2020 NFL Draft

Discussion in 'NFL' started by Leonardfan, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    I thought the pro days started next week? Thanks Red raider for the heads up.

    Yes Schoen has been a focus here at CF for a few years. Word is he ran in the 4.44-4.48 range and had a solid 35 inch vertical. 15 bench presses too.

    Had a 37-579-4 senior year stat line for Kansas State a team that wasn't a pass first operation. When you think of the over 50 black wide receivers that were invited to the combine were black and two of them were from the big time program known as Rhode Island ( give me a break) they couldn't find room for Schoen?

    What a bunch of horse manure. Here is a player who should be a late round draft pick but he has been pushed aside from the draft process which sidelines too many worthy white skill players.


     
  2. backrow

    backrow Hall of Famer

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    5 flat speed and 40+ on the bench, sounds like someone's gonna get a steal.
     
  3. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    @Red raider thanks for keeping up with the key pro day news for our guys!

    Schoen would of been tied with 3 other combine invites with a 4.47 for the 15th best time of the WRs.

    Hastings 4.50 is also a very solid time - he probably posted some good three cone numbers as well - perhaps another Renfrow?

    Canella with a 4.73 at his size is very good - he was faster than Quintez Cephus and right behind Jauan Jennings while being 25+ lbs bigger than both of them.

    It's pretty obvious why these guys do not get invited to the combine because the caste system does not want to be exposed - too many whiteys performing well at the combine means that they can't just be treated as random outliers that come along every few years. It would actual dispel the myth of blacks being more athletic.
     
  4. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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  5. Bucky

    Bucky Master

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    Definitely some good workouts for our guy's.

    I was expecting Hastings to time better, obviously still recovering from his injury. Still not bad, I'd like to see him bulked up a bit and healthy.

    Canella has really grown into his body. Another guy a couple years ago I would assume be a shoe in for an invite.

    And yes Marino is definitely a Muscle Shark!

    Gaziano has gotten zero respect this draft process. Crazy considering his production and size. They've completely ignored his 28.5 sacks in The Big Ten and most gurus have him as a late Rd/undrafted guy. Completely ridiculous.
     
  6. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    Funny how the poly AJ Epenesa is getting so much hype playing in the same conference. Gaziano is just about the same size and they had similar production yet Gaziano is a caste afterthought and Epenesa is deemed a 1st round pick. The real shame about the caste system is we will never get to know how the overlooked white athletes would compare against the hyped up non-whites playing the same positions since their is a very slim chance that the white afterthought will get the same opportunities.
     
  7. Red raider

    Red raider Mentor

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    I’m 99% sure Will Hastings will not get drafted but I’m 100% sure a team will sign him after the draft, after that the ball is in his court to sign with a good team that will give him a chance. I’d love to see him stick around, he has been one of my favorite underdog stories since I first heard of him. All of us here have seen what he can do and if he stayed healthy he was primed for a big season in 2018 after 500+ yards and over 20 yards per catch in 2017 as a starter. It’s unfortunate that his injury lingered for so long.

    As for Cannella, I’m not as sure about his future. Obviously we expected more out of him than 25-330-5 stat line over 3 years but he proved he can make spectacular catches and has fantastic size. I think it would be a great idea to take a chance on him at tight end, kinda reminds me of Dan Arnold making the switch from tall lean WR to bulked up athletic TE in the NFL.
     
  8. Bucky

    Bucky Master

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  9. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Anyone know why Tanner Muse didn't run the 3-cone and 20 yard shuttle at the Combine?
     
  10. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    That question about Tanner would apply to most of the defensive backs. Less than a third ran the 20 yard shuttle and a little more than a third ran the 3-cone. Tanner did have a 34 1/2 vertical and a solid 124 inches broad jump. He also bench pressed 20 times so overall his other numbers outside of his blazing 40 were rock solid.

