Pavlik vs. Taylor II: The Rematch

Maple Leaf · Feb 18, 2008

I have not seen the Pavlik/Taylor fight yet but the outcome was not surprising. In my case it was predictable and my prediction record here at Caste is now 9-1. From what I have read about the fight it seemed Taylor was more motivated early on in the fight but his usual stamina problems came back to haunt him. Pavlik, it seems, did what he always does, and used his giant jab to push his opponent back and he outworked him using well-timed combinations. I am glad the fight is over so that we can now enjoy watching Pavlik add more names to his resume and possibly start to become an icon in the culture of boxing.

Hockaday · Feb 18, 2008

This is one of the most pedantically idiotic threads I've ever seen. A troll couldn't have done a better job of deflecting attention away from another great victory by Kelly Pavlik. You don't knock it off I'm gonna reach over with my 70 inch wingspan and give you all a slap on the head. Enough already.

Sorry, Kelly.Edited by: Hockaday

Guest · Feb 18, 2008

I agree Hockaday, WTF is this OCD crap with a fighter's reach? Enough already! We should be celebrating Kelly's hard earned and well deserved victory over a good fighter that fought a great fight. I watched it for the second on my TVO. It was a lot closer than I thought. I had Kelly winning by one or two points. If they called it a draw it would not be an outrage.

Kelly is on his way to superstardom if he stays focused and improves. I think his head movement will have to get better. I see him cashing on Trinindad and KOing him. Against Abraham, that will be a tough fight. Looking forward to Wlad's fight this weekend and him consoladating the Heavyweight division.

ocaamikedm11 · Feb 18, 2008

Anyone know how many people bought this fight?

Van_Slyke_CF · Feb 18, 2008

I want to see Kelly fight Trinidad next, too. I don`t want to see him fight Duddy. An article on Yahoo yesterday describes Duddy as a "throwback."

Anyway, I still feel good about Kelly`s second win over Jermain Taylor, and look forward to Wlad`s fight against Ibragimov. A lotof good news forus at Caste Football, and we should be more focused on this than disputed definitions of "reach" about boxers.

Charles Martel · Feb 18, 2008

Van_Slyke_CF said:
A lotÃ‚Â of good news forÃ‚Â us at Caste Football, and we should be more focused on this than disputed definitions of "reach" about boxers.Ã‚Â Ã‚Â

I agree completely. I made this thread to discuss Pavlik vs. Taylor II and I didn't want to get into a discussion about reach either! But when JD074 responds to my posts as if I'm an idiot, I feel a need to defend myself.

Really, if he continues to do so, I'll just stop posting at this website, because like yourselves I come here to enjoy discussing the success of white boxers, and not engage is pointless arguments like that. Answering JD074's insults is not fun and wastes my time. If he wants a refund for his $10 membership fee, I'll send it to him.

I've had some enjoyable discussions about Pavlik's win at ESB and boxingscene without having to deal with anyone like JD074 trolling my posts.

Charles Martel · Feb 18, 2008

JD074 said:
Guys, I'm sorry for posting this after the Pavlik fight, but I have to set this guy straight.

JD1986 said:
No, BoxRec lists Williams as having an 82" reach and Quintana as having a 72" reach.

JD074 said:
No, that's wingspan. Nobody has 82" or 72" arms! Quintana has a 25" reach and Williams has a 25.5" reach. Didn't you see their stats before the fight? BoxRec uses the word "reach," but again, they're referring to wingspan. HBO measures their actual reach ("from the armpit to the end of the fist".)

Who's been dragging who down into an argument about semantics?

I'm NOT complimenting black athletes. I'm saying even some blacks even admit the advantage is longer arms and legs, rather than superior athleticism. A few like Kellerman, Atlas and yourself have been spreading the false belief that blacks are naturally more athletic, I'm saying it's not true!

And why did you post that article about Taylor winning the fight? Did you want to try to spoil our enjoyment of Pavlik's win?

Your insulting and aggressive arguing and your trolling my posts like this is not good for this website, JD074. Please, give it a rest. Try and understand the bigger picture.

Whites have advantages such as greater stamina, (stamina is important in running marathons, and in boxing it's an advantage too: see Maskaev vs. Rahman II, Pavlik vs. Taylor II, Povetkin vs. Chambers, etc. the white guy showed better stamina) while blacks with longer legs have an advantage in the 100 yard dash. Edited by: JD1986

JD074 · Feb 18, 2008

JD1986 said:
But when JD074 responds to my posts as if I'm an idiot, I feel a need to defend myself.

Actually, you were the one who instigated the insults, not me. Go back to Page 2. My initial posts about reach were not insulting at all. The closest I came to an insult was when I wrote, "Nope! Wrong again!" That's not that bad! However, in your response to that post, you wrote that I "really like black boxers," and you accused me of "trolling." Those statements are far more insulting.

