes lucked out into a great situation. Alex Smith was written off a bust and did great on the same offense. They were slowly building up a great team and he was replaced, he probably could've won with the same team. Yes Mahomes threw for 4000 yards last year, 2000 came after the catch. The year before 5000, 2452 came after the catch . It's not necessarily a knock on talent but a 41 year old Brees gets criticism for doing the same exact thing, getting many yards after the catch, but his last full season the Saints ranked in the middle of the league for yac, he still passed for 4000 yards. Yet a few weeks ago before his injury many were speculating that Brees was washed up, while Mahomes is considered the best.

    Rodgers has the highest passer rating in the league right now

    Brees, Josh Allen, Tannehill both have higher qbr ratings than Watson, and Carr is only slightly behind

    There's literally only a handful of qbs doing poorly. Like 90 percent of the league has around a mid 60% completion ratio so I don't see how this supports you're argument

    Btw it's hard to say if Prescott would have thrown for 5k. I think with covid and a lack of training camps/ preseason defenses were playing worse than usual league wide to start the season
     
  13. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    Respectfully disagree. Watson and Mahomes are 1 and 2 in NFL history with min 15oo career passing attempts - Rodgers held that record for almost a decade. I caught that snippet during the game last night as well. I'd say that Mahomes/Rodgers are probably 1a and 1b right now. As for Watson who has he beat this year? Jacksonville twice, New England and Detroit. The league has already caught up to Lamar Jackson and the Ravens offense. Murray will be next up in that regard. Please go back to 2013 when the same arguments were taking place.

    Look no further than Denver’s qb debacle last week. Hinton was supposedly a very highly touted high school qb who eventually transferred to WR in college. His lack of arm strength was painfully obvious. That isn’t the typical route of the “athlete” that gets plugged into the qb position in high school.

    As @dwid mentioned - the constant rule changes have made the position much friendlier to play which allows more simplistic offenses to succeed in the NFL. Comparatively the qbs of today are not as impressive as those from the mid - 2000s and back. Instead of corronating Mahomes as the best qb ever to play they should put his performances in the context of the era he plays in.
     
  14. icsept

    icsept Master

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    You absolutely cannot compare QB statistics throughout the different eras. The only fair comparison is W/L % and Super Bowl championships. And, running quarterbacks still don’t win Super Bowls. Mahomes is not a runner. Wilson got his
    Super Bowl win with the best defense in football and Marshawn Lynch as the primary offensive weapon. Otherwise, you have multiple Super Bowl wins for Brady, the Manning brothers and Roethlisberger; plus wins for Drew Brees, Nick Foles, Joe Flacco...I’m not seeing the proof that the running quarterback has taken over the position.
     
  15. Hartline

    Hartline Newbie

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    Josh Allen is the best QB of the 2018 class
    Mahomes is a great QB but Watson has regressed
    Passer rating is a pointless stat
    Dak Prescott struggles to win games in a terrible division. He is a massive stat padder who puts up number late when his team is down 2-3 scores in the fourth.
     
  16. 54sTheMike

    54sTheMike Newbie

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    Lamar Jackson whether we agree or disagree has been the best qb from the 2018 draft class thus far based on accolades, all pro teams, mvp's and pro bowls. Time will tell in the future if that remains the case

    as for deshaun watson since bill o brien was fired in week 4. He has been the most dominant qb in the league with a pff grade of 91.2, with mahomes in 2nd at 90.6. I too thought that without hopkins that deshune would get exposed but thats not really been the case( hes actually gotten better). We will see how deshune does goung forward this year now that reciever Fuller has been suspended for the rest of the season

    this graphic was actually posted before the lions thanksgiving noon game. Also Deshune is one of the few quaotbacks i sort of respect because of his story, quitting school to look at after his sick mom. I can relate because i was 15 when my dad was addicted to drugs and my mom was diagnosed breast cancer

    https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1331280972831207425?s=20


