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Posted: 04 June 2005 at 6:49pm |
Originally posted by surfsider
What you say is all true but these black sprinters you cite were being beaten at least sometimes by white sprinters. I never said the black sprinter came from nowhere, my question is why the white sprinter went to nowhere. |
Mel Patton, Frank Wykoff,Charley Paddock and Payton Jordan all ran at USC. Enter Lennox Miller, Don Quarrie, James Sanford and Clancy Edwards.
Hal Davis went to Cal. Enter Leamon King and Eddie Hart.
Bobby Morrow went to Abilene Christian. Enter Mark Witherspoon and Micky Grimes.
Once black athletes from the carib islands began running at US Universities in bunchs. That hurt any chance a so so white sprinter had.
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JD074
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Posted: 04 June 2005 at 6:55pm |
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Tell me why has Nigeria had a few sub10.00 sprinters while
"white" Europe has not?
"White" Europe, yeah, that's funny. European countries like
Britain and France are even more liberal than America... if
that's possible.
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Posted: 04 June 2005 at 7:01pm |
Originally posted by JD074
Tell me why has Nigeria had a few sub10.00 sprinters while "white" Europe has not?
"White" Europe, yeah, that's funny. European countries like Britain and France are even more liberal than America... if that's possible. |
The fastest Canadians have been black.
The fastest Brits have been black.
The faatest Frenchman have been black.
The fastest Americans have been black.
If blacks ran for Russia, China, Poland or Germany they would be the fastest in the land. Why struggle with this? It's so plain it's almost painful. Blacks can outrun whites.....period!
Edited by Brutal
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bigman
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Posted: 04 June 2005 at 8:18pm |
for the record.. Morrow's Melbourne 10.5 was run on the slowest 100m surface of any olympics in 56 and into a wind... Morrow was a WR holder. No one but Brutal would favor Golliday (great though he was) over Morrow that year. Morrow was the dominant sprinter in the world that year and he had no equal. A better representation of his dominance was his WR 200 time later in the games in better weather conditions at Melbourne. Again no one was close that year, It would not be until Carl Lewis that an American would win the holy grail of an OLY sprint double.
As for the 10.4 reference of brutal, the electronic timing at Rome was 10.3 on dirt for Hary as well as the past his prime (by the standards of the era) but still fast closing Sime. Comparing their times with an all time great Hayes is unremarkable.. should we view Eddie Tolan as an unathletic troll from an inferior race because he did not measure up to Hayes?.. not.
They were all great sprinters by any standards.... if Brutal's extreme notion of racial differentiation is accepted then it would logically produce a view among coaches and media alike to self enforce this belief system. The belief like a religous belief rather than reflecting reality, begins to shape and domintate it. Soon the belief IS the ONLY reality.
Just another anecdote. Texas HS 110mHH final first and second place both under 14.00, both great athletes and mutieventers... both will be recruited to Univ. of Texas...one as an RB the other as a Punter.....
Edited by bigman
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white lightning
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Posted: 04 June 2005 at 9:12pm |
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There is nothing that can change Brutal's mind.He is set
in his ways like most people in the U.S. So it won't
matter when Wariner breaks MJ's World Record!Coach Clyde
Hart who has coached for around 40 years has said over
and over that there is no advantage.Hart used to be a
sprinter and is now the best coach in the business for
the 400 meters.He coached MJ and now coaches Wariner.He
has said that skin color has nothing to do with it.So
I guess he is wrong Brutal.Maybe you should tell him
that yourself.He has said on many occasions that white
kids are discouraged.With more Wariner's and Rocks,you
will see a changing of the guard.No one is taking away
from the black sprinters but only we know there is more
to the truth.Do you honestly belive that thousands of
kids couldn't be studs out of a country that is 70%
white?We need more kids running track to get a better
picture here.The same goes for football and basketball.
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bigman
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Posted: 04 June 2005 at 11:56pm |
there was from the late 60s into the 70s the begining of an era of massive recruitment and encouragement of black athletes. This was much overdue and perhaps it was the begining of a caste system as Don has implied... do kids begin to see themselves in terms of their race in a new way that in the end much too much like the old way. Where blacks were caste out and whites in.
Now we have in brutals thinking the perfectly logical display of a belief systems that so shapes anyones perspective on reality that if honestly held by coaches would certainly lead them to absolutely NOT to recruit whites for certain positions. And it would make perfect sense.. Why would you ever recruit someone to be a CB if they are apriori genetically of an inferior race for that position.. likewise for RB... it is a no brainer...
A coach that so believed would naturally send his recruiters to those areas that had large numbers of black HS's. You would ignore any kids that did not match the right profile. It would make recruiting much easier and your template for you perception of success to require very little change. This would allow you to have a framework for recruiting that was much easier to implement. Send your recruiters to the same places year afeter year to get the same perceived type of talent that you are now used to using.
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Joe Don Looney
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 1:23am |
Originally posted by Brutal
Originally posted by JD074
Tell me why has Nigeria had a few sub10.00 sprinters while "white" Europe has not?