Really, if he continues to do so, I'll just stop posting at this website, because like yourselves I come here to enjoy discussing the success of white boxers, and not engage is pointless arguments like that. Answering JD074's insults is not fun and wastes my time.

Hypocrite. You keep responding to my posts. In fact, your very next post, after this one, is a response to me!

If he wants a refund for his $10 membership fee, I'll send it to him.

The $10 was for the old site, I paid $25 for this site. (I also bought a T shirt, BTW.) But I definitely don't want your damn money!

JD074 · Feb 18, 2008

Ouch! If you're going to respond to specific statements, you need to learn how to do it right. I'll try to wade through this mess.

JD1986 said:
JD1986: *You were defending Williams, saying he doesn't have a reach advantage because you heard your friend Kellerman say so on HBO.

I was not defending Williams. My initial post was: Interestingly, he only had a 1/2 inch reach advantage over Quintana. He seems to have very broad shoulders, so perhaps that makes his wingspan seem more impressive than his actual reach. I also wrote: Really, it's Quintana who has the abnormally long reach for his height, not Williams. My other comments on Williams were merely references to an HBO statistic about him. That's it. That's all I've said about him. How can any of that be construed as "defending" Williams? You interpreted it as "defending" Williams because you already assumed that I "like black boxers." Which I don't, of course.

Max Kellerman did not give those statistics. Please, watch an HBO fight sometime. Pay close attention to the fighter profiles before the fight.

I say you shouldn't believe everything you hear on TV! We could see watching the fight that William's arms are longer than Quintana's...if you watched enough HBO boxing you would have learned by now to take everything they say with a grain of salt - they are human, they make mistakes sometimes.

You make it sound like it's merely an opinion. The color commentator- not Kellerman- was citing the measurements that they took for each fighter. Not an opinion. It's possible that these measurements are inaccurate, but it's also possible that the measurements that you gave are wrong as well!

JD1986: *My point was, blacks are not more athletic, they often just have longer arms and legs!

So what? An advantage is an advantage. I bet you think that white athletes are more intelligent. Isn't that an advantage? How about team work, work ethic, and unselfishness? Are those advantages? To say that blacks have longer arms and legs is to point to a physiological, genetic advantage. That's a big deal.

I believe you understand that, you're just trolling.

No. I'm defending myself against someone who has repeatedly accused me of not supporting white athletes and of liking black athletes. So, if anybody is a troll, it's you!

JD1986:* I'm NOT complimenting black athletes. I'm saying even some blacks even admit the advantage is longer arms and legs, rather than superior athleticism.

Yeah, saying that black athletes have a "natural," physiological, genetic advantage over white athletes is not a compliment at all!

A few like Kellerman, Atlas and yourself have been spreading the false belief that blacks are naturally more athletic, I'm saying it's not true!

When did I ever say, during any of our arguments, that blacks are more athletic than whites?! Tell me. Quote me. I really wanna know.

And why did you post that article about Taylor winning the fight? Did you want to try to spoil our enjoyment of Pavlik's win?

Mostly, I wanted to point out his biased use of statistics. I was also hoping that somebody who had watched the fight would respond, since I hadn't seen the fight. And I also thought that it was kind of amusing. Of course I didn't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of the victory.

JD1986* You're even trolling right here, in the last sentence, by twisting my words when you know full well what I'm saying! Whites have advantages such as greater stamina, (stamina is important in running marathons, and in boxing it's an advantage too: see Maskaev vs. Rahman II, Pavlik vs. Taylor II, Povetkin vs. Chambers, etc. the white guy showed better satmana) while blacks with longer legs have an advantage in the 100 yard dash.

I'm not twisting your words. I'm just being logical. You said that blacks have natural advantages. That necessarily means that whites must be at a disadvantage in that particular area. Period. It doesn't matter whether you believe that white athletes have advantages in other areas. You still claim that they are physiologically, genetically disadvantaged in a particular area. That's pretty insulting.

Kaptain · Feb 18, 2008

From reading the above armlength vs. wingspan arguement I have to conclude that Bart has the best understanding. Both are important. Only armlengths are given as measurements in boxing which can be misleading. Width's of the shoulders do count (in wingspan) as it adds to the distance your head (the opponents target) will be away from your fist - at least while standing somewhat cocked as most fighters do when throwing a jab. In fact nearly every punch at a distance is thrown from a cocked position in one form or another. Just my two cents. Hey isn't this thread about Pavlik and Tayor???

jaxvid · Feb 18, 2008

Anybody doing a round by round on JD074 vs. JD1986? I think they're about even through 10. I sure hope this fight is over soon.