    I also agree with the premise that passer rating can be an overrated stat, but when you have an elite passer rating and an elite yards per completion like mahomes and watson, that means that they can diagnose coverages pre-snap and push the ball down the field in tight windows. Barring injury these guys are the future of the position, they have been elite every year since they have been in the league. I like justin herbert a lot, i get to watch him out here in cali but he does get away with a lot of risky throws( if he can dial it back some on the hero ball) i think his ceiling is unlimited

    Also dak prescott is damn good, even thought as a lifelong giants fan i hate the guy. We are seeing the cowboys without dak look totally inept on offense, some of that could be mike mccarthy not really being a good coach and another part of that as i have always believed is that zeke elliot is the most overrated running back in the league and has been for years. CMAC get underrated, but look at the panthers without the guy, teddy bridgewater isnt anything more than checkdown charlie backup. The Panthers are going to draft a qb this upcoming draft for sure. I like Zack Wilson
     
  17. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    "best qb 2018 draft" first of all doesn't mean much based on the fact that not every draft class is going to be qb strong. Geno Smith is the best qb of the 2013 draft.

    Secondly, it's too soon to tell anything, it's his 2nd year starting and he has already regressed a little. Rg3 was all the hype after his big year running read option. Also Kaepernick was considered great around that time too.

    3rd many teams just aren't built for immediate success and constantly keep having qb busts and it's more about the team around the qb. Tannehill was drafted same year as RG3 and considered a bust now with a different team he's revived his career. Kirk Cousins (also 2012) has also grown to be a good qb while RG3 isn't worth much and Kaepernick has been long gone

    Both Baltimore and Chiefs were pretty strong teams before their new recent qbs and 2020 is a hard year to judge because the first half of the year many defenses were playing absolutely horrible (worse than usual), teams aren't as balanced, there's a whole division with a losing record

    Either way great passing will always rule the day, and no evidence that White qbs don't excel doing that. Running qbs will be gimmicky with limited success.

    Think about it, when you pass you have a wall of blockers to stop people from getting you while you have multiple receivers run down the field unhindered...if you have accuracy you can get a big play. When you run you're breaking through that wall of protection to the defense side and everybody is going to try to stop you as soon as you cross the line of scrimmage. It's why running backs have short careers. No difference with running qbs. Running plays average like less than half of each passing one

    Defenders can cover receivers but can't try to take them down.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  18. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    Great post!

    Also, a ball gets from point A to point B faster than a human will. Probably the most overlooked yet obvious premise of the position.
     
  19. RaZon

    RaZon Guest

    When we take into consideration blacks make up just 14% of Americans and of that 14% about 7% are males. So to see as many black NFL QB's as we do, not bad.

    Patrick Mahomes, Russell Wilson, Warren Moon among the very elite, obviously black QB;s are more capable of extending plays, gaining yards with their legs, so, another weapon.
     
  20. Bucky

    Bucky Master

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    Damn those numbers are even more impressive when you take into account how many murders(60%) were committed by that 7%.
     
  21. RaZon

    RaZon Guest

    I totally agree, blacks have a problem with violence, just look at Nigeria, anywhere we find blacks we see an overwelming amount of violence, hell, old blues songs about ice picks and razors.

    But, they sure can run, a fact of life.
     
  22. Claimjumper

    Claimjumper Mentor

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    “Football Team” just released Haskins after his strip club antics (and jamarcus Russell level of play I’d presume)

    monumental bust lol
     
  23. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    LOL Christmas comes a few days late for me :applaudit:
     
  24. Tannehill17

    Tannehill17 Mentor

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    I remember when he said "da league dun messed up" when all those teams passed on him. That quote right there told me all I needed to know about him. I will say, I am quite surprised he got cut this quickly. How many 1st round QB's were discarded after less than 3 years? Rosen, Dan McGwire, and Paxton Lynch are the only ones I can think of.
     
  25. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    I'll give Rivera credit here for cutting ties with him.
     

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