    Interestingly unlike most of the other white players apart from the OL which I didn't look up, Muse was measured as having a decent wingspan. Leonardfan had mentioned in a prior post that in general it was really obvious this year that the black players had longer arm lengths and wingspans than the white players.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  11. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    Announcers for the past few years had raved about Epenesa's "speed." I remember one saying he was not like the usual ( read white) DL from Iowa because of that speed.

    Well it turns out he wasn't all that fast. He ran a 5.04 40 but that doesn't mean anything to me. The important number is his 1.78 10 yard split which is below average for a DE. Compare that to the above average times of Kenny Willekes and Derek Tuszka who both ran a 1.69 10 yard split.

    In order to be an effective edge rusher you need the ability to have suddenness. Getting off the mark fast, which the Bosa brothers excel at, is the key. Strength plays a role. Other techniques figure in as well including body control and bend plus of course hand maneuvers. In other words mastering wrestling type moves are very important for DL. The much discussed 40 yard dash doesn't figure in at all as far as I can tell.

    The Bosa brothers didn't run blazing 40 yard dash times but they play much better than the dudes who did because their quickness is superior. Terrell Suggs ran a 4.84 40 yard dash but enjoyed a long fruitful career. Meanwhile Montez Sweat ran a very fast 40 yard dash but it didn't translate into many sacks etc. last season.The media and idiot draft gurus like Todd McShay are fools for concentrating on defensive ends 40 yard dash times.

    Speaking of quick 10 yard splits Wyoming linebacker Logan Wilson had an impressive 1.54 10 yard split. That translates into blazing closing speed on the football field. And since Wilson has gotten raves about his ability to cover receivers in space look for him to get drafted on day two. Hell for all we know he could be a first round talent but scouts rarely designate these things to white players like Logan who flew under the general media radar for most of his career.

    Too often draft gurus rely on athletic measurements. For example the vertical leap in basketball is important. But so is standing reach. And the ability to jump quickly. Larry Bird was one of the quickest leapers I have seen. His ability to pop up into the air quickly was what made him such a stellar rebounder. That along with massive powerful paws and a strong core.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  12. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    Just a few more general comments about the way the NFL Combine is set up.

    1-Much discussed here over the years is the constant shunning of many white skill players. The most noticeable areas of neglect are wide receivers, defensive backs and running backs.

    2-Call me paranoid but I get the sense a lot of the black players are on PEDs. This is especially noticeable in the most skilled positions like wide receiver and defensive back. Linebackers as well. Meanwhile the black quarterbacks do not look to be on some sort of juice. Jalen Hurts, widely regarded as one of the fastest QBs in the country ran a 4.59 40 yard dash. Unlike the many say black defensive backs who run, Hurt's time feels about right. All those 4.4 and some 4.3 times posted by black players don't feel quite right to me. And it goes without saying the builds of many of these black players do not look like the exclusive result of heavy "barbell work." In short these are bodies that don't look like they are the result of natural working out methods.

    3-Taking a playbook from the black superiority crowd all the testing events at the NFL Combine feature quick twitch skills. This falls in line with the theory that black athletes descended from Western Africa have superior speed and jumping ability than other people around the world.

    Football is not soccer with the constant running or hockey. But keep in mind they constantly shift players in and out of hockey. That said football players still must possess some level of endurance and fitness. If a defense is on the field a long time we often notice they start to wear out. Which begs the question the Combine fails to address? What happens to the speed of players when they tire? How much slower do they run when fatigued? Does a fully rested 4.4 runner still run a 4.4 after being on the field running around for a spell? If not what is the percentage drop of his speed? All the runners at the combine run at a fully rested state. If going by the theory of black superiority which also suggests those of Western African descent tire more easily why isn't that pursued here at the Combine too. Football isn't a short sprint track and field event so endurance plays a much bigger role.

