FootballDad said:
I admire folks like Kaptain who have chosen to enter the difficult field of edumencating our nation's youts. And I can appreciate his naturally defensive position when teachers are "the face" of the demonstrations in Wisconsin, and Kaptain defends the profession. However, the fact remains that the government should not be the arbiter and authority in the teaching profession to begin with. Until the early 19th century, education was primarily a private sector matter. The reasons for establishing government "first" education in the late 18th, early 19th century are sordid indeed, and have a great deal to do with the mess we are in from a global perspective.
<div>In regards to "public sector unions" in particular, they should not exist in the first place, as the party on the "hook" for the payment of the negotiated collective bargaining is not at the table during the negotiations. When public sector union bosses negotiate deals with their bought-and-paid-for politicians, it's not exactly "collective bargaining".</div>
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<div>Now on to some quotes from a former prominent politician, that I agree with on very few (if any, I can think of) issues. I found these to be fascinating, especially considering the source:</div>
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<FONT face=Arial>"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people." </font><FONT face=Arial>"The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters. Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees." </font></div>
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<div><FONT face=Arial>Can any of you guess who this icon-of-the-left was?</font></div>
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<div><FONT face=Arial>* edited to eliminate embarrassing typos
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That's extremely philisophical and frankly beyond the scope of this much simplier discussion. I would guess that you and many or maybe most castefootballers don't believe in various things like income tax, governtment postal service, federal reserve notes (dollars), usuary etc. But you all pay taxes, pick-up your mail, get paid in Jew-money, and occasionally have to take out a loan. I'm not going to harp on you for doing such - it would be silly. The question is much simplier - are public school teachers salaries/benefits lavish and out of line?
Collective bargaining for higer wages for teachers is usually a much harder sell than in collective bargaining at a private sector company. The stats bare that out. Teachers in my district since 1990 have had increases in pay that amount to less than have of the government inflation rate. During that same period, the private sector has enjoyed 5x the pay increases. There really is no comparison. When a teacher bargains for a significantly higher wages, it usually means you have to pass a bond referendum through the voting public - most of which don't have children in school. That's a much tougher sell IMO and it's real Democracy.
Congratulations, we are now arguing about which working person can and can not have collective bargaining. Can they divide us anymore easily? Ninny nannying over the minutous details.
BTW, I was union way before I became a teacher. In the 1980's you may remember the Hormel strikes in Austin, MN. Though I had no family member that had a dog in the fight, I could see the writing on the wall. I supported the union as a teenager. The reason is not unlike today's reason - I saw that the company was clearly under-cutting workers wages using illegal aliens of destructive foreign race. That plan has been carried out to the tee since. Unfortunetly they played white warfare back then too and the union lost favor with other jealous locals who actually thought meat-packers (a grueling job) were over-paid. They fell for it to the demise of everybody. Now the once all-white town is a Mexican cesspool. Congratulations, you broke the union while the dirty corporation got away with violating the most precious of our countries laws. The song remains the same.
When I became a teacher about a decade later, union and non-union was not really an issue for me. Becoming a teacher was somewhat of a snap decision after graduating with a bachelor of science and looking to Master's program. My first job teaching was as a non-union teacher at private for profit school. They paid crap. In my fourth year I earned 27,000 for year-round teaching. They could care less who they hired as long as they breathed and didn't mention the word union. The good teachers/staff would always eventually leave and teach somewhere else or find a more profitable career. The school eventually went in shambles and ran to the union to save the school. The place is thriving now.
As you can see, my position on unions has nothing to do with my own interests. It's been a life long process of observing society. I've been planning to leave teaching already myself. I almost welcome a pay reduction as a reason to finally quit. My wife already has quit (last year) and is making the same money running her own sales business. Soon she will make more than me and she doesn't even work that hard. She will never go back to teaching and she's had many many offers.
What fires me up is not my interests, but that I have a lot more knowledge on the issue than others. I know my own salary and benefits. Though I asked repeatedly, nobody else could supply the benefits breakdown. I spoon-fed it anyway. It didn't make a difference. I know how hard teaching is and how under-appreciated they are. I get upset when others make uninformed judgements. I have always thought castefootball had the smartest most informed folks of any discussion forum I've seen. That idea has been dealt a blow with this issue. I guess I thought we were more than just Red vs. Blue.
