Van_Slyke_CF
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The Cowboys were a joke tonight. The Giants played some sloppy football too. Glad to see Jerry Jones's team drop to 1-5.
2010 Week 7
- Thread starter ToughJ.Riggins
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Van_Slyke_CF
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backrow said:
You got that right. Hopefully Peterson will develop a case of fumbleitis again soon or get some nagging injury that gives Gerhart a chance to play regularly the second half of the season. Edited by: Van_Slyke_CF
Peterson is back to looking like he did his rookie season, namely the best running back in the league. If the Vikings fall out of playoff contention Gerhart might start to get the same amount of touches Chester Taylor used to, but otherwise, barring an injury to Peterson, Toby will probably continue to be used as he was last night for the rest of the season. He just needs to keep running hard and hope his racial apprenticeship isn't too long (or even a permanent one).
I agree, Don. AP has looked really good this year. He's running really hard, and it appears his fumblitis has subsided. I'm happy for him. With that said, Toby had some significant playing time last night in my opinion. He looked good when he was out there, and I think he's shown he can really play well at the NFL level. Personally, I would like to see Toby get at least 2x the action he is getting now, even with AP on the rampage this year. This would extend AP's career and make both T-train and AP fresher if the Vikings happen to make the playoffs. That's not likely if Number 4 is out and T.J. is in. Meanwhile, Rosenfels holds a clipboard on the Giants sidelines..... Ugh!
In any case, go Toby!!!
In any case, go Toby!!!
Van_Slyke_CF
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"He just needs to keep running hard and hope his racial apprenticeship isn't too long (or even a permanent one)."
There's always a chance in a year or two to move to a more white-friendly team for RBs, as with Hillis in Cleveland.
There's always a chance in a year or two to move to a more white-friendly team for RBs, as with Hillis in Cleveland.
MostDangerous
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Toby ran well when he got the chance. The sad thing is that right now the Vikings aren't winning games so he's not getting more touches to close out games. He also isn't a great type of runner for third downs (he's more physical, which is good for pass protection but he's not a great receiving threat out of the backfield) unless it's third and short, but the Vikings use Peterson for that. I am not diminishing Toby's skills at all, and I'm not saying he can't catch or run routes (he can), but we have to face the facts and he's not a Chester Taylor type of elusive back like the Vikings had last year which is why he isn't used as much as Taylor was on third downs.
I think that Toby will need to either go to a different team or become better at pass protection to get on the field on third downs. I was very impressed with his blocking on Sunday night, which is good news and it means he can be on the field in more third down situations. He did drop a (poorly thrown) pass, but hopefully he'll keep working on his hands and get the coaches confident in him.
I'd rather see Gerhart on a different team, but starting out as a backup may be a blessing in disguise. He had a huge year at Stanford and had a ton of carries. A few years off to get some of the wear and tear off and to rest may do him well and help give him a longer career.
I think that Toby will need to either go to a different team or become better at pass protection to get on the field on third downs. I was very impressed with his blocking on Sunday night, which is good news and it means he can be on the field in more third down situations. He did drop a (poorly thrown) pass, but hopefully he'll keep working on his hands and get the coaches confident in him.
I'd rather see Gerhart on a different team, but starting out as a backup may be a blessing in disguise. He had a huge year at Stanford and had a ton of carries. A few years off to get some of the wear and tear off and to rest may do him well and help give him a longer career.
Van_Slyke_CF said:
I think Gerhart still has a decent chance of being a starter in the NFL, whether it's with Minnesota or another team. It just may not befor a season or two or three oreven four. A year ago I don't think any of us thought Peyton Hillis was going to end up being a featured back in the NFL after the way he was treated in 2009, much less Danny Woodhead or John Kuhn. Toby looked better last night than he had all season and preseason, so he just needs to keep being productive when he sees the field and hopefully his time will come.
MostDangerous said:
You must have not seen him at Stanford, the few times he caught the ball out the backfield were usually 20+ yard plays, as for not being good on 3rd down, he can pass block and he converted quite a few 3rd and longs in college. He is more elusive than you give credit for. His initial burst is on the same level as Peterson, meaning in the 10 to 20 yard range. Peterson has more top end speed though. And as for he's not getting carries to close out games because they aren't winning, they drafted him to be more than a guy to close out games. He is supposed to lengthen Peterson's career. You don't draft a guy in the 2nd to close out games or wait a few years to try. 1st and 2nd rounders are supposed to contribute right away. A few years and he has a chance of winding up like Hester, forgotten except a few carries. All the criticism Hester got for not going after that pass that he dropped this week, I think what was going through his head was "there goes my chance to get any type of passes or carries this season" Hopefully I am wrong and he winds up like Hillis. Hillis has to keep his pace up to open the doors up for more white backs to get chances, so far its working this season. Gerhart is stuck behind a great back, but he should at least get 10 touches a game this season. He is a tough dude that played two sports in college, I doubt that he needs several years to rest from one season.