    Naturally the NFL Combine doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about that key component. If they did it would behoove them to have the non linemen run a mile and just like the 40 have those times posted in bright lights and discussed for weeks like they do the 40 yard dash. Are they afraid the white skill players would consistently upstage the black players in the mile?

    It would break the spell perhaps? Having golden 40 yard dash child Henry Ruggs not winning the mile? And the optics of blazing black runners gasping for air as they trudge through the last 500 meters in a mile race? It might resemble the foolish look Rich Eisen subjects us to every year when he lopes through the 40 yard dash.

    By all means the media doesn't want to put their black athletic treasures in any compromising situations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  13. Red raider

    Red raider Mentor

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    I noticed this year that a lot of players from all positions skipped many of the workouts, I was looking through some of the numbers for certain drills and was wondering why there were very few results, seems like a lot of players just did vertical and 40 yd dash and skipped everything else. Not sure if they’re waiting for pro day or just not doing it.

    One player I’m starting to get concerned about is David Woodward. I was expecting him to put up good numbers at the combine since he was a former RB/S in high school but it seems like the bulking up took away a little bit of that athletic ability. There has not been much talk about him recently after all the hype he received after the 2018 season. I have a feeling there will be a team that likes him and picks him in round 4-5 kinda like the Giants with Ryan Connelly last year. Maybe my expectations are high because almost EVERY single white linebacker last year ran in the 4.5-4.6 range. Woodward ran a 4.79 and didn’t have very impressive agility times either.
     
  14. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    Yes LB Woodward is a bit of a mystery but remember he only played about four or five games or so before he went down with an undisclosed injury. Rarely do you see top flight black players go down with an "undisclosed injury" yet on more than a few occasions this past season white players injuries weren't made public. I have no idea why?

    I tried like hell to figure out Woodward's injury but got nowhere. Sifting through the tea leaves I suspect it was a lower body injury ( groin/knee) and there is a better than 50% chance it affected his drill times at the combine. Perhaps like WR Chris Finke who performed the drills even though he had some possible injury issues. White players should know better not to run the 40 yard dash unless they are fully healthy.

    One more point about the mile run. It is a good way to measure baseline endurance. And since steroids are beneficial in short sprinting events in swimming and track and field ( not to mentioned weight lifting) they actually can become a hindrance in longer events. So it would be interesting to watch the black "steroid gang" we witness every year at the combine run the old fashioned mile.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  15. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    The reason I asked about Muse is because the media is already assuming he's stiff and tight-hipped, just as they assumed he was slow before he ran the 40. This article wants him to be a linebacker and compares him to Nate Gerry, who was crucified last year for missing a single tackle. Muse should have run the quickness drills as the worst is assumed about him even after his tremendous size-speed showing in the 40. Check out what this Caste Clown wrote, picking up on apparent criticism of Muse by Crissie Collinsworth's Pro Football Focus:

    Despite showing solid explosive ability at the combine with a 122-inch broad jump and a 30.5-inch vertical, Gerry only ran at 4.58 40 at 218 pounds. Muse did similarly well at the broad and vertical jumps (34.5 and 124) but ran out of the gym with a 4.41 40 – a number that would have ranked him first overall among testing linebackers if he tested with linebackers.

    Make no mistake about it, that blazing-fast number will certainly push Muse up draft boards, potentially multiple rounds. Still, his non-performances may actually highlight an issue with his playing style and prevent some team from selecting the redshirt-senior. As highlighted on Pro Football Focus’ always-excellent 2-for-1 Podcast, Muse is not exceptionally talented when it comes to change of direction, and would have struggled mightily with the 3 cone drill, the 20-yard shuffle, and the 60-yard shuffle.

    This would make Muse a less than ideal safety at the NFL-level, as he can’t be reliably, um, relied on to cover slot receivers, or even uber-shifty running backs in space, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he can’t be counted on to rough it up between the tackles, cover sideline-to-sideline, and even drop down to cover a bigger-bodied tight end.