White Shogun · Feb 18, 2008

jaxvid said:
Anybody doing a round by round on JD074 vs. JD1986? I think they're about even through 10. I sure hope this fight is over soon.

Way too much fisking for me. I dislike reading posts that are dissected line by line. I stopped watching the 'fight' mid-way through the match. It's the equivalent of watching John Ruiz.

Maybe these guys oughta take it 'outside,' i.e. to PM.

Don Wassall · Feb 18, 2008

jaxvid said:
Anybody doing a round by round on JD074 vs. JD1986? I think they're about even through 10. I sure hope this fight is over soon.

I'd like to see a truce called as well. I'm starting to think JD and JD are actually brothers who fight every time they get together at family reunions.

Seriously, you're both solid contributors who support white athletes. You bothadd a lot to the boxing forum. Neither can ever discredit the other because you're both true blue. How about a timeout?

jaxvid · Feb 18, 2008

Don Wassall said:
Seriously, you're both solid contributors who support white athletes.Ã‚Â You bothÃ‚Â add a lot to the boxing forum.Ã‚Â Neither can ever discredit the other because you're both true blue.Ã‚Â How about a timeout?

I second that!

Thrashen · Feb 18, 2008

Yes, please stop arguing about "reach" and other petty, non-Pavlik-Taylor related stuff. As Don said, you're obviously both devoted fans of white boxers...and now's a time of great celebration for this site!

Kelly Pavlik, along with the countless other white title holders and contenders, could finally be the generation that changes the caste-ignorance of the past 50 years of pro boxing. Let's focus on these amazing past 2 years for white boxing and forget our small differences of opinion.

Jimmy Chitwood · Feb 18, 2008

good call.

and as such, i wanted to offer my experience watching the Pavlik-Taylor fight at a sports bar in northwest Arkansas...

i was the ONLY person in the place rooting for Kelly. now, i'm sure at least part of it was due to Jermaine being from Arkansas, but the handful of blacks in attendance and a few wannabe gangsta whites made no bones about him "whipping the white boy this time."

being quite vocal throughout, i didn't hesitate to add my two cents to a black boy's comments afer the fight was over. he said something to the effect that "I'll never cheer for Taylor again after this, he is a disgrace! At least Rampage and Mayweather are still representing."

i pointed out to him that Calzaghe would be whipping Bernard Hopkins real soon, so he might as well start whining about that, too.

the look on his face at my comment was NOT a room-brightening smile.

he walked away real quick-like.

i don't think he expected a white man to be so, er, outspoken.

and there were quite a few white heads that took note, as well... though who knows what they were thinking, because they were too intimidated by the blacks in the room to say anything.

JD074 · Feb 18, 2008

I have no problem with a truce/ timeout, but he has to stop accusing me of being anti-white and pro-black. I'm not backing down from that. I don't care about all that reach sh*t. That's not the issue. That was just us finding a reason to argue because we don't like each other.

jaxvid said:
Anybody doing a round by round on JD074 vs. JD1986? I think they're about even through 10.

No way!! I hope you're just being diplomatic.

I sure hope this fight is over soon.

It's definitely winding down. We had another argument, and that one's already done.

JD074 · Feb 18, 2008

White Shogun said:
Way too much fisking for me. I dislike reading posts that are dissected line by line.

But Shogun, at least I'm good at it! Did you see that mess he made of it?!

jaxvid · Feb 18, 2008

JD074 said:
White Shogun said:

Way too much fisking for me. I dislike reading posts that are dissected line by line.

Click to expand...

But Shogun, at least I'm good at it! Did you see that mess he made of it?!

Fisking! Isn't that about the most dirty sounding non-obscene word ever?

And JD074 you are good at it, I can never get all of that html straight.

Bart · Feb 18, 2008

Maple Leaf said:
wide shoulders diminish the reach of the power arm, that is, the power arm is actually further away with a wide shouldered fighter!

I may be in the minority, but find the discussion of reach pretty interesting. Good post Maple Leaf,per usual, but I would have to disagree with your statement above. It also affords me the opportunity to post one of my all-time favoritepics. Rocky Marciano was said to have fairly short arms, but when throwing his right hand he generated lots of power by shifting his hips and torquing his upper torso, maximizinghis punching power.Judging from the photo, it would appear that a fighter having broad shoulders is not put at a disadvantage.Seems to me hisfist would be closer to the target, not further away.

moose · Feb 18, 2008

why dont ya"ll stop all this nonsense and get a haircut

Charles Martel · Feb 18, 2008

Don Wassall said:
jaxvid said:

Anybody doing a round by round on JD074 vs. JD1986? I think they're about even through 10. I sure hope this fight is over soon.

Click to expand...