Edited by: snow
Gerhart looked tentative and nervous in preseason and earlier in the regular season games. This can be attributed to his "teammates" tackling him as hard as they could from the first day of training camp (and likely talking a lot of racist smack to him), andToby getting no support from "Chilly" the mangina or anyone else it appears. Gerhart's hard-running style is not dissimilar to Peterson's, so hopefully he's relaxing now and it will continue to show when he plays. Also, he could have been a pro baseball player, so there's no question he'll be an outstanding receiver out of the backfield. It's also possible that Hillis's success might be taking some of the pressure off of Toby to be an instant star at a position that has been taboo for Whites to play for a quarter century until this season.Edited by: Don Wassall
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
Don Wassall said:
I'm happy he didn't play pro baseball. We need all the help we can get at positions like wide receiver and running back. I also wish Jeff Samardzija had played pro football instead of baseball.
mick phrom philly
Newbie
Don Wassall said:
This was discussed on another thread, but Toby should have thrown some fists and feet right fromthe start during training camp when he was targeted by those "teammates", much like Riley Cooper did with the Eagles. His disadvantage is that he likely didn't have to deal with the racial abusewhile at Stanford (at least from teammates), and it seems he wasn't prepared, or maybe isn't temperamentally suited to retaliate tosuch treatment.
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
Good point Mick. I'm sure Gerhart didn't have any racism directed at him at Stanford. The team has lots of white players and the black players on the team aren't the typical thugs you see in the SEC.
I'm sure Cooper was put through hell, especially considering he played for Florida. Cooper is used to the type this type of treatment by the black players. I'm sure there have been many times this season where racial slurs against white players were used. The white players need to open their mouths and expose what is taking place.
Edited by: whiteathlete33
I'm sure Cooper was put through hell, especially considering he played for Florida. Cooper is used to the type this type of treatment by the black players. I'm sure there have been many times this season where racial slurs against white players were used. The white players need to open their mouths and expose what is taking place.
Edited by: whiteathlete33
Truthteller
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whiteathlete33 said:
Ricky Proehl spoke out againstthe racial taunting he receivedyears ago in SI. The story was also told of how a low level black assistant coach at Tennessee was laughed at by his white superiors atUT when they found out Proehl was white. They told him, back in the 1980's, not torecruit white WR's anymore, if he wanted to stay employed.
Don Beebe has also spoke out against the caste system a million times. Particularly since he retired and became a high school coach. I'm sure there have been others, too. This really doesn't seem to do any good, anyway.
By the way, what are Proehl and Beebe up to? I think Proehl runs a landscaping business and trains WR for agents for extra money -- he worked with Matt Jones in 2009. Beebe coaches at a swanky suburban high school, last time I checked,and runs a speed school. Even though this not hard labor, these men toil and sweat for their cash.
On the other hand, ever notice how well rewarded guys like Steve Tasker, Jason Sehorn, Tom Waddle and Uncle Chris (from NBC)are by the "system"? These clowns all have cushy, high-payingjobs as media pundits and constantly go on record claiming "race never matters in the NFL...It's all about talent"! Edited by: Truthteller
whiteathlete33
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Truthteller said:
MostDangerous
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The bolded part is all you need to look at right here. He didn't catch a ton of passes at Stanford. I know he played baseball, so I'm not knocking his skills, but Gerhart simply wasn't used as a pass catching back at Stanford, so there's no reasonable expectation for him to do it in the pros.snow said:
PhillyBirds
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Toby tallied a total of 39 receptions in four years at Stanford, for a total of 395 yards, for a respectable average of 10.1 yards per reception.
SOURCE
I have no idea of the typical sample size of a college running back, in terms of receptions. Just supplying some numbers to hopefully clear things up for people.
However, last year he had 11 receptions for 157 yards, 14.3 yards per reception. That seems pretty good to me, albeit in a limited sample.
SOURCE
I have no idea of the typical sample size of a college running back, in terms of receptions. Just supplying some numbers to hopefully clear things up for people.
However, last year he had 11 receptions for 157 yards, 14.3 yards per reception. That seems pretty good to me, albeit in a limited sample.