    Wait, isn’t that the very same role the Eagles asked Gerry to play in 2019 and presumably in 2020? My goodness, it is.

    https://section215.com/2020/03/05/philadelphia-eagles-tanner-muse-gerry/
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  16. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    Like Troy Apke, Muse represents a serious threat to the caste system. If you recall Apke aced every drill at his combine but the nit pickers started in right away. The greater a white player is a threat to the caste status quo the greater the media resistance. Look at how they view Taysom Hill. Many scoff at the idea he could run a team.

    I suspect Muse would perform all of the drills well, he does have long legs so it might hinder his 20 yard shuttle a little bit but the bottom line is if he did score well they would quickly look for another flaw.

    Like "Muse couldn't ace the top end engineering test at Carnegie Mellon so he can't be that good" kind of thing.

    I ran across the article cited above and thought the same thing. There is a much better comparison out there. A Chiefs report thought Muse could be utilized like Daniel Sorensen.
     
  17. Red raider

    Red raider Mentor

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    “Off the top of my head Finke may be our best hope next year for a WR drafted. I say if he puts up 700+ yards he should get a combine invite for next year. Most of college football is aware of who he is by now, and media loves his personality and always swarms to him. It’s so easy to find interviews of him because they always want to talk to him.”

    I’m proud of this post from last year, it aged well and Finke got a combine invite with less stats than I projected. I sometimes think we have an influence on the decisions such as inviting Finke and Muse to the combine. I really have a hunch that a team will draft Chris Finke, I really don’t see him going undrafted this year. I feel like the white slot receivers started to die out a little bit but with Hunter Renfrow’s success last year it kinda rejuvenated the interest in quick slot receivers. I think the NFL realizes that Finke is talented but the Notre Dame system didn’t allow him to become a star. He will make a team very happy and I think he will have a solid career.
     
  18. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    I have not been able to find highlights of his on field work out either. I did read on another forum that he did look good in on field drills which should showcase his change of direction ability.
     
  19. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    I think there will be a decent number of white udfas that get signed - that has been the road most traveled for white WRs it seems. It’s an annual rite of the preseason - white skill position players perform well and are purged anyways.
     
  20. Red raider

    Red raider Mentor

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    I really hope Bailey Gaither gets a chance. His body type and speed reminds me of Kevin Curtis, who had a decent career in the NFL. The NFL needs a white speedster WR like him, we haven’t had one since Jordy Nelson’s prime. Even though Jordy was a 4.5 runner he was a great deep threat. Also Bailey Gaithers best friend since childhood is Josh Oliver (Jags TE) so maybe the Jags will sign him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  21. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    Lol , White players rarely perform poorly in the 3 cone and shuttle drills. I looked up the worst numbers to verify and only a few guys did worse than most of their peers in the last decade and they were all big tight ends. I don't think any of the sub 4.7 players have performed poorly in the agility drills
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
  22. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    Weenieworld's spin on Hastings pro day:

    Auburn WR Will Hastings ran the 40-yard dash in 4.50 seconds at the school's pro day.
    That's a hand-timed mark, so view it with that in mind. Hastings -- who did not receive a combine invite -- additionally posted a 33-inch vertical jump and a broad jump of 9-foot-8. The Auburn wideout possesses decent enough straight-line speed, but there's not much else in his evaluation to suggest a longterm pro future. Not only does he lack burst, Hastings is an undersized prospect, measuring in at 5-foot-10, 175 pounds prior to pro day testing.


    Compare that to two other Auburn Pro day workouts for black players. No mention of 4os being hand timed for them. Especially with Kam Martin who seems pretty undersized to be an RB at 5-9 187 lbs. Just wanted to post this here to prove the obvious discrepancies and biases that exist - we will no doubt see more of this type of coverage at other pro days this spring.