I'd like to see a truce called as well.Ã‚Â I'm starting to think JD and JD are actually brothers who fight every time they get together at family reunions.Ã‚Â

Seriously, you're both solid contributors who support white athletes.Ã‚Â You bothÃ‚Â add a lot to the boxing forum.Ã‚Â Neither can ever discredit the other because you're both true blue.Ã‚Â How about a timeout?

I agree. I will make no more responses to him, other than replying through PMs because this kind of argument is not good for the website.

Maple Leaf · Feb 19, 2008

Bart said:
Maple Leaf said:

Ã‚Â Ã‚Â wide shoulders diminish the reach of the power arm, that is, the power arm is actually further away with a wide shouldered fighter!Ã‚Â Ã‚Â

Click to expand...

I may be in the minority, but find the discussion of reach pretty interesting.Ã‚Â Good post Maple Leaf,Ã‚Â per usual, but I would have to disagree with your statement above.Ã‚Â It also affords me the opportunity to post one of my all-time favoriteÃ‚Â pics.Ã‚Â Rocky Marciano was said to have fairly short arms, but when throwing his right hand he generated lots of power by shifting his hips and torquing his upper torso, maximizingÃ‚Â his punching power.Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Judging from the photo, it would appear that a fighter having broad shoulders is not put at a disadvantage.Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Seems to me hisÃ‚Â fist would be closer to the target, not further away.Ã‚Â

style="WIDTH: 445px; HEIGHT: 280px" height=292 src="http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTbx6DA7pHkNIAXWSjzbkF/SIG= 1354ejrdv/EXP=1203459331/**http%3A//www.insidefighting.com/i mages/photos/Boxing/marciano/marciano_walcott2.jpg" width=445>[/QUOTE]

Hello Bart:

O.K.,I'll try and explain my point of view this way about shoulders and reach:

What I am trying to show here is how wider shoulders actually diminish reach as I stated in an earlier post but did not have the time to explain.

Picture an isoceles triangle made with a man's arms as the two congruent sides and the distance from shoulder to shoulder as the base. Where the two fists meet when the arms are extended is the apex and the middle of the chest is the centre of the base. Now enter some numbers. We can use any numbers but we'll use sigle digit numbers to make it easy. Let the arm length equal 8 and the base (shoulder to shoulder) equal 6. To find the height of this triangle -that is the distance from the centre of the base to the apex- we add the square of a side (8x8=64) with the square of half of the base (3x3=9) and we get 73 which we take the sqare root of and we get 8.5. Therefore, the height of the triangle is 8.5 which is the point of contact if a fighter was standing directly in front of his opponent.

But what happens when the base is made bigger (by wider shoulders)? If we inserted a 7 into the base, but did not legthen the side (the arms) ,and used the same formula, the height would change to 8.7! Therefore, the distance from the centre of the base would be longer and the reach would diminish by 0.2!

Certainly fighters do not stand square to their opponents but reach is calculated before the fight and is just a static number. Reach is considered irrespective to a fighter's style or technique.

From this I have to conclude that arm length is the true measurement of a fighters' reach. However, beware of cheats as measurements can be tricky! If anyone sees this issue completely different I am reading.

jaxvid · Feb 19, 2008

I would disagree with your take on it as follows.

Your formula for an isoceles triangle is correct but I see it more as a right triangle with the arm throwing the punch the upright leg of the triangle and the trunk area as the base of the triangle making a 90* right triangle. Increasing the base neither adds or subtracts to the leg (just the hypotenuse-which is not an issue).

Also since the trunk is generally turned somewhat when throwing a punch then that distance can be added to the length of the "reach". I think arm length alone is important but chest length can also add to it somewhat.

Bart · Feb 19, 2008

Maple leaf, thanks for taking the time to present your triangle explanation.It was a little bit fuzzy in my mind, I must admit. What is the old saying about a picture being worth a thousand words? Jaxvid's explanation using a right angle was also helpful to my understanding. And, as he mentioned, the distance of the reach can beextended by turning the trunk. To illustrate this point, imagine a fighter with a four foot wide shoulder span.

If his arms were only a foot long, he could stand two feet away from his opponent, and miss him by a foot. However, if he turned his shoulders, twisting from the waist, while keepinghis arms down at his sides, he'd still be able to hit his opponent in the jaw -- using only his deltoids. This conversation has been invaluable to the scientific boxing community, I'm sure.

Pavlik vs. Taylor II: The Rematch

Mentor

Guru

Guest

Guest

Mentor

Mentor

Hall of Famer

Hall of Famer

Master

Master

Master

Hall of Famer

Hall of Famer

Administrator

Hall of Famer

Hall of Famer

Hall of Famer

Master

Master

Hall of Famer

Hall of Famer

Guru

Hall of Famer

Mentor

Hall of Famer

Hall of Famer