"White" Europe, yeah, that's funny. European countries like Britain and France are even more liberal than America... if that's possible. |
The fastest Canadians have been black.
The fastest Brits have been black. |
Allan Wells of Scotland was the fastest Brit in around 1980 and he was a White man.
| The faatest Frenchman have been black. |
And yet White Frenchman Guy Drut won th olympic gold in the 110m hurdles in 1976.
| The fastest Americans have been black.
If blacks ran for Russia, China, Poland or Germany they would be the fastest in the land. |
That's not fully true. I posted on the first page of this thread
which you ignored about successful Chinese sprinter/hurdlers. They were
beating the best blacks from around the world.
| Why struggle with this? It's so plain it's almost painful. Blacks can outrun whites.....period! |
That is not categorically true.
A White woman won the olympic gold in the 100m at the 2004 olympics, beating all her black challengers.
White men won gold at the 400m and the 800m at the 2004 olympics, beating all their black challengers.
Why do you struggle with this unpleasant facts?
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surfsider
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 1:44am |
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Again, I agree that blacks might possess an advantage and the influx of blacks would disadvantage white sprinters on the whole(the so-so white sprinter) but that doesn't explain the disappearance of great white sprinters. You seem to be implying that fellows like Sime and Morrow weren't exceptional when in fact they were amongst or were the best in the world. Black sprinting talent was well established before Morrow came along yet he was the Olympic champion. You seem to feel that a white being competitive in sprinting would be like a tiny nation of whites like Lithuania beating a team of black professionals from America in basketball...
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 5:40am |
Originally posted by Joe Don Looney
Originally posted by Brutal
Originally posted by JD074
Tell me why has Nigeria had a few sub10.00 sprinters while "white" Europe has not?
"White" Europe, yeah, that's funny. European countries like Britain and France are even more liberal than America... if that's possible. |
The fastest Canadians have been black.
The fastest Brits have been black. |
Allan Wells of Scotland was the fastest Brit in around 1980 and he was a White man.
| The faatest Frenchman have been black. |
And yet White Frenchman Guy Drut won th olympic gold in the 110m hurdles in 1976.
| The fastest Americans have been black.
If blacks ran for Russia, China, Poland or Germany they would be the fastest in the land. |
That's not fully true. I posted on the first page of this thread which you ignored about successful Chinese sprinter/hurdlers. They were beating the best blacks from around the world.
| Why struggle with this? It's so plain it's almost painful. Blacks can outrun whites.....period! |
That is not categorically true.
A White woman won the olympic gold in the 100m at the 2004 olympics, beating all her black challengers.
White men won gold at the 400m and the 800m at the 2004 olympics, beating all their black challengers.
Why do you struggle with this unpleasant facts?
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Hahahaha!!!!.......you're killin' me man.
Dude I'm not talking about "one" race or Olympics here. I'm talking about "history". China has had how many great speedsters over the years? Guy Drut....hahahaha!!! Guy Drut and who? I'm talking about the "big picture" not who won "one" Olympics.
Go to any all time list and look at the top 100 performances in the ....
110hh
100
200
400
long jump
It won't take you long to notice on all those lists 95% of those listed are black...THAT'S! what I'm talking about not..."yeah well a Chinaman won the 110's"..............hahaha!!!!!! So tell me how many other Chinamen have done that?
I know a guy who has a pitbull who wouldn't harm a flea. Does that mean pitbulls aren't vicious? Come on man........geesh!
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white lightning
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 6:43am |
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So what would you do if the Chinese start to excel in
the sprints?What if they dominate the sprints?What if
a white man breaks Tim Montgomery's World Record in the
100 Meters?Is it possible?Hell yeah it is!Trust me,the
advantage is not near what you think it is.Give some
of these kids a chance before you think that they suck
just because they are the same as you.What if Wariner
listened to Entine?Think about it!!
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 7:16am |
Originally posted by white lightning
So what would you do if the Chinese start to excel in the sprints?What if they dominate the sprints?What if a white man breaks Tim Montgomery's World Record in the 100 Meters?Is it possible?Hell yeah it is!Trust me,the advantage is not near what you think it is.Give some of these kids a chance before you think that they suck just because they are the same as you.What if Wariner listened to Entine?Think about it!! |
When a white man breaks Monty's WR iI will be here with an apology. When the Chinese start dominating world class sprinting I will be here with an apology. Until that happens I'm going with the realities of the current situation. That current situation has black sprinters dominating the world of speed. A world they have dominated for about 50 years now. If it changes I wil then deal with that current reality.......ok?
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bigman
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 11:14am |
Brutal, it is exactly your extreme view of racial typing that if believed by the culture at large would naturally create a caste system. You see it as proper and natural and good.. some here would see it as nefarious and discriminatory.