Stanford didn't run that type of offense last year, they rarely threw to any of the backs, if they passed it was usually downfield. Just because he wasn't used that way in college doesn't mean he shouldn't be used in the pros. You say you are not knocking his skills, but everything you have said it sounds like you are. MostDangerous, what I got from your posts is that you think he is a short yardage "grind it out" powerback with little elusiveness, that is only good to run the clock out, and that he can't carry the load of being a workhorse and needs a few years off. The only praise you gave him was his blocking and him being physical. His hands are fine, they threw a ton of passes to him in preseason, even when there were several linebackers around and there was no place to go, basically threw to him just to see if he could catch, and he did fine. Chester Taylor had 42 receptions in college, using your logic, he should have never been a pass catching back. Gerhart has a similar skillset as Peterson with a little less top end speed.
Yes Gerhart had less than most backs in college, but what does the typical back get in a college season, 20 to 30? not that much more when you count the amount of running plays he ran, that would have been overload, he already had 350 plays in a 13 game season, adding 20 or 30 receptions to that would have been close to 400 plays, most backs don't even get that in a 16 game season.
Edited by: snow
Yes Gerhart had less than most backs in college, but what does the typical back get in a college season, 20 to 30? not that much more when you count the amount of running plays he ran, that would have been overload, he already had 350 plays in a 13 game season, adding 20 or 30 receptions to that would have been close to 400 plays, most backs don't even get that in a 16 game season.
Edited by: snow
MostDangerous said:
Umm ... No it's not all we need to know. We could also know that Chester Taylor caught about the same amount of passes in college. It is relevant and important to know that Gerhart played outfield in Division I baseball and that his althletic accomplishments far outweigh the rather mediocre Chester Taylor. I'm so sick and tired of the Chester Taylor worshipping I could puke. What exactly has Chester done with Chicago? In high school? In college? What has he done that elevates him above Gerhart? As if being a "elusive type" scat back always makes for a better third down back. Tell it to Tom Rathman. Plenty of bigger backs are used as recievers out of the backfield. The Taylor-Gerhart comparison is absolutely ridiculous as is the assertion that Gerhart couldn't possibly catch a football out of the backfield.
The question is: why would the Vikings waste a 2nd round draft pick on someone they viewed as merely a third down back? Especially when he wasn't used much as a receiver in college?
Typically, teams expect second round picks to become starters, and almost always give them a chance to do that. Unless you are Brian Leonard, Jacob Hester or Toby Gerhart.
It's amazing how things work out in the NFL; while the top RB in college last season wastes away in Minnesota, unable even to secure the precious third down role that future HOFer Chester Taylor had, "troubled" LaGarrette Blount is now apparently the starting RB for the Bucs. Undrafted rookie becomes a starter. Second round pick doesn't get any playing time.
But at least it's better than the NBA.
Typically, teams expect second round picks to become starters, and almost always give them a chance to do that. Unless you are Brian Leonard, Jacob Hester or Toby Gerhart.
It's amazing how things work out in the NFL; while the top RB in college last season wastes away in Minnesota, unable even to secure the precious third down role that future HOFer Chester Taylor had, "troubled" LaGarrette Blount is now apparently the starting RB for the Bucs. Undrafted rookie becomes a starter. Second round pick doesn't get any playing time.
But at least it's better than the NBA.
whiteathlete33
Hall of Famer
bigunreal said:
I mentioned before the season started the Blount would eventually become a starter. No one believed me. Well now it's become a fact due to the extremely inefficient Cadillac Williams. He's been a starter for many years despite mediocre production and now he's being replaced with a slow, undrafted rookie. Don't you just love it???
Edited by: whiteathlete33
What the hell is the point of even following the NFL anymore? I gave up on basketball about six or seven years ago. Now all I care about football is to come on here, and see about Hillis, or Woodhead. Maybe try to find some highlights on the computer. I cant even stand to watch a whole half of anNFL game anymore. Its just garbage football. I was watching highlights from the 50s, and 60s last night. Now THAT was football. Linemen running hard downfield making 2, and 3 blocks on the same play. Running with the RB 50-60 yards downfield making sweet blocks. These fat chumps on the line today are NOT athletes. Just giant guys holding each other. Plus every otherpart of the game was more crisp, and just better. The NFL is trash. I think bigunreal is on point with his posts. Its deeper than many folks want to believe. I dont see any reason to have hope in NFL.
whiteathlete33
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I think we get your frustration, Wolfman. I don't watch much football anymore except if white friendly teams such as the Colts or Packers are playing. Every year the play in the league gets worse and worse. I have to say, this season is a big better than others. We had the most white receivers drafted in a long time, white linebackers have made a comeback, Hillis is a starter and Woodhead is pretty much a starter as well, and guys like Collie have flashed incredible potential. If things keep on improving slightly every season I'll show more interest.
MostDangerous
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11 catches is about one a game. That's not very many.PhillyBirds said:
Plus, I'd rather Toby stick to being known as a rushing back rather than a "jack-of-all-trades" guy like Brian Leonard. The last thing you want is a guy stuck in a "situational" role like him.
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