    Auburn HB Jay Jay Wilson ran the 40-yard dash in 4.83 seconds at the school's pro day.
    Wilson measured in at 6-foot-2, 239 pounds, then proceeded to post the above 40-yard dash as well as a 36-inch vertical jump and 9-foot-1 broad jump. Less than impressive marks, though if Wilson is to scrap it out for a UDFA signing later this spring, he's not going to be tasked with much stat-producting-type work. More the dirty work.


    Auburn RB Kam Martin ran the 40-yard dash in 4.50 seconds at the school's pro day.
    A perfectly fine 40-yard dash time (if nothing mind-blowing) for Martin, here. His jumps were less shiny, as the 5-foot-9, 187-pound back managed just 29.5 inches on his vertical jump and 9-foot-4 on his broad jump. Martin was a steady performer with Auburn, but never developed into more than that. He'll likely have to try to latch on with an NFL club as an undrafted free agent later this spring.
     
  23. Shadowlight

    Shadowlight Master

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    I would have figured S Jeremy Fejedelem, whose brother plays for the Bengals as a back up safety ( another white DB who should be starting) would work out for Air Force during their pro day yesterday but there was no sight of him? Is it because of military duties the next few years or is he simply not interested in playing in the NFL?

    I don't think anyone here needs reminding but the hand times at the pro days are going to run faster than say the NFL Combine. And while the Combine times aren't full proof they are a better indicator of the 40 time. So what I try to do is land on a number that I should add to a pro day time. The problem is times can vary depending on the surfaces too because some schools have faster tracks than others.

    Even with those variables, not too mention the hand timers themselves, I think it is prudent to add around .05 to a 40 yard time. However in some cases a full .1 second added is more accurate. Often this happens with black heavy participant schools. But you have to land somewhere so .05 it is with me. In other words if a player runs a 4.51 on his pro day I would translate it into a 4.56 reading at the NFL Combine.

    The so called settled time for WR Dalton Schoen as mentioned above was 4.47. However there were readings as low as 4.44. Translated I am thinking he has 4.49 -4.51 speed. Which is the same speed of the number one rated WR in this draft class CJ Lamb. All in all very good NFL speed.

    But Schoen showed outstanding all around athletic ability too.. At a solid 6'1 206 he had a 35 inch vertical and an impressive 4.07 twenty yard shuttle. Bucky had mentioned above he averaged over 17 yards per catch in college. Watching him play one has to be impressed. His deep speed is evident and he looks smooth out there. He played for a run heavy team but still made clutch plays.

    In some ways he is similar to WR Cody Thompson who was just mentioned here in the NFL news section. Same size same chunky yardage average and similar outstanding shuttle times. The biggest difference is Schoen is a little faster. Cody at least got invited to the Combine before he was ignored. The NFL Combine selection committee ( the rat pack) once again screwed a worthy white skill player. To me Schoen is a draft caliber NFL player. Late rounds for sure but still deserving. And guess what? It would take a miracle for someone to draft him. At least if he went to the Combine there would me more hope for him.
     
  24. Leonardfan

    Leonardfan Hall of Famer

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    @Shadowlight - I can't find anything for Fejedelem either. It sounds like he did not work out from this article:
    https://www.koaa.com/sports/air-force-csu-pueblo-football-host-annual-pro-day

    I believe military service can be deferred for a pro football. The pattern is an obvious one though - hyping up black players from the service academies while whites are routinely ignored. Navy has churned out option quotabacks over the past few seasons who get alot of hype during the pre draft process. Malcolm Perry is this year's example - he received a combine invite - Keenan Reynolds enjoyed the pro black service academy treatment and is bouncing around the league waiting to unleash his untapped upside.

    Weston Steelhammer is probably the most recent example of a very good white service academy player getting the caste treatment from the NFL. Army does have a white LB draft eligible this year but he of course received no combine invite.

    The service academy situation is just another wrinkle in the all encompassing caste system.
     
  25. Johnny Tightlips

    Johnny Tightlips Guru

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    What did Joey Cardona do?
     

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