Brutal if you are right to the degree you specify here, if there are no other reasons than biology for the complete dominance of speed positions then it would properly create a caste system where coaches rightly perceive where the talent is and go and get it and the best coaches would get the best black athletes and they would advance and develop to a level far beyond what the difference in their talent level was from those that were not recruited.
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 11:20am |
Originally posted by bigman
Brutal, it is exactly your extreme view of racial typing that if believed by the culture at large would naturally create a caste system. You see it as proper and natural and good.. some here would see it as nefarious and discriminatory.
Brutal if you are right to the degree you specify here, if there are no other reasons than biology for the complete dominance of speed positions then it would properly create a caste system where coaches rightly perceive where the talent is and go and get it and the best coaches would get the best black athletes and they would advance and develop to a level far beyond what the difference in their talent level was from those that were not recruited.
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Who do we blame for this situation? Could it be the inferior white athlete? While blacks were winning Oly medals and racing a 101 yards on the kickoff where was whitey? When white countries like Canada and Great Britian have to rely on their black mercenaries to run because they have no fast whites...mmmm?
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bigman
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 12:04pm |
I blame unthoughtful and myopic people in general.... I dont see them as nefarious but the belief system is in place ... Im simply asking you to consider that in these areas it is very possible that the total dominance that we see everywhere from the 100m to the CB position in football my very weill be more due to the belief in black superiority than it is in the actual superiority. The evaporation of white sprinters and white sprint performances is largely due to the fact that they are not developed. Not every 22flat 200 meter kid is incapable of progessing to sub 20flat.... but the 20.6 kid will get the nod.... when it is a matter of fact that some kids at 22flat have more potential for sub20 than many 20.6... the same goes for the 10.7 kid vice the 10.3 kid... kids develop at very different rates...
Nevertheless you are right in one thing.. until the performances of white kids returns to what it once was ... there can only be speculation and no certain grounds for any other belief system to dominate other than the caste system that shapes your perception and that you reinforce....
Edited by bigman
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 12:13pm |
Originally posted by bigman
I blame unthoughtful and myopic people in general.... I dont see them as nefarious but the belief system is in place ... Im simply asking you to consider that in these areas it is very possible that the total dominance that we see everywhere from the 100m to the CB position in football my very weill be more due to the belief in black superiority than it is in the actual superiority. The evaporation of white sprinters and white sprint performances is largely due to the fact that they are not developed. Not every 22flat 200 meter kid is incapable of progessing to sub 20flat.... but the 20.6 kid will get the nod.... when it is a matter of fact that some kids at 22flat have more potential for sub20 than many 20.6... the same goes for the 10.7 kid vice the 10.3 kid... kids develop at very different rates...
Nevertheless you are right in one thing.. until the performances of white kids returns to what it once was ... there can only be speculation and no certain grounds for any other belief system to dominate other than the caste system that shapes your perception and that you reinforce....
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I go to a lot of track meets and have been for years. When little bittie black kids are beating little bittie white kids, it's obvious what's going on here. It's very simple. Blacks are simply more adapt at running fast. So if you have 10 black kids and 10 white kids on your track team there is a great chance your sprinters will be the black kids.
It's simply too late to change anyone's mind. We've all seen too many fast black athletes over the years. The blacks came and they conquered, the white athlete couldn't stop them, so it's their own fault.
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 12:23pm |
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I would imagine you have plenty of time to go to track meets.
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 12:27pm |
Originally posted by KD52171
I would imagine you have plenty of time to go to track meets. |
Try it sometime ya might then learn what I have.
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bigman
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 12:29pm |
I go to many track meets as well.. the difference is greatest in the freshman and sophmore years... it attenuates by the senior year but it is still there... agreed... I think I am a very good judge of talent and I do not bias my judgements based on race at all. From my experience there are many many white kids that could be elite level sprinters at both the 100, 200 and 400 races... very many. They typically do not go on and stick with it. ... but they typically do not get the coaching that the 20.6 Highschooler is going to go on to get.
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 12:34pm |
Originally posted by bigman
I go to many track meets as well.. the difference is greatest in the freshman and sophmore years... it attenuates by the senior year but it is still there... agreed... I think I am a very good judge of talent and I do not bias my judgements based on race at all. From my experience there are many many white kids that could be elite level sprinters at both the 100, 200 and 400 races... very many. They typically do not go on and stick with it. ... but they typically do not get the coaching that the 20.6 Highschooler is going to go on to get.
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Go to any list of the top high school sprinters in the nation and you'll find very few white sprinters listed historically speaking. Cal just held their state high school meet .....guess what?
If you read a list of the fastest Cal high schoolers in the 100/200/400 you'll see nothing there but black sprinters. I have no idea what you're lookig at.
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bigman
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Posted: 05 June 2005 at 1:49pm |
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just because a kid can peak and dominate his peers at 17 years old does not mean that they are destined to dominate his peers at 24. that is the point.. sorry it was so hard to explain. California was the home of many great white and black sprinters... dont know what you are looking at?.. or are you just reading the last 20 years of data?
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